2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[lou]

I long for a rotation next may of Sandy, Pablo, Sixto, Meyer, and Eury with a bullpen of Luzardo, Rogers, and Cabrera.

Five right handers, GREAT IDEA. Why do I borther?

[fish16]

Five right handers, GREAT IDEA. Why do I borther?

not sure why you borther either, but who gives a fuck if its 5 great pitchers? You'd complain if you had 5 sandy's because they are all right handed? Whatever the combo of those guys is, just get them all healthy for may of next year when eury comes up.

[fish16]

This post is really stupid and I can't go line by line after you post something so atrocious like that Reynolds post above. Mute button, kicked off the show, come back next week.

The model is Milwaukee - when you are ready, sell the house for a Yelich. And move payroll to at least $100-110m and you can create a small 2-4 year window before the kids hit major arbitration. That gives you a chance to win besides hoping an entire roster of perfect (like Tampa/Cleveland) works out. Even Oakland trades for Marte to TRY.

Absent that, we are all chickens without our heads running around while the owner profits.

I say - LET'S TRY. Marlins don't need these prospects with all the MLB control. Eury is the only farm untouchable.

Yes, you sell the house for the best and most efficient and valuable contract in baseball at the time. groundbreaking stuff and totally disagreeing with exactly what I said. And again, you can choose to live in fantasy land and build a team where sherman, despite nothing being shown to date that he intends to add 30 million to the payroll, trots out a payroll of 110 million. ill be the one here in reality. If he ever shows any intention of adding 30 million to the payroll other than lip service, than maybe ill waste my time trotting out scenarios of how to build the team. but by all means continue wasting your time on that fantasy land. We all want it to happen, but there is nothing to indicate it will ever happen with sherman.

When they traded for yelich, he had remaining on his contract: 7 million in 18, 9.75 million in 19, 12.5 million in 2020, 14 million last year, with a team option for 15 million this year. So they acquired a star and mortgaged the farm for a budding star that's great in all aspects of the game and not just offensively who had 5 years on his deal for 58.25 million. they didn't acquire a guy who they were paying 20-25 million a year for. id be all for the marlins mortgaging the farm for a star on that contract. We're paying 1 million or so less for Avisail Garcia this year than they paid for 2 MVP caliber seasons for yelich when they first got him.

They also then gave him a terrible contract that will pay him 22 million a year until he is 37 when it looks like injuries have already hampered his prime. A great example of both the player you hope to acquire and also the risk of a smaller market team giving out too big of a contract. They created a 2-4 year window because they did exactly what I'm saying the marlins need to do: be efficient with every dollar they spent. The surplus value they got from yelich vastly outperforming what he was being paid was exactly what allowed them to go on a 4 year playoff run. Lets see how the next 6 years of paying a declining 30 year old 22 million a year works out for them.

[lou]

not sure why you borther either, but who gives a fuck if its 5 great pitchers? You'd complain if you had 5 sandy's because they are all right handed? Whatever the combo of those guys is, just get them all healthy for may of next year when eury comes up.

They aren't 5 Sandys.

And if we are going be overall upside, Luzardo is # 3 in the organization.

But you want to put the lowest upside - Sixto - in a hypothetical rotation.

[fish16]

They aren't 5 Sandys.

And if we are going be overall upside, Luzardo is # 3 in the organization.

But you want to put the lowest upside - Sixto - in a hypothetical rotation.

I didn't say they were 5 sandy's, you were complaining about 5 righties being listed in a hypothetical rotation as if that matters if the ability is great. Not sure how you can say sixto has the lowest upside. He's got the highest risk because he's been injured for a year and a half, but when healthy he certainly doesn't have the lowest upside. He put up incredibly similar numbers to sandy in 2020 in his first taste of the big leagues.

I really don't care who the 5 are, I was just saying if they all are ever able to be healthy at the same time, they have their pick of 5 stud arms to have an electric rotation combined with overfill to form a nasty back end of the bullpen. I don't give a shit which 5 end up panning out and earning the rotation spots if the overfill is ever healthy and able to fill out the back of the pen/

[fish16]

speaking of sixto, if i had to guess based on the tea leaves mish keeps putting out there, I don't think he pitches for the marlins again. I have no idea what the reasoning is behind it, but mish has said numerous times that he thinks sixto is done in Miami or something to that effect.

He's said forget sixto and said back in December that he had not heard anything positive on Sixto in a year due to how he handled his shoulder rehab. Hopefully he can come back though and make an impact. His stuff was ridiculous

This was mish on twitter in March- There is confidence he will return “one day” so literally we are talking a long time from now. I honestly have no idea. Expect nothing and be thankful you get anything.

