2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[fish16]

nick said it somewhere last week but nasim nunez is back in the conversation long term. His power will obviously never be there, but if he can get on base like he has been, the speed and defensive profile are enough to be a starter at the ML level. he's still super young though so he will prove it one way or another soon enough.

[lou]

nick said it somewhere last week but nasim nunez is back in the conversation long term. His power will obviously never be there, but if he can get on base like he has been, the speed and defensive profile are enough to be a starter at the ML level. he's still super young though so he will prove it one way or another soon enough.

You know what's probably going to happen when he moves up, AA/AAA/MLB pitchers are going to throw relentless strikes to him so he never walks (the only thing keeping him afloat right now... unless we point to the .376 BABIP) and not fear a mistake will get out of the infield as he has 0 power. He strikes out a lot already in A+ for a guy with no power. If the Marlins get a solid bench infielder 26th man out of him, that'll be great. I'm rooting for him to do that, but let's slow the roll into a longterm conversation for him. He's a fringe prospect that is good defensively. He is two offensive steps forward from thinking about a starter at the ML level - namely cutting the whiffs and playing to his speed. Get Luis Castillo/Juan Pierre in town and teach the kid how to foul off pitches and bunt I say. Maybe, just maybe, they'd end up with a .260/.320/.330 hitter... but if that's coming with out of this world defense and 40+ SB potential and not a high CS rate, you can start imagining a 2.5 WAR player for sure.

[sports24/7]

I’m still looking to trade Pablo even if Meyer has TJ. I’m maybe less inclined to trade Cabrera also, though, and obviously that would take Meyer out of the equation on a trade unless a team like the Pirates doesn’t ding him too much and is willing to wait (that’s obviously unlikely.

[fish16]

I’m still looking to trade Pablo even if Meyer has TJ. I’m maybe less inclined to trade Cabrera also, though, and obviously that would take Meyer out of the equation on a trade unless a team like the Pirates doesn’t ding him too much and is willing to wait (that’s obviously unlikely.

Agreed. Pablo is their best shot at a huge package of bats to improve the lineup and we aren’t resigning him in 2 years anyway with the theoretical depth of starting pitching that we will have. Let him go and get the best package humanly possible to help the lineup.

[rmc523]

Well in their defense, Luzardo, Meyer, and Cabrera have all been hurt pretty much the entire year, and relying on Garrett has turned out to be quite the story. Their 4-5-6 SP are all hurt and 3 (Rogers) and 7 (Hernandez) are ineffective. Garrett as your 8th starting opening day is a surplus. The unfortunate thing here is Rogers has been bad and Garcia/Stallings worse, so everything negative is amplified. The frustration is they are bad and now really hurt, even offensively. It's just a mess.

This team is still in good shape with the payroll flexibility and farm surplus right now. They just have to use it correctly - or at all as payroll is comical. Same story.

Nice opening for Bleday though!

I’m not sure how this point of yours is a defense of them. If anything it reinforces my point of every year they refuse to sign a vet innings eater starter and every year it comes back to bite them when 2-3 of the younger guys are out for weeks on end.

[lou]

I’m not sure how this point of yours is a defense of them. If anything it reinforces my point of every year they refuse to sign a vet innings eater starter and every year it comes back to bite them when 2-3 of the younger guys are out for weeks on end.

I think if you have 8+ viable SP options, this team can't waste resources on another SP. Frankly, if they signed a SP this year we'd all be crying WTF are they doing that with Hernandez in the bullpen and Meyer and Cabrera in AAA. Right?

[lou]

I’m still looking to trade Pablo even if Meyer has TJ. I’m maybe less inclined to trade Cabrera also, though, and obviously that would take Meyer out of the equation on a trade unless a team like the Pirates doesn’t ding him too much and is willing to wait (that’s obviously unlikely.

100%

Like imagine they do get Gorman for Pablo and get that FV50 STL arm (Graffeco) who is 1 year away, for Pablo/Berti/Cooper/Bass. The value math works out, and Berti/Cooper/Bass really help them.

