2023 Game Thread

[fish16]

Skip has been fireable level bad for over a month. His bullpen usage has been flat out incomprehensible. His consistent insistence on using wendle has been nonsensical, his in game decisions for pinch hitters has been awful. Every fucking move the guy has made for over a month has made 0 fucking sense.

he fucking refuses to use his best relievers ever. Nardi can’t pitch more than 13 fucking pitches tonight because he pitched 23 pitches last night? He hadnt pitched in a full fucking week? If a guy can’t go back to back ever, why the fuck are you going a god damn week without using him? Why the fuck are we consistently losing games with the worst guys in our bullpen leading the way? What the flying fuck is this guy watching? How on earth are you the manager of this team for 4 fucking months this year and you are still using these guys who we know are terrible in these crucial spots? How do you have 0 feel for the abilities of any god damn guy on this team?

[Nick]

Skip has been fireable level bad for over a month. His bullpen usage has been flat out incomprehensible. His consistent insistence on using wendle has been nonsensical, his in game decisions for pinch hitters has been awful. Every fucking move the guy has made for over a month has made 0 fucking sense.

he fucking refuses to use his best relievers ever. Nardi can’t pitch more than 13 fucking pitches tonight because he pitched 23 pitches last night? He hadnt pitched in a full fucking week? If a guy can’t go back to back ever, why the fuck are you going a god damn week without using him? Why the fuck are we consistently losing games with the worst guys in our bullpen leading the way? What the flying fuck is this guy watching? How on earth are you the manager of this team for 4 fucking months this year and you are still using these guys who we know are terrible in these crucial spots? How do you have 0 feel for the abilities of any god damn guy on this team?

It's not been good, but also, getting another arm at the deadline was imperative and it just didn't happen. Our right-handed reliever options outside of Robertson are pathetic.

[Todd]

Eh I kind of like Soriano.

[Namaste]

Luzardo and Lopez gave up 9 ER’s in 4 innings

I don’t think either of them will be on the 25 man in September. Luzardo will go on IL with a real or fake injury and Lopez will get launched. Luzardo has promise. Lopez is awful. Always has been as a Marlin.

[fish16]

It's not been good, but also, getting another arm at the deadline was imperative and it just didn't happen. Our right-handed reliever options outside of Robertson are pathetic.

Soriano is fine. Robertson doesn’t have to just be used as a closer, it is legal for him to come into the game in other situations. Skip has been horrific. There has been no rhyme or reason to any move he has made. He himself has blown or actively put this team in worse positions countless times since the second half started. It just makes 0 sense. The day to day of being a manager is of course a tough job, I have no idea why some of these managers make the in game decisions look so damn hard. We’re 4.5 months into this year, it is simply inexcusable to not have a feel for this team yet. Every single fan knows how these moves are going to go before he makes them and yet he doesn’t somehow?

[Nick]

Soriano the rookie who has bounced between AAA and the majors this year and is completely untested as a late innings guy. That’s the name you guys are going to throw out? You’re right no need to bring in another arm.

[fish16]

Soriano the rookie who has bounced between AAA and the majors this year and is completely untested as a late innings guy. That’s the name you guys are going to throw out? You’re right no need to bring in another arm.

no one said no need to bring in another righty arm. The original point is that skip has been horrific in almost every aspect of managing since the all star break. He has had quick hooks for our best pitchers, absurdly long leashes for our worst pitchers, he lets our worst starters try to get an extra inning but wont let sandy go the extra inning, he has given up on numerous games for the sake of a shitty reliever eating innings several times in the second half, he refuses to stop starting wendle even though berti has been much better against righties, he continues to try to play garcia against lefties. He pinch hit a guy who has been fucking awful for close to 2 full years in the 9th inning with a runner on 2nd on tuesday because of Garcia's good history against pressly despite none of the 7 at bats he was basing his decision off of coming in the last 6 years. then he lets Wendle hit instead of berti. It is nonsense move after nonsense move. And it's not just complaining after the fact. these are moves that make 0 sense at the time they are made. And it's been going on for a month straight. His options out of the pen arent great at times. He is still making the wrong choices every single time for a full month. It has been so much worse than Mattingly when he was fine for the first few months of the year. His decisions have made 0 sense for weeks upon weeks.