[lou]

Yes, you sell the house for the best and most efficient and valuable contract in baseball at the time. groundbreaking stuff and totally disagreeing with exactly what I said. And again, you can choose to live in fantasy land and build a team where sherman, despite nothing being shown to date that he intends to add 30 million to the payroll, trots out a payroll of 110 million. ill be the one here in reality. If he ever shows any intention of adding 30 million to the payroll other than lip service, than maybe ill waste my time trotting out scenarios of how to build the team. but by all means continue wasting your time on that fantasy land. We all want it to happen, but there is nothing to indicate it will ever happen with sherman.

When they traded for yelich, he had remaining on his contract: 7 million in 18, 9.75 million in 19, 12.5 million in 2020, 14 million last year, with a team option for 15 million this year. So they acquired a star and mortgaged the farm for a budding star that's great in all aspects of the game and not just offensively who had 5 years on his deal for 58.25 million. they didn't acquire a guy who they were paying 20-25 million a year for. id be all for the marlins mortgaging the farm for a star on that contract. We're paying 1 million or so less for Avisail Garcia this year than they paid for 2 MVP caliber seasons for yelich when they first got him.

They also then gave him a terrible contract that will pay him 22 million a year until he is 37 when it looks like injuries have already hampered his prime. A great example of both the player you hope to acquire and also the risk of a smaller market team giving out too big of a contract. They created a 2-4 year window because they did exactly what I'm saying the marlins need to do: be efficient with every dollar they spent. The surplus value they got from yelich vastly outperforming what he was being paid was exactly what allowed them to go on a 4 year playoff run. Lets see how the next 6 years of paying a declining 30 year old 22 million a year works out for them.

Wut?

The only wasting of my time here is trying to explain baseball to you, and citations for that predicting 88 wins and then arguing for MONTHS on Reynolds is a bad fit and JUST admitting you had zero idea he had 4 years of control (including this year). This is really bad. Another bad one is why are you arguing what the Brewers paid Yelich further? Did I say once that was a smart extension? I'm the one saying let's not pay older players (Marte) here for the record.

Additionally - this notion I think they WILL spend $110m is false. I think they SHOULD. You want me to build a team for under $90 - LFG. It starts with Laureano/Austin Hays, trading Pablo for an epic SS that doesn't cost too much, and then counting on all of the extra pitchers (Luzardo, Meyer, Cabrera, Eury, Eder, and Sixto) to bring it next year. This is the everything must go right plan - which is likely doomed to fail as you never get everything going right. You can get Laureano/Hayes and likely a RP upgrade (Puk, and Baltimore has a few) without the pitchers - Watson/Salas are top 100 centerpieces, and they have many other interesting bats (Bleday, Burdick, Lewis, Cappe, Morisette, Lewin) and 2nd/3rd level arms (Fulton, Soriano, McCambley). That's a bet I would take as I believe in the core arms. My position is two fold - the main problem is Bruce because he's cheap, and then Ng is not doing great with the hand dealt (redundancy aguilar/soler/cooper and no CF, no lefty killers, etc. All things pointed out preseason). This isn't $110m or bust, although if they want to be a contender, the answer is the plant the flag (1) trades and (2) jayson werth FA deal - Nimmo, Swanson, Correa, Turner, Xander, etc. I think the prudent thing to do is trade for everything cheap as mentioned above and hope for the best this year, and then pray Bruce lets you sign Nimmo/Correa next year to round it out. Ng should put Bruce in a position where he is forced to spend as she did all she could and they need 1 last piece.

They also didn't sell the house for Yelich - they bought LOW on Yelich and they kept their # 2, 3, and 4 prospects - who happened to be Hiura, Burnes, and Woodruff (https://www.baseballamerica.com/stor...-10-prospects/). Basically, the Marlins would be in much better shape if they got one of the pitchers there and why didn't they? It's because they are fucking stupid and traded him for "attitude" versus acknowledging his value. It's why the trade was bad the day of the trade, and then amazingly GOT WORSE as everyone busted. You defended this until mid 2021 when it was bad the first second of the deal. To note, I'd have demanded Hiura over Isan and never have taken Monte, and demanded something else in their top 6-10 prospects, so I'd have been wrong too in likely passing on the pitchers. I can admit when I'm wrong.


Let's talk Reynolds since this is a sticking point. Let's say they would have been smart and traded Watson/Meyer/Bleday and gang for him in March (that was the rumored deal).