They could then package Graffeco as a centerpiece for Laureano easily, and I bet they'd bite for him (Or Salas/Watson), Lewis/Cappe/Morisette/Fulton as a second piece, and another FV40 guy (S. Reynolds etc.) sort of thing. Make it worth their while and get AJ Puk also.

Pablo, 2-3 FV45+/45/40 prospects we currently have, and veteran spare parts we do not care about turns into Gorman and Laureano (and maybe another good reliever too).

And tell me about Free Agency SS then because in the offseason we can now dump healthy Anderson and one of Wendle/Rojas and roll out a Lewin-Jazz-TBD-Gorman (Wendle/Rojas, Williams) infield and that is very interesting with Bleday-Laureano-Sanchez/Garcia-Soler in the OF. Three new organizational starters, as well as Lewin and Bleday given the keys so 5 new guys versus opening day this year. With Berry coming. Monster shake up.


AND THEN to bring full circle - sign that innings eater reclamation project as we wait for Eury, Eder, Sixto, and Meyer. That's where I see it would be smart to sign that guy and agree 100% would be huge.

[rmc523]

I think if you have 8+ viable SP options, this team can't waste resources on another SP. Frankly, if they signed a SP this year we'd all be crying WTF are they doing that with Hernandez in the bullpen and Meyer and Cabrera in AAA. Right?

Except they’ve show they’re going to wait obnoxiously long to call up the young pitchers to fill that void, during which time the team gets further into a hole they have no chance of recovering from, and then it usually winds up with the backward mindset of “oh the kid wasn’t ready” further leading toward leaving the young player down.

[Nick]

You know what's probably going to happen when he moves up, AA/AAA/MLB pitchers are going to throw relentless strikes to him so he never walks (the only thing keeping him afloat right now... unless we point to the .376 BABIP) and not fear a mistake will get out of the infield as he has 0 power. He strikes out a lot already in A+ for a guy with no power. If the Marlins get a solid bench infielder 26th man out of him, that'll be great. I'm rooting for him to do that, but let's slow the roll into a longterm conversation for him. He's a fringe prospect that is good defensively. He is two offensive steps forward from thinking about a starter at the ML level - namely cutting the whiffs and playing to his speed. Get Luis Castillo/Juan Pierre in town and teach the kid how to foul off pitches and bunt I say. Maybe, just maybe, they'd end up with a .260/.320/.330 hitter... but if that's coming with out of this world defense and 40+ SB potential and not a high CS rate, you can start imagining a 2.5 WAR player for sure.

K's are the one red flag with him, more than you would like to see for a hitter of his ilk. That being said, his numbers have improved across the board from Low-A to High-A. A slight improvement in contact and I think we've really got something here. I don't think his On base abilities completely go away as he works up the ladder, obviously the walks are going to decrease at each level, but we're talking a guy who's OBP is almost .400 with a .250 AVG. I could easily foresee a guy who can put up .340-.350, 40-50 steals a year and gold glove caliber defense and all of a sudden you got something real valuable. I'm not saying he's on the level of prospect as Salas and Watson, but unless we lock up the position outside of the organization, he may get a shot at SS in the bigs before the other 2 I named, and it'll be interesting to see what he does with it. But that's probably 2 years off.

[Nick]

I think if you have 8+ viable SP options, this team can't waste resources on another SP. Frankly, if they signed a SP this year we'd all be crying WTF are they doing that with Hernandez in the bullpen and Meyer and Cabrera in AAA. Right?

If we had started the year with Braxton Garrett in the rotation instead of Elieser, we'd really have nothing to complain about when it comes to the rotation all year. Trevor Rogers has had his struggles, but we've all seen him when he's right he's got ace stuff. Whether to send him down is a legitimately tough call. Now if we had Sandy, Pablo, Meyer, Cabrera and Luzardo all healthy at one time then you could think about it but that hasn't happened.

