2022-2023 Offseason Thread

[fish16]

He also crushes lefties and does so consistently and we were horrendous against lefties last year

[Erick]

Wendle/Rojas seems like the perfect platoon but also seems like something this franchise would never do.

Rojas will probably be traded for some guy we’ll never hear about again and the fans will be happy because he blocked everyone on Twitter or something.

[lou]

Good signing, but also wouldn’t be at all surprised if he’s the latest guy to come here and start opsing.650. I think it signals a Rojas or wendle trade, though a Rojas wendle platoon at ss would probably produce good results. Overall good signing, but I have to see it to believe it with any hitter this team signs in free agency

Maybe.

They should still sign Longoria and trade for Rosario. I can get behind this infield quickly.

Cooper, Longoria
Jazz (Segura)
Rosario, Rojas
Segura (Longoria)

That's shooting out Wendle to Boston for prospects and Berti is shot out for prospects wherever.

Cleveland has gotta be OK with a prospect package for 1 year of Rosario and use all of that for an OF? They can replace him easily internally with their depth.

Sign Cueto, blow it out for Reynolds/Bednar? LFG?

[Erick]

Maybe.

They should still sign Longoria and trade for Rosario. I can get behind this infield quickly.

Cooper, Longoria
Jazz (Segura)
Rosario, Rojas
Segura (Longoria)

That's shooting out Wendle to Boston for prospects and Berti is shot out for prospects wherever.

Cleveland has gotta be OK with a prospect package for 1 year of Rosario and use all of that for an OF? They can replace him easily internally with their depth.

Sign Cueto, blow it out for Reynolds/Bednar? LFG?

Don’t really understand why Longoria specifically, or even why Rosario is a primary target at this point.

We really need a CF’er already.

[lou]

Don’t really understand why Longoria specifically, or even why Rosario is a primary target at this point.

We really need a CF’er already.

Of course they need a CF but they didn’t trade for an Arizona guy or sign Nimmo or Kiermaier. They aren’t available, absent Michael Taylor which is why that’s a good idea to flip out Wendle to Boston and use that as an excuse to trade for Taylor which just moves Wendle’s production to CF as Taylor is a pretty OK 1.5 WAR guy you can start against lefties and some righties.

You still trade for Reynolds here also which is the only path to contending getting someone of his level. And that’s the imperfect CF solution.

And then you still need multiple upgrades (High leverage RP (Bednar), replace a SP lost in Pirates trade (Cueto, Civale, Brubaker), and you need a 1B/3B type to help Cooper and help cover the IF as my philosophy on baseball is you need five guys to play 2B-SS-3B and Jazz, one of Wendle/Rojas, and Segura are locks, leaving two spots for a 1B/3B (Longo) and TBD infielder (Berti or upgrade). I don’t think entering the year with Leblanc or Groshans the real backup 1B starter is a good idea you know?

and that’s where Rosario comes in. You *still* need a major upgrade on this team to be able to challenge the Phillies so you can’t do anything at C (Fortes + none available because Jays traded one), 2B (Jazz), 3B (Segura + Groshans), LF (Reynolds + DLC/Sanchez), CF (Taylor + some Reynolds + none available), RF (Garcia), DH (Soler), SP (Sandy, Pablo, Rogers/Luzardo, Cabrera, Garret, Cueto/Brubaker/Wacha kind of guy), and RP (no one that moves needle after getting a Bednar type).

So who is a 3+ WAR 1B or SS that someone could trade across baseball to effectively replace Cooper or Berti on the roster? If you go up and down the league, Rosario is the best bet here IMO. I also think Andrew Vaughn might be interesting but we’re paying for projection there. Plus, Rosario becomes a 5-6 year option as you can sign him more than likely.

This is frankly how far behind they are to contend IMO. Reynolds, Rosario, Longoria, M. Taylor, Bednar, and Cueto…. And only losing Luzardo/Rogers, Wendle, Berti, and lefty relievers off the active roster. Segura didn’t move the needle much here.