LF
vs LHP - Unknown
vs RHP - Reynolds - Approx. 875+ OPS, neutral defense
-Assuming this is a .775+ OPS bat, or a lower one a superior defender against LHP, this is a 3.5+ WAR platoon. This is a top 4-8 option in MLB.


CF
vs LHP - Reynolds - Approx. 800+ OPS, moderate below average (not atrocious)
vs RHP - Sanchez - Approx. 775+ OPS, neutral defense
-This is likely a 3-3.5+ WAR platoon with considerable upside with Sanchez who could tick up 50 OPS points easily as he grows, and Reynolds has hit harder than this for periods of his career. This is a top 5-9 option in MLB.


This is awesome. They cost $8m next year combined, controlled for 24 and 25.


Also please further note - my offseason position (since we did not know if Sanchez was solid in CF) was to trade for BOTH of Reynolds and Laureano and double down. This is even with Garcia.

Reynolds-Laureano-Garcia, and keep one of Sanchez/Bleday/Burdick and trade the other two out as part of these trades. The young one is the 4th OF and whoever isn't playing primary longterm DH. That's what I wanted to do even with Soler (because we'd DFA Aguilar to help short term). This could have easily been accomplished and yea, it would have cost all/most of Meyer, Cabrera, Watson, Sanchez/Burdick, Bleday, and Sixto to presumably get this done (they'd have Bednar here too mind you), but then you have....

An amazing OF depth chart for years, with multiple CF redundancy

You have multiple years of all the infielders who are very good (Wendle! Berti! Jazz! Rojas is still a 3 WAR guy! Anderson is good!) and can address SS/3B after 2023.

Sandy, Pablo, Rogers, Luzardo, Hernandez/Poteet/Garrett/Neidert in the rotation.... with Eury and Eder coming next year. This likely would have been a disaster given Rogers, Luzardo injury, and Hernandez ineffectiveness, but I maintain this makes sense on paper to fix the OF and you'd have two big ones coming to help in 2023. We'd likely be looking at a FA bridge starter for 2023 and likely a SP in the draft this year.

Your top prospects after all of this are Eury, Salas, Eder, Lewis, Cappe, Fulton, Morisette, Fortes, Mack, McCambly, etc. which is a real solid group (plus Lewin).

The only FA on the team is Floro

And the point of mentioning all of this is - who cares about the prospects when your MLB team has that much upside and are that deep across the board when you don't need to pull from it for years. This team would have likely failed this year because of Luzardo/Rogers/Hernandez, but how would 2023 be looking right now? We all know the answer to that.

You play to win the game, not win the efficiency trophy like the Rays.

It's time to trade one of their top 2-5 prospects, and 4-5 more of the next best 10-15 and fix some holes (CF, lefty killers, RP). Longterm guys - no rentals unless its outside top 25-30 prospects. Then pray Bruce will really spend, or do they a super aggressive Pablo trade/bridge FA that works out.

[lou]

I didn't say they were 5 sandy's, you were complaining about 5 righties being listed in a hypothetical rotation as if that matters if the ability is great. Not sure how you can say sixto has the lowest upside. He's got the highest risk because he's been injured for a year and a half, but when healthy he certainly doesn't have the lowest upside. He put up incredibly similar numbers to sandy in 2020 in his first taste of the big leagues.

I really don't care who the 5 are, I was just saying if they all are ever able to be healthy at the same time, they have their pick of 5 stud arms to have an electric rotation combined with overfill to form a nasty back end of the bullpen. I don't give a shit which 5 end up panning out and earning the rotation spots if the overfill is ever healthy and able to fill out the back of the pen/

Because Sixto has the lowest upside. Tiers:

Sandy - proven ace

Pablo - proven # 2
Eury - FV60+ upside
Luzardo - FV 60/55 looked like a total ace this year before injury

Meyer - FV 55/50
Rogers - Sixto was a better peak prospect, but he had a 4+ WAR year and is a lefty so Rogers wins big time even with strugglers
Eder - lefty, would be higher than Meyer likely if not hurt with what he did

Cabrera - You can argue him. Maybe Sixto is second lowest upside and Cabrera is last. I think Cabrera is less injured/better physique
Sixto - hurt for 2+ years and the smallest guy here. Highest likelihood of smaller SP breaking down. He should be in the bullpen next year if kept and healthy


Teams need to throw different looks at guys which is why lefties are important. I am all about playing the best players at all times, but this is just a great example of you not getting it. Talking about Sixto in the rotation right now is laughable with what these other guys are doing. Saying shit like oh man Reynolds isn't a free agent next year and let's put Sixto in the rotation. You're just not reading the room.