[lou]

no one said no need to bring in another righty arm. The original point is that skip has been horrific in almost every aspect of managing since the all star break. He has had quick hooks for our best pitchers, absurdly long leashes for our worst pitchers, he lets our worst starters try to get an extra inning but wont let sandy go the extra inning, he has given up on numerous games for the sake of a shitty reliever eating innings several times in the second half, he refuses to stop starting wendle even though berti has been much better against righties, he continues to try to play garcia against lefties. He pinch hit a guy who has been fucking awful for close to 2 full years in the 9th inning with a runner on 2nd on tuesday because of Garcia's good history against pressly despite none of the 7 at bats he was basing his decision off of coming in the last 6 years. then he lets Wendle hit instead of berti. It is nonsense move after nonsense move. And it's not just complaining after the fact. these are moves that make 0 sense at the time they are made. And it's been going on for a month straight. His options out of the pen arent great at times. He is still making the wrong choices every single time for a full month. It has been so much worse than Mattingly when he was fine for the first few months of the year. His decisions have made 0 sense for weeks upon weeks.

You need to calm down per usual.

Big picture, the front office has bestowed onto him Wendle, Fortes, Stallings, Yuli, and Garcia, and before that Segura and Cooper, and then filled in roster spots with likely AAAA guys with Hampson and Davis or fringe prospects like Myers or Burdick. First for the offense, when 40%+ of your bats aren't good, your hands are tied. This has improved with Bell and Burger and some guys getting healthy, but how is one to manage when you have a shit sandwich? Can you make a what you consider a correct move when we're talking guys with expected .600 OPS are primary options for at least 2 starters per day and main bench bats?

This also goes for the pitching, which has generally been very good this year, but Luzardo is clearly hurt now or having some dead arm period as he's never thrown this much before, Cabrera needed to bet sent down to recalibrate him impacting innings at the MLB level for everyone, Brazoban got hurt, Chargois got hurt, Puk has the yips, Lopez is ineffective, Cueto is Cueto, etc. I (and others) have been saying this since May, they have innings issues and that was *with* getting Rogers back eventually which hasn't happened. They didn't do anything major about it besides Robertson. All of this impacts day to day survival in getting innings and guys in the best spot. Complaining about granular moves when half your staff is a mess because guys are hurt, over worked, or not good, isn't really the issue IMO. Managerial moves CAN'T be viewed good or efficient when the deck is stacked against you with as exactly as you say - the pen options aren't great. As we've talked about, you're not a doctor and you don't know how these guys are feeling or if they need a day to bounce back. What you consider player availability may not be realistic. You get so fired up about these things you literally have no internal knowledge about. I can't blame Skip too much for trying to manage innings and availability, and ultimately, some of these moves might not even be his call (see Weathers game for sure. That seems like a FO move to me).

You're looking for a scapegoat when the more basic answer is, the team is much better than the last few years and a borderline wild card contender right now, but the team is lacking many MLB options right now. It looks like they needed to get another SP at minimum with Luzardo and Cabrera not throwing high innings right now at the MLB level. The trickle down effect of that right now is really difficult. They also need to add two of the MiLB bats over the fleeting veterans to shake it up but we don't need to rehash that as we all agree why aren't Edwards, Amaya, or Hampson being given a shot?

Don't get me wrong here, some Skip moves have been confusing, but your anger level is at a 9 when it should be much lower based on what he has to work with. That is all I am saying here. The guy doesn't have a lot to work with right now with what is going on. And that's not his fault. All eyes on Bruce in the offseason to give Kim the resources to make this work, and until then, hopefully they can cling on, not get killed this west coast trip, and get hot to stay in it.

[lou]

Luzardo and Lopez gave up 9 ER’s in 4 innings

I don’t think either of them will be on the 25 man in September. Luzardo will go on IL with a real or fake injury and Lopez will get launched. Luzardo has promise. Lopez is awful. Always has been as a Marlin.

Luzardo is too important to not play him, but he should get a start off for sure to recalibrate. Even if it is just mental. Hopefully he is not more hurt as he was still throwing 97+ yesterday.

This is what they have without Lopez assuming everyone is healthy. Nance has 9.2 IP in A/AA, so he's probably up in another 3-4 appearances and they can play the call up/down game with Cabrera, Brazoban, Soriano, Hoeing, Weathers, and maybe even Eury (to skip 1 start somewhere) to just cycle those last 3-4 guys so that last pitcher spot is always a fresh arm.

Sandy, Cabrera, Eury, Luzardo, Garrett, Cueto
Robertson, Chargois, Nance, Brazoban (Soriano, Hoeing)
Puk, Scott, Okert, Nardi (Weathers, Simpson)

They could really use a healthy Rogers and Meyer right now which sucks.

