2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[Erick]

We had that one year of Delgado.

Justin Bour had a few productive seasons. Aguilar was productive too before this season. Gaby had decent seasons, as well.

These guys are not hard to replace.

Why Kim Ng felt it was a brilliant idea to stack up Cooper, Aguilar, and Soler when they’re basically all averaging hitting DH’s never made much sense.

[fish16]

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/FLA/pos.shtml

I hadnt found this page before, but just looking at the names by year its ridiculous at some of these positions. C hasn't had a WAr above 1 other than JT since Olivo in 2006. 2006!!!

1b hasn't been above the 2.7 from gaby sanchez in 2011 since fucking delgado in 2005.
3b had 9 different WAR leaders in 10 years from 2008-2017. Prado apparently put up 3.4 and 3.8 years, but it didn't feel like it and he wasn't a legit long term starter.
Even SS since jose reyes' forgettable 3 WAR in 2012, its been a lot of defensively driven 2.3 WAR max from rojas and 2.6 max somehow from Hechavarria.

This team needs quite literally anything offensively at any position and they can adjust the lineup accordingly, but holy shit other than JT, Stanton, Yelich and Ozuna, it's been a complete nightmare at every position. And for those guys we pretty much have only sandy to show for it and the hope of sixto ever returning. Even in the years those 4 were here, because of the cheapness of Loria, we were so fucking bad depth wise at literally every position that our offense still stunk. It's been quite literally almost 2007 since it's felt like we've had a competent offense.

[fish16]

Exactly

Most of our offensive players are yawns.

the point is he's competent and cheap and what you get for him in a trade is not worth what he can (boringly) bring to the major league roster. is he an all star? Fuck no. but he's competent, and if you had an ownership that would get the stars around him that are needed for this team to win, he gives you value for his salary. The question you ask is, do you get the type of production offensively next year from his return in a trade than what he will bring next year? You wont. so keep him, and get some talent around him.

[Erick]

the point is he's competent and cheap and what you get for him in a trade is not worth what he can (boringly) bring to the major league roster. is he an all star? Fuck no. but he's competent, and if you had an ownership that would get the stars around him that are needed for this team to win, he gives you value for his salary. The question you ask is, do you get the type of production offensively next year from his return in a trade than what he will bring next year? You wont. so keep him, and get some talent around him.

Of the guys you mention, I think Wendle might be the best one to keep because of his versatility.

I really don’t care if Cooper gets traded. Or Brian Anderson for that matter.

[Nick]

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/FLA/pos.shtml

I hadnt found this page before, but just looking at the names by year its ridiculous at some of these positions. C hasn't had a WAr above 1 other than JT since Olivo in 2006. 2006!!!

1b hasn't been above the 2.7 from gaby sanchez in 2011 since fucking delgado in 2005.
3b had 9 different WAR leaders in 10 years from 2008-2017. Prado apparently put up 3.4 and 3.8 years, but it didn't feel like it and he wasn't a legit long term starter.
Even SS since jose reyes' forgettable 3 WAR in 2012, its been a lot of defensively driven 2.3 WAR max from rojas and 2.6 max somehow from Hechavarria.

This team needs quite literally anything offensively at any position and they can adjust the lineup accordingly, but holy shit other than JT, Stanton, Yelich and Ozuna, it's been a complete nightmare at every position. And for those guys we pretty much have only sandy to show for it and the hope of sixto ever returning. Even in the years those 4 were here, because of the cheapness of Loria, we were so fucking bad depth wise at literally every position that our offense still stunk. It's been quite literally almost 2007 since it's felt like we've had a competent offense.

Good stuff.

in 2008 Mike Jacobs had 32 HRs an OPS over .800 and a -2 WAR. Wut?

[fish16]

Justin Bour had a few productive seasons. Aguilar was productive too before this season. Gaby had decent seasons, as well.

These guys are not hard to replace.

Why Kim Ng felt it was a brilliant idea to stack up Cooper, Aguilar, and Soler when they’re basically all averaging hitting DH’s never made much sense.

to me, the biggest thing is why do you bring back aguilar for 10 fucking million AND sign a clearly overachieving Avisail Garcia for 15 million and then refuse to spend the money on the bullpen or other long term bats? Me and lou had this conversation back in 2019 when we were trying to get Garcia, he;s always been a mediocre OF that you can get the type of production for cheap. He's not the kind of guy you spend money on, ESPECIALLY long term. you can find that production every offseason on a 1 year deal. Why on earth do you give him that money? It's inexcusable for 1 year, but for 4 years its the type of move any competent front office (and especially in a small market), avoids. It's the absolute peak of stupidity.