[fish16]

Wut?

The only wasting of my time here is trying to explain baseball to you, and citations for that predicting 88 wins and then arguing for MONTHS on Reynolds is a bad fit and JUST admitting you had zero idea he had 4 years of control (including this year). This is really bad. Another bad one is why are you arguing what the Brewers paid Yelich further? Did I say once that was a smart extension? I'm the one saying let's not pay older players (Marte) here for the record.

Additionally - this notion I think they WILL spend $110m is false. I think they SHOULD. You want me to build a team for under $90 - LFG. It starts with Laureano/Austin Hays, trading Pablo for an epic SS that doesn't cost too much, and then counting on all of the extra pitchers (Luzardo, Meyer, Cabrera, Eury, Eder, and Sixto) to bring it next year. This is the everything must go right plan - which is likely doomed to fail as you never get everything going right. You can get Laureano/Hayes and likely a RP upgrade (Puk, and Baltimore has a few) without the pitchers - Watson/Salas are top 100 centerpieces, and they have many other interesting bats (Bleday, Burdick, Lewis, Cappe, Morisette, Lewin) and 2nd/3rd level arms (Fulton, Soriano, McCambley). That's a bet I would take as I believe in the core arms. My position is two fold - the main problem is Bruce because he's cheap, and then Ng is not doing great with the hand dealt (redundancy aguilar/soler/cooper and no CF, no lefty killers, etc. All things pointed out preseason). This isn't $110m or bust, although if they want to be a contender, the answer is the plant the flag (1) trades and (2) jayson werth FA deal - Nimmo, Swanson, Correa, Turner, Xander, etc. I think the prudent thing to do is trade for everything cheap as mentioned above and hope for the best this year, and then pray Bruce lets you sign Nimmo/Correa next year to round it out. Ng should put Bruce in a position where he is forced to spend as she did all she could and they need 1 last piece.

They also didn't sell the house for Yelich - they bought LOW on Yelich and they kept their # 2, 3, and 4 prospects - who happened to be Hiura, Burnes, and Woodruff (https://www.baseballamerica.com/stor...-10-prospects/). Basically, the Marlins would be in much better shape if they got one of the pitchers there and why didn't they? It's because they are fucking stupid and traded him for "attitude" versus acknowledging his value. It's why the trade was bad the day of the trade, and then amazingly GOT WORSE as everyone busted. You defended this until mid 2021 when it was bad the first second of the deal. To note, I'd have demanded Hiura over Isan and never have taken Monte, and demanded something else in their top 6-10 prospects, so I'd have been wrong too in likely passing on the pitchers. I can admit when I'm wrong.


Let's talk Reynolds since this is a sticking point. Let's say they would have been smart and traded Watson/Meyer/Bleday and gang for him in March (that was the rumored deal).

LF
vs LHP - Unknown
vs RHP - Reynolds - Approx. 875+ OPS, neutral defense
-Assuming this is a .775+ OPS bat, or a lower one a superior defender against LHP, this is a 3.5+ WAR platoon. This is a top 4-8 option in MLB.


CF
vs LHP - Reynolds - Approx. 800+ OPS, moderate below average (not atrocious)
vs RHP - Sanchez - Approx. 775+ OPS, neutral defense
-This is likely a 3-3.5+ WAR platoon with considerable upside with Sanchez who could tick up 50 OPS points easily as he grows, and Reynolds has hit harder than this for periods of his career. This is a top 5-9 option in MLB.


This is awesome. They cost $8m next year combined, controlled for 24 and 25.


Also please further note - my offseason position (since we did not know if Sanchez was solid in CF) was to trade for BOTH of Reynolds and Laureano and double down. This is even with Garcia.

Reynolds-Laureano-Garcia, and keep one of Sanchez/Bleday/Burdick and trade the other two out as part of these trades. The young one is the 4th OF and whoever isn't playing primary longterm DH. That's what I wanted to do even with Soler (because we'd DFA Aguilar to help short term). This could have easily been accomplished and yea, it would have cost all/most of Meyer, Cabrera, Watson, Sanchez/Burdick, Bleday, and Sixto to presumably get this done (they'd have Bednar here too mind you), but then you have....

An amazing OF depth chart for years, with multiple CF redundancy

You have multiple years of all the infielders who are very good (Wendle! Berti! Jazz! Rojas is still a 3 WAR guy! Anderson is good!) and can address SS/3B after 2023.