[lou]

Which should tell you just how mediocre dlc is considering bell doesn’t have defensive value and had a really bad end to last year and a super bad and unlucky start to this year. You’re comparing a bad stretch for bell compared to DLC’s career. Dlc is a career 104 wrc+ that is heavily weighted by a month last September that was not representative of what he actually has been for the other 2.5 years of his career. Even with the down end to last year and beginning of this year and a terrible pandemic year, bell is still a career 115 wrc+.

Dlc is not close to good enough as a hitter to put up with how bad he is at every other aspect of the game

I hope you can appreciate the conflict in worrying about Bell opting out of $16.5m and how it would be a severe blow to the Marlins next year if he does that, while DLC has out performed him for $700k annual salaries their last 1100 PA so it isn't going to be insane to use that $16.5 to replace the production wherever on the team. Since DLC is so replaceable and all. Especially as stated, if Soler is then given a qualifying offer if Bell opts out, he would be relatively forced to take just like Joc Pederson last year. I really can't imagine Bell OR Soler on this team next year. They'll have one of them, so this shouldn't be a problem for you.

This is all fine and you should just chill - the team is struggling. You don't need to Beautiful Mind this to try and find a problem. You may be right that DLC ends up being a solid bench outfielder because the defense has just cratered so much its hard to play him a lot in the field, but that is fine as he's cheap and has some upside still if he can get his barrel rate back up if he can get find some patience as he ages. There isn't much more to say about this despite the multiple posts per week about how he is so terrible yet then does good things. This team has at least 6-8 roster spots to improve upon before getting to DLC - and then he still has 2 options so they can send him down next year and just sit on him, etc. He should be going nowhere for years is what I am saying unless the bottom drops out and we're a long ways to getting to Garcia territory here.

They should be calling up at least two of Amaya, Hampson, and Edwards to replace Wendle and Garcia. That easy here.

[lou]

Eh I kind of like Soriano.

xFIP 4.53, so he is getting a bit lucky. Looks like a real beneficial HR rate and .247 BABIP right now that is not sustainable.

But if that's your 10th-12th reliever out of the bullpen effectively, that's a great arm for that spot. Hopefully he can keep throwing the magic he is doing.

[fish16]

You need to calm down per usual.

Big picture, the front office has bestowed onto him Wendle, Fortes, Stallings, Yuli, and Garcia, and before that Segura and Cooper, and then filled in roster spots with likely AAAA guys with Hampson and Davis or fringe prospects like Myers or Burdick. First for the offense, when 40%+ of your bats aren't good, your hands are tied. This has improved with Bell and Burger and some guys getting healthy, but how is one to manage when you have a shit sandwich? Can you make a what you consider a correct move when we're talking guys with expected .600 OPS are primary options for at least 2 starters per day and main bench bats?

This also goes for the pitching, which has generally been very good this year, but Luzardo is clearly hurt now or having some dead arm period as he's never thrown this much before, Cabrera needed to bet sent down to recalibrate him impacting innings at the MLB level for everyone, Brazoban got hurt, Chargois got hurt, Puk has the yips, Lopez is ineffective, Cueto is Cueto, etc. I (and others) have been saying this since May, they have innings issues and that was *with* getting Rogers back eventually which hasn't happened. They didn't do anything major about it besides Robertson. All of this impacts day to day survival in getting innings and guys in the best spot. Complaining about granular moves when half your staff is a mess because guys are hurt, over worked, or not good, isn't really the issue IMO. Managerial moves CAN'T be viewed good or efficient when the deck is stacked against you with as exactly as you say - the pen options aren't great. As we've talked about, you're not a doctor and you don't know how these guys are feeling or if they need a day to bounce back. What you consider player availability may not be realistic. You get so fired up about these things you literally have no internal knowledge about. I can't blame Skip too much for trying to manage innings and availability, and ultimately, some of these moves might not even be his call (see Weathers game for sure. That seems like a FO move to me).

You're looking for a scapegoat when the more basic answer is, the team is much better than the last few years and a borderline wild card contender right now, but the team is lacking many MLB options right now. It looks like they needed to get another SP at minimum with Luzardo and Cabrera not throwing high innings right now at the MLB level. The trickle down effect of that right now is really difficult. They also need to add two of the MiLB bats over the fleeting veterans to shake it up but we don't need to rehash that as we all agree why aren't Edwards, Amaya, or Hampson being given a shot?

Don't get me wrong here, some Skip moves have been confusing, but your anger level is at a 9 when it should be much lower based on what he has to work with. That is all I am saying here. The guy doesn't have a lot to work with right now with what is going on. And that's not his fault. All eyes on Bruce in the offseason to give Kim the resources to make this work, and until then, hopefully they can cling on, not get killed this west coast trip, and get hot to stay in it.

