2018/2019 Offseason Thread

[lou]

Right. That's kind of my point. We were saying "it's a good problem to have" with Tucker or Verdugo, but "we have to flip him" if it's Nimmo. Ideally you'd rather get good players at positions of need, but if you deem the value worthwhile with this Mets package, I wouldn't be against keeping Nimmo.

Nimmo seems kind of perfect as you can trade him easily after his 2018, or just keep him as he has the 5 years of control. Punting to 2020 doesn't hurt. I'm in either camp. Trade or keep. So yea, that works.

Conforto, you'd move immediately and maximize his return on his controllable years.

[rmc523]

Right. That's kind of my point. We were saying "it's a good problem to have" with Tucker or Verdugo, but "we have to flip him" if it's Nimmo. Ideally you'd rather get good players at positions of need, but if you deem the value worthwhile with this Mets package, I wouldn't be against keeping Nimmo.


I guess that could change things, but I still don't know that you're getting equal value, and you're probably not getting a surplus of value. So for arguments sake, let's say you're getting equal value in the flip. If you don't think Nimmo is valuable enough as the biggest piece, why do that trade to begin with?

I don't know if it's that they'd plan on trading for Nimmo in order to immediately acquire someone else because they don't like Nimmo. I'd assume they'd be happy to keep him if he is indeed a main piece for Realmuto, BUT, they may feel they can flip him for something they value MORE, that's what we're seeing.

In other words, I'd assume it's like this - they like him to acquire him, and wouldn't have a problem keeping him. They don't have to trade him, but CAN if they get other pieces they like.

[tjfla]

I don't know if it's that they'd plan on trading for Nimmo in order to immediately acquire someone else because they don't like Nimmo. I'd assume they'd be happy to keep him if he is indeed a main piece for Realmuto, BUT, they may feel they can flip him for something they value MORE, that's what we're seeing.

In other words, I'd assume it's like this - they like him to acquire him, and wouldn't have a problem keeping him. They don't have to trade him, but CAN if they get other pieces they like.

Exactly. They don't have to flip him but have called teams asking if they are interested in him and what would they give(Doing Homework). The reasoning is 2019 means NOTHING to them and in 2020 they will have VV/Harrison/Brinson/Miller/Sierra/Nimmo/Harold Ramirez in the OF,if a team says ya we want him and will give u a solid SP and IF bat they would probably listen.

[Erick]

Passan saying his extension makes it more likely they deal Kluber or Bauer. Give me Nimmo + in a flip for Kluber.

LOL

[fish16]

LOL

do you ever post anything of substance any more?

[Erick]

do you ever post anything of substance any more?

The Marlins aren’t getting Corey Kluber. Stop being delusional.

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Do you ever stop sipping the kool-aid?

[fish16]

The Marlins aren’t getting Corey Kluber. Stop being delusional.

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Do you ever stop sipping the kool-aid?

I never said they were getting him. I said id look into a flip of nimmo + for him if i were running the team. Also, I dont know how many things i have to criticize from the front office before you realize im not sipping the kool aid and youre just overly negative just because were not a contender a year into a rebuild we all knew would take a few years.

[Erick]

I never said they were getting him. I said id look into a flip of nimmo + for him if i were running the team. Also, I dont know how many things i have to criticize from the front office before you realize im not sipping the kool aid and youre just overly negative just because were not a contender a year into a rebuild we all knew would take a few years.

Absolutely ridiculous to think this front office is that creative.
Furthermore, this front office has shown zero willingness in acquiring proven players via trade. Why do you think they'd even be interested in Kluber at this stage of their great "build?"

They're trading more valuable assets under team control like Yelich and Realmuto to improve the farm/depth, but now you think they're going to turn around and trade assets for a 32-year-old pitcher when they're a lock for last place? Kluber's salary is about to increase to about 17-18 million a year, as well. The Marlins probably won't spend that in total this offseason.

This front office is only doing minor league signings/1 year deals this offseason, I bet. Which frankly I don't mind considering they're going to suck for at least another couple of years.

I've already told you this, but just because it's year 2 doesn't mean this team is any closer than it was in year 1 of Jeter's awesome "build." The franchise has been gutted of proven talent, and they'll probably be just as bad, if not worse, than their 98-loss team last year. This team isn't close and won't be trading for the Kluber's of the world any time soon. Anyone not sipping the kool-aid can see that.

[fish16]

Absolutely ridiculous to think this front office is that creative.
Furthermore, this front office has shown zero willingness in acquiring proven players via trade. Why do you think they'd even be interested in Kluber at this stage of their great "build?"