[rmc523]

So no backlash? What matters are Marlins fans and the home town? Who cares at all what other teams fans think about the Marlins FO?

And as stated above, even if Bruce is the larger problem with BS payrolls (which I do believe), she isn't using her assets efficiently to build a cohesive team (see Abreu money scenario above, why did they carry Aguilar/Cooper/Soler, etc.). She's either over valuing the Marlins SP, under valuing other team's players or FA, or a little of both. There is a problem when the only move is Chargois/Edwards in a lopsided Rays just gotta clear the 40 man trade. Especially when this team is this close to being pretty good at an $80m payroll. The only thing I can think about is, they are putting their marbles in the 2024 basket when all the pitching is *ready.* Get through this year without injury, and it's effectively a top 5 staff with top 1 upside on paper at a $60m payroll needing 5-6 bats (with Pablo to trade). That's an even better gameboard than this year *if it happens* so is that what they are waiting for in the perpetual waiting game?

Ultimately, they get till spring training, but nothing inspires confidence. But no one will care if Kim is fired if the team keeps sucking, and they are heading in that direction as a low 70s win team once they jettison veterans for prospects at the deadline. That is of course, assuming they can trade off people at the deadline and not just a RP.

You're confusing a justified firing and public PR/image backlash.

I think she deserves to be let go at this point, regardless of Bruce's cheapness. The moves she has made haven't worked, and the moves she hasn't made are glaring, add to that terrible in-season roster management, and it's not a good body of work.

But if you think there wouldn't be a public/media backlash for the Marlins - already a media punching bag - firing (or even just not renewing her contract a la Hill) the first female GM, then I don't know what to tell you.

[lou]

You're confusing a justified firing and public PR/image backlash.

I think she deserves to be let go at this point, regardless of Bruce's cheapness. The moves she has made haven't worked, and the moves she hasn't made are glaring, add to that terrible in-season roster management, and it's not a good body of work.

But if you think there wouldn't be a public/media backlash for the Marlins - already a media punching bag - firing (or even just not renewing her contract a la Hill) the first female GM, then I don't know what to tell you.

I'm not. Because if she wins 69 games again, it's either because (1) Bruce gave resources and she squandered them - again, or (2) Bruce didn't give resources and no GM can succeed at this budget. In either scenario, this has -nothing- to do with Kim being a woman, and she is either (1) Bad at her job and no one will care, or (2) any backlash is directed solely to Bruce for being a shitty owner and not giving the GM a fighting chance. If you mean this 2nd scenario, then ultimately we agree. Further, if she wins 82 games with real improvement and things look good moving forward, and they don't retain her and she isn't poached for more money, then all bets are off though for sure. I can't imagine that scenario though. I think she gets this and next year to produce a playoff team, but we'll see what happens.

[rmc523]

I'm not. Because if she wins 69 games again, it's either because (1) Bruce gave resources and she squandered them - again, or (2) Bruce didn't give resources and no GM can succeed at this budget. In either scenario, this has -nothing- to do with Kim being a woman, and she is either (1) Bad at her job and no one will care, or (2) any backlash is directed solely to Bruce for being a shitty owner and not giving the GM a fighting chance. If you mean this 2nd scenario, then ultimately we agree. Further, if she wins 82 games with real improvement and things look good moving forward, and they don't retain her and she isn't poached for more money, then all bets are off though for sure. I can't imagine that scenario though. I think she gets this and next year to produce a playoff team, but we'll see what happens.

I don't disagree with your point #2.

I'm just saying I think regardless of the way she eventually exits, it's going to be panned because it's the Marlins. We could win a WS and she decides she wants to retire, and folks would be saying "the Marlins are terrible for getting rid of their WS-winning GM!"

Look at the reaction of not renewing Hill's contract.