Being stuck with a bunch of shit at the end of the roster doesnt excuse his decision making. those 2 things are not mutually exclusive. He has blown several games himself since the all star break with his decision making in games. He has good players to work with. Just because he wasnt handed the 27 yankees doesnt make him immune to severe heat when he is making absurd decisions game in and game out. Nardi hadnt pitched in a full week before tuesday, then throws 13 pitches yesterday, gets into slight trouble, and we go to jorge fucking lopez who he then allows to blow the game open with 3 walks and 2 more hits while recording a single out.

Or how about the night before when there is 0 reason to leave cueto in for 1 more inning and he predictably gives up yet another homer. And then they try to comeback and he allows Garcia and Wendle to hit with the game on the line in the 9th when he has gurriel and berti on the bench.

Hell even the game they came back against the yankees he left brazoban out there for no fucking reason for 2.2 innings where he gave up 2 hits, 3 walks, and 3 runs for them to blow the game open the day after sandy pitched a complete game and the bullpen was completely rested.

Or how about the game in texas when he let ryan fucking weathers pitch 3.2 innings with 4 walks, 6 hits, and 6 runs in a close game for 95 fucking pitches.

Or how about the game where sandy was cruising against the phillies and he puts in robertson for the 9th.

He has been an abject disaster for over a month now. You can try to defend it and say that he is not the sole reason, no shit, but it is impossible to deny that almost every single move he has made for weeks have actively hurt this team. He has made terrible pitching moves, terrible lineup moves, given up on games he shouldnt have given up on. It has been a disaster for the entire second half.

[fish16]

I hope you can appreciate the conflict in worrying about Bell opting out of $16.5m and how it would be a severe blow to the Marlins next year if he does that, while DLC has out performed him for $700k annual salaries their last 1100 PA so it isn't going to be insane to use that $16.5 to replace the production wherever on the team. Since DLC is so replaceable and all. Especially as stated, if Soler is then given a qualifying offer if Bell opts out, he would be relatively forced to take just like Joc Pederson last year. I really can't imagine Bell OR Soler on this team next year. They'll have one of them, so this shouldn't be a problem for you.

This is all fine and you should just chill - the team is struggling. You don't need to Beautiful Mind this to try and find a problem. You may be right that DLC ends up being a solid bench outfielder because the defense has just cratered so much its hard to play him a lot in the field, but that is fine as he's cheap and has some upside still if he can get his barrel rate back up if he can get find some patience as he ages. There isn't much more to say about this despite the multiple posts per week about how he is so terrible yet then does good things. This team has at least 6-8 roster spots to improve upon before getting to DLC - and then he still has 2 options so they can send him down next year and just sit on him, etc. He should be going nowhere for years is what I am saying unless the bottom drops out and we're a long ways to getting to Garcia territory here.

They should be calling up at least two of Amaya, Hampson, and Edwards to replace Wendle and Garcia. That easy here.

Josh Bell's last 3 full non pandemic years of WAR are 1.9 in 647 PA with a 123 WRC+, 1.9 in 568 PA's with a 119 WRC+, and 2.9 WAR in 613 PA's with a 135 WRC+. Those also factor in his defensive negative value where he started 133 games at 1b in 2019, 116 in 2021, and 117 games there last year, so as a DH you're talking a hugely impactful hitter and an even higher war.

DLC for his career is 2.4 WAR in 1060 PA's and a 104 WRC+ that is again, whether you want to admit it or not, heavily weighted by a 3 week run unlike anything he actually has been in baseball before or since that period. He'd probably be a below average hitter for his career without that stretch in september. He is not this good hitter, i dont know how you continue to think of him as this positive hitter. He has a 99 WRC+ this year. He has 0 idea of the strike zone. He doesnt walk. He strikes out a ton. He isnt fast. He is a terrible base runner. He is a horrendous fielder. Open your eyes and stop trying to justify your absurd breakout take. He's not breaking out. Just as i told you in the offseason, look at his numbers by year in the minor. This is who he is. He's not a good player. His minor league career is a .743 OPS in 1860 ab's. His major league career is .742 OPS in 975 at bats. You have to be a fool to continue to think of him as anything other than a mediocre hitter who is terrible at every other aspect of baseball.

Also, the defense hasnt cratered this year, he was a terrible defender last year as well.