Aguilar type guys and corner outfielders are available every offseason for cheap, why bring back aguilar for 10 million and why ever give garcia 4 years. Soler I'm fine with, but we had clear holes at closer, why do that?

[Erick]

Good stuff.

in 2008 Mike Jacobs had 32 HRs an OPS over .800 and a -2 WAR. Wut?

He was awful defensively.

[fish16]

Good stuff.

in 2008 Mike Jacobs had 32 HRs an OPS over .800 and a -2 WAR. Wut?

that dude was the worst 1b I've ever seen.

[Nick]

I do remember he was bad defensively. I feel like you would have to play 1st base without a glove to have that WAR with those offensive numbers.

[Erick]

I feel like people who actually watch the games would be ok trading Jorge Soler back to the Braves for the next Alex Jackson.

The guy looks like he signed here to take some time off before getting traded again. He hasn’t come up with a relevant hit all year.

I’m not sure who the worst of Soler, Garcia, Stallings is. What an offseason.

[fish16]

I feel like people who actually watch the games would be ok trading Jorge Soler back to the Braves for the next Alex Jackson.

The guy looks like he signed here to take some time off before getting traded again. He hasn’t come up with a relevant hit all year.

I’m not sure who the worst of Soler, Garcia, Stallings is. What an offseason.

soler has been significantly better than both. Stallings and garcia are both terrible and that was predictable. Soler is the best example of a guy who is a good hitter who when he is your 5th best hitter, you're in a good spot, but when he is your 2nd best hitter you're terrible.

[Erick]

soler has been significantly better than both. Stallings and garcia are both terrible and that was predictable. Soler is the best example of a guy who is a good hitter who when he is your 5th best hitter, you're in a good spot, but when he is your 2nd best hitter you're terrible.

Soler’s been great in situations that don’t matter and it’s inflated his mediocre stats.

In relevant leverage spots, he’s basically been the worst player in baseball. Some of that probably won’t translate year to year, but it’s no surprise he’s at his worst when pitchers have to make pitches. He has a terrible approach.

He also doesn’t give a shit about anything. He just didn’t score on a double that should’ve been really easy to score on. Even JP Arencibia is currently criticizing his hustle. He must be hurt really bad to be running the way he’s running.

[Erick]

Turns out Soler is hurt so at least there’s an excuse for the running.

More opportunity for Bryan De La Cruz, yay…

[lou]

I’d agree. He’s basically talking about starting over AGAIN.

Just for the record, these hypothetical trade ideas are not a rebuild but to win in 2023. It's just exchanging Pablo, Cabrera, and the ancillary bats short and longterm gains. It's having your cake and eating it too once you use all the money saved to sign Nimmo/Swanson sort of thing.

[lou]

If some previous ideas were too aggressive, this team is approximately $73 million for discussion's sake:

Fortes, Stallings
Lewin
Jazz, Berti
Rojas
Wendle, L. Williams
Bleday, Sanchez
_____
Garcia
Soler

Sandy, Pablo, Luzardo, Meyer, Rogers/Garrett
Cabrera, Bender, Pop, Poteet, Hernandez
Scott, Rogers/Garrett, Bleier

Midseason - Eury, Berry, Eder, Sixto

The trade assets for right now are then:

Anderson
Cooper
Bass
Okert
Aguilar (eat salary)

This is effectively getting likely a lot of future relievers (however maybe good ones).


Is signing Nimmo and going to $95m or so enough here (will Bruce spend that)? That pitching could be lights the fuck out if everyone is healthy and Eury, Eder, and Sixto just force Pop, Hernandez, and Bleier off the team and who cares about roles everyone has when hot lava is being thrown every inning. This is definitely a path.

But this is like the same fucking offensive team and fuck these guys right? Do we really need the 11th pitcher to be that good with the starting lineup would be.... Nimmo Jazz Soler Lewin Garcia Bleday Wendle Fortes Rojas?


I think a major offensive shake up and upgrade is needed here. Hence, trade them all (add Pablo, Cabrera, and Berti to list above minimum) and shoot for 3+ Jazz level bats (N. Marte, K. Lewis, N. Gorman, etc.), and then use the money and sign Nimmo/Swanson. 4 big new offensive names (plus Lewin and Bleday coming in full time and Berry coming) with the rotation still having Sandy, Luzardo, Meyer, Rogers, Garrett... with Eury and Eder coming... and Poteet and Sixto around. That's what I'm talking about. Massive upside all around.