[fish16]

According to Morosi they dont yet have a firm plan for where segura plays. I really like the idea of segura at 2b, Jazz at SS and just fill that long term and hope he pans out defensively, sign longoria at 3b, trade one of Wendle/Rojas with the other becoming the super utility/injury prevention backup guy, sign hosmer to a super cheap deal as platoon/backup for Cooper, then trade for Reynolds.

I think the obvious play at SS for a while now for the next few years other than signing a big name like Correa has been just move jazz over. If he can be passable defensively and stay healthy, that's a pretty elite SS and you've just eliminated your biggest need outside of CF. 2b are a lot easier to find on a year to year basis like Wong or Segura etc. All of a sudden, you sign Longoria and Hosmer and trade prospects for Reynolds (i'm talking Meyer and Eder as the main pieces, who knows if that would fly),you're looking at a real team for next year and you can keep pablo and rogers.

C- Fortes
1b- Coop/Hosmer
2b- Segura/Wendle
SS-Jazz
3b- Longoria/Wendle
LF- DLC/Sanchez
CF- Reynolds
RF- hopefully bounceback Garcia
DH- hopefully bounceback Soler

SP- still have Sandy, Luzardo, Pablo, Cabrera, Rogers, with Garrett as option 6 and Eury being ready midseason in case we need to deal pablo for a bat at that point.

Is that a contender for a wildcard? Honestly, with health from jazz and others and not so crazy bouncebacks from Garcia and Soler, i think it might be. We desperately need 1 more backend bullpen arm though. They cant keep relying on these same guys to close out games. They are great middle relievers and some are decent set up men. They are terrible closers.

[lou]

I don't disagree with your point #2.

I'm just saying I think regardless of the way she eventually exits, it's going to be panned because it's the Marlins. We could win a WS and she decides she wants to retire, and folks would be saying "the Marlins are terrible for getting rid of their WS-winning GM!"

Look at the reaction of not renewing Hill's contract.

Panned by Twitter - and other relatively ignoramus Marlins message board posters not on this board - sure. Barry Jackson? No way.

People are pissed because the team has sucked for so long and we now have glimmers of hope. Winning cures all ultimately.

[lou]

According to Morosi they dont yet have a firm plan for where segura plays. I really like the idea of segura at 2b, Jazz at SS and just fill that long term and hope he pans out defensively, sign longoria at 3b, trade one of Wendle/Rojas with the other becoming the super utility/injury prevention backup guy, sign hosmer to a super cheap deal as platoon/backup for Cooper, then trade for Reynolds.

I think the obvious play at SS for a while now for the next few years other than signing a big name like Correa has been just move jazz over. If he can be passable defensively and stay healthy, that's a pretty elite SS and you've just eliminated your biggest need outside of CF. 2b are a lot easier to find on a year to year basis like Wong or Segura etc. All of a sudden, you sign Longoria and Hosmer and trade prospects for Reynolds (i'm talking Meyer and Eder as the main pieces, who knows if that would fly),you're looking at a real team for next year and you can keep pablo and rogers.

C- Fortes
1b- Coop/Hosmer
2b- Segura/Wendle
SS-Jazz
3b- Longoria/Wendle
LF- DLC/Sanchez
CF- Reynolds
RF- hopefully bounceback Garcia
DH- hopefully bounceback Soler

SP- still have Sandy, Luzardo, Pablo, Cabrera, Rogers, with Garrett as option 6 and Eury being ready midseason in case we need to deal pablo for a bat at that point.

Is that a contender for a wildcard? Honestly, with health from jazz and others and not so crazy bouncebacks from Garcia and Soler, i think it might be. We desperately need 1 more backend bullpen arm though. They cant keep relying on these same guys to close out games. They are great middle relievers and some are decent set up men. They are terrible closers.

1 - I cannot stress enough this team can't house two 1B/DH only guys again. There isn't a world Cooper/Hosmer are on the team together absent a Soler trade or something insane happening. It creates the Aguilar/Cooper dilemma again.