[lou]

Josh Bell's last 3 full non pandemic years of WAR are 1.9 in 647 PA with a 123 WRC+, 1.9 in 568 PA's with a 119 WRC+, and 2.9 WAR in 613 PA's with a 135 WRC+. Those also factor in his defensive negative value where he started 133 games at 1b in 2019, 116 in 2021, and 117 games there last year, so as a DH you're talking a hugely impactful hitter and an even higher war.

DLC for his career is 2.4 WAR in 1060 PA's and a 104 WRC+ that is again, whether you want to admit it or not, heavily weighted by a 3 week run unlike anything he actually has been in baseball before or since that period. He'd probably be a below average hitter for his career without that stretch in september. He is not this good hitter, i dont know how you continue to think of him as this positive hitter. He has a 99 WRC+ this year. He has 0 idea of the strike zone. He doesnt walk. He strikes out a ton. He isnt fast. He is a terrible base runner. He is a horrendous fielder. Open your eyes and stop trying to justify your absurd breakout take. He's not breaking out. Just as i told you in the offseason, look at his numbers by year in the minor. This is who he is. He's not a good player. His minor league career is a .743 OPS in 1860 ab's. His major league career is .742 OPS in 975 at bats. You have to be a fool to continue to think of him as anything other than a mediocre hitter who is terrible at every other aspect of baseball.

Also, the defense hasnt cratered this year, he was a terrible defender last year as well.

It's posts like these which further cement how little you are able to synthesize information. My entire position on DLC is, they should play him for 800-1000 PA and see if they get a breakout ala later 20s Teoscar sort of thing. Not that he will breakout. The analytics say he hit the ball hard, and you play those guys to see what happens. Nothing has changed here, although he has certainly taken a step back this year so its trending to a 3rd/platoon/bench OF only for sure. Also to mention, DLC has 485 PA and you definitely said he would never never get 500 PA because you are a black and white, only absolutes guy, and went back 10 years to try and prove that. When the FO just outright said they are getting him that time. It seems the FO agrees with me here to play him and see what happens.

Just chill my man for once. All of this right now is about one and only one thing - if Bell opts out you said that would be a significant blow to the Marlins, where I am saying why because they will have $16.5m dollars to spend and guys like DLC have out performed him recently (and as you argue, DLC is close to nothing) AND they can give Soler a qualifying offer which is around there which he will be forced to take. And we like Soler I hope. This isn't rocket science. DLC is fine for his roll on this team especially at CC prices under $1m. They'll have Bell or Soler or a boatload of money next year to replace them if not. This is all fine. These aren't the problems with the team.

[lou]

Being stuck with a bunch of shit at the end of the roster doesnt excuse his decision making. those 2 things are not mutually exclusive. He has blown several games himself since the all star break with his decision making in games. He has good players to work with. Just because he wasnt handed the 27 yankees doesnt make him immune to severe heat when he is making absurd decisions game in and game out. Nardi hadnt pitched in a full week before tuesday, then throws 13 pitches yesterday, gets into slight trouble, and we go to jorge fucking lopez who he then allows to blow the game open with 3 walks and 2 more hits while recording a single out.

Or how about the night before when there is 0 reason to leave cueto in for 1 more inning and he predictably gives up yet another homer. And then they try to comeback and he allows Garcia and Wendle to hit with the game on the line in the 9th when he has gurriel and berti on the bench.

Hell even the game they came back against the yankees he left brazoban out there for no fucking reason for 2.2 innings where he gave up 2 hits, 3 walks, and 3 runs for them to blow the game open the day after sandy pitched a complete game and the bullpen was completely rested.

Or how about the game in texas when he let ryan fucking weathers pitch 3.2 innings with 4 walks, 6 hits, and 6 runs in a close game for 95 fucking pitches.

Or how about the game where sandy was cruising against the phillies and he puts in robertson for the 9th.

He has been an abject disaster for over a month now. You can try to defend it and say that he is not the sole reason, no shit, but it is impossible to deny that almost every single move he has made for weeks have actively hurt this team. He has made terrible pitching moves, terrible lineup moves, given up on games he shouldnt have given up on. It has been a disaster for the entire second half.

I just can't. All I can say here is, being stuck with a bunch of shit on the roster absolutely influences moves, you don't know the physical and medical conditions of guys to know their availability, and can you prove the front office didn't make him throw Weathers and the FO is not dictating some of these decisions based on wanting to see guys/availability concerns with a call up strategy. They have a lot of problems right now and going nuclear that Skip is operating at a fireable level when there are other things happening is BEYOND DRAMATIC.