They're trading more valuable assets under team control like Yelich and Realmuto to improve the farm/depth, but now you think they're going to turn around and trade assets for a 32-year-old pitcher when they're a lock for last place? Kluber's salary is about to increase to about 17-18 million a year, as well. The Marlins probably won't spend that in total this offseason.

This front office is only doing minor league signings/1 year deals this offseason, I bet. Which frankly I don't mind considering they're going to suck for at least another couple of years.

I've already told you this, but just because it's year 2 doesn't mean this team is any closer than it was in year 1 of Jeter's awesome "build." The franchise has been gutted of proven talent, and they'll probably be just as bad, if not worse, than their 98-loss team last year. This team isn't close and won't be trading for the Kluber's of the world any time soon. Anyone not sipping the kool-aid can see that.

Again, i never said they'd do it, i said its the type of flip id look for if we were able to get Nimmo and Rosario. Not sure how many times i have to say that before you stop wasting time misconstruing my argument.

And again, with the right moves this team has been set up to be fringe wild card contender at best in 2020 (similar to the phillies last year where they are in it but fade at the end of the year) and then ideally a contender in the future past that with a sustainable roster, not just a one time flukey team like any previous success this organization would have had. Just because you dont see it yet doesnt make it not true. If they nail the JT deal (getting a top hitting prospect/young player and a potential top of the rotation arm) they will have done a great job in turning around a team and specifically a farm system that had 0 shot of contending any time in the next 3-4 years when they first took over. The rebuild would still have a ways to go, but if you cant see how much closer this entire organization is as a whole compared to the loria years i suggest you do some more research into the way this organization was run under jeter and the improvements in every facet of the organization that the new ownership has shown a commitment to. Perhaps its not my kool aid but rather your now 5 month child like tantrum since the trade deadline.

[Erick]

Again, i never said they'd do it, i said its the type of flip id look for if we were able to get Nimmo and Rosario. Not sure how many times i have to say that before you stop wasting time misconstruing my argument.

And again, with the right moves this team has been set up to be fringe wild card contender at best in 2020 (similar to the and then ideally a contender in the future past that. Just because you dont see it yet doesnt make it true. If they nail the JT deal (getting a top hitting prospect/young player and a potential top of the rotation arm) they will have done a great job in turning around a franchise that had 0 shot of contending any time in the next 3-4 years when they first took over. The rebuild would still have a ways to go, but if you cant see how much closer this entire organization is as a whole compared to the loria years i suggest you do some more research into the way this organization was run under jeter and the improvements in every facet of the organization that the new ownership has shown a commitment too. Perhaps its not my kool aid but rather your now 5 month child like tantrum since the trade deadline.

Yeah, you're right. This team is a lot closer now than they were with Loria.

Under Loria, they had a talented core with the worst farm system in baseball.
Under Jeter, they now have no proven talent to build around with a middle of the pack, at best, farm system.

They weren't close under Loria, and they're not close under Jeter. Both guys suck. Keep dreaming about that wildcard in 2020 though.

I get that past ownership sucked and it was proven that that group probably wasn't going to win anything. That, however, doesn't take away from the fact that there was a core group of players in place at least (2 of whom have now won an MVP). Heading into 2019, who are the core players we're building around? Hint, not a single player on the 40-man after Realmuto is traded has proven to be that type of player. So I'm dying to know how you think we could possibly be wildcard contenders as soon as 2020.

Keep in mind that the division won't be getting any worse the next couple of years.

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If everything goes according to plan, perhaps the franchise will be competitive by 2022 around there.

[dim]

Thank you Erick for bringing some reality to the conversation. Never forget this is a team that had the 2017/2018 league MVP's in still couldn't find a way to finish over .500 in the years they were here.

Not to mention the NL East has become one of the toughest divisions in baseball and the Marlins are clearly the only team not trying to compete in it.

[Erick]

Thank you Erick for bringing some reality to the conversation. Never forget this is a team that had the 2017/2018 league MVP's in still couldn't find a way to finish over .500 in the years they were here.

Yeah but now without those guys (and Jose Fernandez by the way), we might compete now for a wildcard as soon as 2020 because we’re being led by Lewis Brinson. Order your rings.

[fish16]

Yeah, you're right. This team is a lot closer now than they were with Loria.

Under Loria, they had a talented core with the worst farm system in baseball.
Under Jeter, they now have no proven talent to build around with a middle of the pack, at best, farm system.

They weren't close under Loria, and they're not close under Jeter. Both guys suck. Keep dreaming about that wildcard in 2020 though.

I get that past ownership sucked and it was proven that that group probably wasn't going to win anything. That, however, doesn't take away from the fact that there was a core group of players in place at least (2 of whom have now won an MVP). Heading into 2019, who are the core players we're building around? Hint, not a single player on the 40-man after Realmuto is traded has proven to be that type of player. So I'm dying to know how you think we could possibly be wildcard contenders as soon as 2020.