2 - Longoria ABSOLUTLEY. He's a HUGE fit right now and I hope this happens. They will have to clear out some other guys, but who cares. They need a 1B/3B type to get a legitimate second 1B option + a 5th 2B/SS/3B option behind Jazz, Segura, one of Wendle/Rojas surely stays, and whoever the 4th infielder turns out to be

3 - I think Rogers/Luzardo/Cabrera and Meyer/Eder + Salas (a RHP, a LHP, and top hitting prospect who is not a DH) is the floor for Reynolds. As I keep speculating, jack them up with Miller/Comp Pick and something else also and get Bednar. It hurts, but you need a reliever and just sign Cueto/Wacha who will throw 100+ innings so you've essentially replaced everything traded off the MLB roster here and added a beast in Reynolds. They are just prospects Kim. Send them 5 good ones and Rogers/Luzardo.

Fortes, Stallings
Cooper (Longoria)
Jazz, ______
Rojas
Segura, Longoria
Reynolds, DLC
______
Garcia
Soler

Sandy, Pablo, Rogers/Luzardo, Cabrera, Garrett, Cueto/Wacha
Bednar, Floro, Chargois, Enright
Scott, Bleier, Okert

So you could just keep Wendle and Berti and shuffle the positions as you may here (Berti/Soler the backup OF, etc.), and that's a $115m team. Or get real weird and drop Jazz in CF and then all those infielders make a ton of sense. Practically, the smart play might be do what I mentioned and trade for Michael Taylor to start 100 games in CF and keep Berti for the infield, that's probably closer to $110m team, but that team makes cohesive defensive and splits sense top to bottom. Yes I know Taylor is uninspiring, but he is a plus starter vs LHP and defensively holds his own against righties. He's good for 90+ starts and let Reynolds do the rest in CF.

This team absolutely needs a big upgrade to get to "Philadelphia on paper" (turning Cooper or Rojas into a 3+ WAR player, cough Rosario), but I do think that team can get you to July and reassess what Eury is doing and pick up this addition then. Mostly everything will have to go right, but this at least inspires confidence they have a plan versus right now which is far behind the 6th and 7th best teams in the NL and no shot at the playoffs.

[fish16]

Mish says the complete opposite and says that we will likely start Segura at 3b. I guess it doesnt really matter if the 3 players are going to be Wendle, Jazz, and Segura, but long term i think it makes too much sense given how little they want to ever spend in free agency to see if jazz can lock down SS long term. It's a lot easier to find quality production from 2b than it is a SS when you take into consideration the money. Unless they are super high on Cappe, Salas, Lewis, Watson and think they will rise faster than I think they will, i think at least trying jazz there is worth it. What's the downside? He cant stick defensively and they have to move him back? That's why you keep a wendle/rojas and just adjust on the fly.

Mish also says if we trade pitching we are adamant about getting back major league talent, not prospects. Which obviously makes sense. I still think Rosario as a free agent to be for a guy like Fulton and trading the farm for reynolds, then signing hosmer as a backup 1b is the way to go. At this point, i'm not sure what Pablo can bring back, but i still think they should trade him if they can get a guy like Reynolds and limit the return to Rogers or ideally a combo of Meyer and Eder + more quantity of prospects.


I think the reynolds pirates debacle goes into spring training at the least. The marlins of all teams have seen this shit before. Player requests trade. Team has years of control. Team realizes over time they wont convince him to stay and the value is going down by the day. So i think in spring or at the deadline, Reynolds gets dealt. And we have the pieces to make it happen, so it needs to be to us.

[lou]

2023 $6.5 mil
2024 $8.5 mil
2025 $10 mil ($2 million buyout)
2/$17 or 3/$25

This is a real solid contract in a vacuum and ignoring Rojas/Wendle/Berti/Groshans redundancy. Trade out 1-2 of those guys though and this makes a lot of sense. Good job deflecting some money to year three.

[fish16]

1 - I cannot stress enough this team can't house two 1B/DH only guys again. There isn't a world Cooper/Hosmer are on the team together absent a Soler trade or something insane happening. It creates the Aguilar/Cooper dilemma again.