[Lee Stone]

4 LHP Rogers, Garrett, Luzardo and Eder, who I'm hoping is ready by mid-2023.
4 RHP in Alcantara, Lopez, Cabrera, and Perez, who I'm seeing as ready by min-2023 also.
Trading any of them for a single bat is of no consequence. Just wouldn't make a real difference.
L Diaz, Sanchez, Wendle and Bleday should start against all RHP the rest of this season. None should start vs lefties.
LeBlanc is a versatile guy vs lefties. Burdick the same. Let them play.
Nunez is a great guy for the Berti role in 2024.
No way Watson ever sees a major league diamond with Miami. Cappe then Salas are big hopes for the future.

[lou]

Except they’ve show they’re going to wait obnoxiously long to call up the young pitchers to fill that void, during which time the team gets further into a hole they have no chance of recovering from, and then it usually winds up with the backward mindset of “oh the kid wasn’t ready” further leading toward leaving the young player down.

Preaching to the choir here. I got yelled at for suggesting they should call up Meyer 15 days into the season, and Cabrera in May (to Kris Bryant their service time), and put them on the Johan Santana play on throwing 1-2 innings, and build them up for larger loads as the season went on. There was 120 innings in the bigs for each of them this year, but they opted to keep them both down for who knows reasons. But now they have prevented Super 2s so Bruce saved money.

I think it's hard to argue with Sandy/Pablo/Rogers/Luzardo/Hernandez with Garrett/Neidert/Poteet around and Meyer/Cabrera/Sixto coming after them. This is good, but that doesn't mean a good thing works out as we're seeing this year.

[lou]

K's are the one red flag with him, more than you would like to see for a hitter of his ilk. That being said, his numbers have improved across the board from Low-A to High-A. A slight improvement in contact and I think we've really got something here. I don't think his On base abilities completely go away as he works up the ladder, obviously the walks are going to decrease at each level, but we're talking a guy who's OBP is almost .400 with a .250 AVG. I could easily foresee a guy who can put up .340-.350, 40-50 steals a year and gold glove caliber defense and all of a sudden you got something real valuable. I'm not saying he's on the level of prospect as Salas and Watson, but unless we lock up the position outside of the organization, he may get a shot at SS in the bigs before the other 2 I named, and it'll be interesting to see what he does with it. But that's probably 2 years off.

Yes the Ks are a concern. Guys like Nicky Lopez thrive because they have contact.

In fact that's the comp - Nicky Lopez 2022 (2021 is bananas). That would be an incredible bench player. Here's hoping for that in 24.

[lou]

4 LHP Rogers, Garrett, Luzardo and Eder, who I'm hoping is ready by mid-2023.
4 RHP in Alcantara, Lopez, Cabrera, and Perez, who I'm seeing as ready by min-2023 also.
Trading any of them for a single bat is of no consequence. Just wouldn't make a real difference.
L Diaz, Sanchez, Wendle and Bleday should start against all RHP the rest of this season. None should start vs lefties.
LeBlanc is a versatile guy vs lefties. Burdick the same. Let them play.
Nunez is a great guy for the Berti role in 2024.
No way Watson ever sees a major league diamond with Miami. Cappe then Salas are big hopes for the future.

Which is why you trade Pablo, Cooper, Berti, Wendle/Rojas, Anderson (offseason), Bass, Floro, Okert, Aguilar (eat cash), and others and get at least 1 bat for Pablo, and the rest build the farm up so much you can then prospect trade for a 2nd one. Then Bruce signs the third one < ----- This is the key. If they are really smart about this, maybe there is even a fourth moderate acquisition here (like another Wendle or Stallings deal, and hopefully the former happens).

Then you probably still need another bat, but I think if they did that, you could get to the deadline and see what's up with Fortes/Stallings/Lewin/Bleday/Sanchez/Garcia/Soler/Berry first half of the season so to speak before making another move to win.

They are still in good shape despite this year. It's because they haven't planted the flag yet to go for it and are still treading water.

[rmc523]

I’m unfortunately stuck in the mindset of the team is going to infinitely be stuck in mediocrity because they aren’t willing to take that next (expenditure) step and do what they need to do to actually compete. They had the obvious opportunity last off season and continued with the cheap “we tried” half measures, and until they show otherwise, I have no faith they’ll do anything else. They burned that bridge of trust last offseason.