Keep in mind that the division won't be getting any worse for the next couple of years.

I think you severely overrate how talented that "core" was. We gave away 2 stars (1 purely because of his salary), had another guy who clearly overachieved and was a clear regression candidate in Ozuna, and Dee was overrated beyond belief his entire time here. From that "core group of players in place" that we were still a complete trainwreck with- Dee- juiced for a year, got a huge contract, and was never nearly as good as he was made out to be and his type of player is a dying breed in this game. Ozuna- had 1 year where he was anything more than above average and completely regressed back to above average the second we traded him. also was going to leave us in free agency and could never put together a full year. He's also going to now leave the cardinals in free agency for a deal we never would have been able to afford. Stanton- was injury plagued every single year other than the mvp year and not sure how were still debating that move considering its abundantly clear how much that deal would have crippled a team like the marlins in the latter years of the deal. IF you want to blame someone for Stanton being moved, blame Loria for giving him that contract.

Yelich is a fair criticism but that deal is still early and we should get 3 long term full time starting lineup pieces out of it which is exactly what they were trying to do in a system that was completely bereft of talent due to loria, albeit they probably rushed last offseason rather than waiting another year and doing it this year but Yelich was also being a pain in the ass in the clubhouse and they probably just wanted a clean break from that group of players. And then you have JT who we are going to get a big return for in the next week.

You keep saying there was this core group of players, but the core group of players aside from Yelich either had no chance of ever staying here because of the contract in Stanton and 2 players who were either completely overrated consistently during their time here (Dee) or got sold at the height of their value and immediately regressed once not surrounded by 2 MVP's (ozuna). Essentially, you're completely overrating the shit out of a core that was not only thoroughly mediocre but was truly completely fucked in terms of any competitive future because Jeffrey Loria is a complete and utter buffoon.

And I think we can be fringe wild card contenders in 2020 with smart free agent signings over the next 2 years because you continue to discredit the SP depth that we have built over the past year or so and the ability of us to make smart free agent signings now because we have cleared future salary restrictions out of the way except for Chen and now have a core of promising young players who are also under team control for the foreseeable future. We might not have a forrest whitley type prospect but we have at least 7-8 guys who all realistically have at least #3/4 SP potential (and some with more and all under team control for 6 years) and I think you continually discount how important it is that you at the very least are throwing good major league arms out there and not having that 1-2 games every time through the rotation where you are throwing out a AAA pitcher out there like fucking Despaigne, Nicolino, Peters, Locke and many other trash names we've thrown out there consistently. If we had this type of SP depth when those "Core hitters" were here we would have actually made the playoffs a few times and would not have needed to go through this rebuild in the first place..

[Erick]

There’s nothing special about SP depth. For starters, there’s ZERO top tier SP in the system unless if you think Alcantara is that guy, but, realistically, nobody really thinks that. There’s zero top-tier anything in the system, really. Is there a can’t miss prospect in the system?

Compare our SP depth to the SP depth of other teams and you’ll see there’s nothing special going on.

I’m not criticizing the Stanton move, and sure I guess you can make a case that it’s too soon on the Yelich trade (even though if he remains a yearly MVP candidate under that contract, it really sucks regardless).

Either way, the core that had been put together before was more exciting than whatever we have now is my point. Maybe these players develop into something great, but you expecting that to happen as soon as 2020 is, again, truly delusional. I’d make a board bet with you but I know you don’t like to do those type of things, so whatever.

[fish16]

Thank you Erick for bringing some reality to the conversation. Never forget this is a team that had the 2017/2018 league MVP's in still couldn't find a way to finish over .500 in the years they were here.

Not to mention the NL East has become one of the toughest divisions in baseball and the Marlins are clearly the only team not trying to compete in it.

Do you guys really still not understand that they couldnt finish over .500 because they were being run like they had the money and resources of the yankees and the farm system of the braves when in reality they had the money of the marlins and had the farm systems of the angels because Jeffrey Loria couldnt help himself rather than doing the most obvious thing in the world and running this team like any small market team should be doing?

You guys continue to act like we traded these guys away because they were cheap and just wanted to make the profit off a team when almost every action in rebuilding the organization has shown they are committed to winning, just doing it in a smart and sustainable method with a long term plan rather then planning year to year and having a complete and utter moron making up said plan.

The number 1 reason above all why this rebuild will work out, whether it is in the time frame i think or the time frame you think, is because this team finally has a consistent plan and message that has proven to work in baseball and suits the market we are in and have an ownership and front office that is committed to this plan rather than chasing the next shiny object like a cat with a laser like Loria would do consistently.