2 - Longoria ABSOLUTLEY. He's a HUGE fit right now and I hope this happens. They will have to clear out some other guys, but who cares. They need a 1B/3B type to get a legitimate second 1B option + a 5th 2B/SS/3B option behind Jazz, Segura, one of Wendle/Rojas surely stays, and whoever the 4th infielder turns out to be

3 - I think Rogers/Luzardo/Cabrera and Meyer/Eder + Salas (a RHP, a LHP, and top hitting prospect who is not a DH) is the floor for Reynolds. As I keep speculating, jack them up with Miller/Comp Pick and something else also and get Bednar. It hurts, but you need a reliever and just sign Cueto/Wacha who will throw 100+ innings so you've essentially replaced everything traded off the MLB roster here and added a beast in Reynolds. They are just prospects Kim. Send them 5 good ones and Rogers/Luzardo.

Fortes, Stallings
Cooper (Longoria)
Jazz, ______
Rojas
Segura, Longoria
Reynolds, DLC
______
Garcia
Soler

Sandy, Pablo, Rogers/Luzardo, Cabrera, Garrett, Cueto/Wacha
Bednar, Floro, Chargois, Enright
Scott, Bleier, Okert

So you could just keep Wendle and Berti and shuffle the positions as you may here (Berti/Soler the backup OF, etc.), and that's a $115m team. Or get real weird and drop Jazz in CF and then all those infielders make a ton of sense. Practically, the smart play might be do what I mentioned and trade for Michael Taylor to start 100 games in CF and keep Berti for the infield, that's probably closer to $110m team, but that team makes cohesive defensive and splits sense top to bottom. Yes I know Taylor is uninspiring, but he is a plus starter vs LHP and defensively holds his own against righties. He's good for 90+ starts and let Reynolds do the rest in CF.

This team absolutely needs a big upgrade to get to "Philadelphia on paper" (turning Cooper or Rojas into a 3+ WAR player, cough Rosario), but I do think that team can get you to July and reassess what Eury is doing and pick up this addition then. Mostly everything will have to go right, but this at least inspires confidence they have a plan versus right now which is far behind the 6th and 7th best teams in the NL and no shot at the playoffs.

I completely disagree. Cooper has never stayed healthy. Hosmer is coop insurance. Coop has a magnet in his hand when batting. He is constantly injured. You cannot go into the year without a competent backup plan at 1b. you keep putting longoria as this backup 1b type- he's literally never played a single pitch of 1b in his major league career over 15 seasons. Not sure why you're just penciling him in as a backup 1b. Especially considering he's still pretty decent as a 3b defensively. Hosmer gets a bad wrap because of the contract he signed in SD, but he's still absolutely a competent player. When the alternatives are the constantly injured coop and a guy whose back the team doesnt feel confident in holding up, the team can absolutely carry all 3. It's about competent, quality depth. It's ok to have that. It avoids the Luke WIlliams, Willians Astudillos, Erik Gonzalez, and Billy Hamiltons of the world from having to come up and perform to stay afloat. Good teams have quality depth to survive injuries. If a single jazz injury for a month is going to tank the season, all this talk is meaningless.

If the team can build in a way that is cheap but allows them to sustain injuries, it's a no brainer. Berti and one of Wendle/Rojas is a good backup plan for the middle infield and outfield. Stallings i suppose is decent C backup, they need a backup 1b/DH type and Hosmer is that, and he will not get a significant amount of money.

[Erick]

If the plan is Segura at 3B, that means Rojas is staying. Jazz 2B, Segura 3B, Wendle/Rojas at SS.

If one of the 4 leaves, I would guess the odd man out is Rojas but there’s a way to make it work with all 4.

I don’t really like Segura at 3B, but it’s probably better than what we had last year (not saying much).

Jazz at SS would be nice, but his defense at the position has to be concerning.