Sandy, Pablo, Rogers, Luzardo, Hernandez/Poteet/Garrett/Neidert in the rotation.... with Eury and Eder coming next year. This likely would have been a disaster given Rogers, Luzardo injury, and Hernandez ineffectiveness, but I maintain this makes sense on paper to fix the OF and you'd have two big ones coming to help in 2023. We'd likely be looking at a FA bridge starter for 2023 and likely a SP in the draft this year.

Your top prospects after all of this are Eury, Salas, Eder, Lewis, Cappe, Fulton, Morisette, Fortes, Mack, McCambly, etc. which is a real solid group (plus Lewin).

The only FA on the team is Floro

And the point of mentioning all of this is - who cares about the prospects when your MLB team has that much upside and are that deep across the board when you don't need to pull from it for years. This team would have likely failed this year because of Luzardo/Rogers/Hernandez, but how would 2023 be looking right now? We all know the answer to that.

You play to win the game, not win the efficiency trophy like the Rays.

It's time to trade one of their top 2-5 prospects, and 4-5 more of the next best 10-15 and fix some holes (CF, lefty killers, RP). Longterm guys - no rentals unless its outside top 25-30 prospects. Then pray Bruce will really spend, or do they a super aggressive Pablo trade/bridge FA that works out.

Ya I fucked up on reynolds, no idea what I saw but I thought he had at most 2 more years after this year instead of 3. Depending on the price I'm fine with him, but because of the defensive limitations that "depending on price" is the sticking point. My position all along has been I'm fine trading prospects and think they need to do it for someone with team control like that, but it should be more prospects from the lower levels instead of the major league ready arms (that should already be up here). Meyer is untouchable for me until we see him at the major league level. I think he's a top of the rotation guy right now and they have enough talent at other levels of the organization to get a deal done for a guy like that without affecting the potential pitching they have for next year. If you have to deplete the lower levels of the organization so be it. Give them Watson, Salas, Eder since he's injured, lewis, fulton, etc plus guys like Bleday and/or burdick who would then be blocked. I'm just firmly against trading these upper minors, huge upside pitchers who are on the brink of the big leagues.

We're not on opposite sides of what they should be looking to acquire, we're on opposite sides of what they should be giving up to acquire that. We've assembled a ridiculous group of upper minors, major league ready, top of the rotation talent arms. I am of the opinion that you develop all levels of talent in the organization so you have the luxury of choosing how you go about acquiring that bat. We've seen injuries consistently with top of the rotation arms. Keep them all and let them figure out who the 5 who stick in the rotation are.

It's clear that if this turns around and we become a playoff team, it will be with young huge arms with upside. let it play out and either use free agency intelligently to fill holes or deplete the hell out of the lower levels of the system. We will have enough talent for several years at the major league level to be ok with that, plus with the way they've proven they want to spend on IFA and the draft, they will replenish that depth within 2-3 years anyways.

[fish16]

Because Sixto has the lowest upside. Tiers:

Sandy - proven ace

Pablo - proven # 2
Eury - FV60+ upside
Luzardo - FV 60/55 looked like a total ace this year before injury

Meyer - FV 55/50
Rogers - Sixto was a better peak prospect, but he had a 4+ WAR year and is a lefty so Rogers wins big time even with strugglers
Eder - lefty, would be higher than Meyer likely if not hurt with what he did

Cabrera - You can argue him. Maybe Sixto is second lowest upside and Cabrera is last. I think Cabrera is less injured/better physique
Sixto - hurt for 2+ years and the smallest guy here. Highest likelihood of smaller SP breaking down. He should be in the bullpen next year if kept and healthy


Teams need to throw different looks at guys which is why lefties are important. I am all about playing the best players at all times, but this is just a great example of you not getting it. Talking about Sixto in the rotation right now is laughable with what these other guys are doing. Saying shit like oh man Reynolds isn't a free agent next year and let's put Sixto in the rotation. You're just not reading the room.

that would be risk you're talking about, not upside. He put up 1 WAR in 39 innings and was completely unhittable at times, was a top 20 prospect in baseball, and threw over 100 with 2 fastball variations with a disgusting changeup. Sixto is by far the biggest question mark out of all of those guy in terms of injury risk, but he ain't the lowest in terms of upside.

Luzardo I have high hopes for, but he's thrown 195 major league innings with a 5.16 era and 1.39 whip and 84 walks because he was a complete disaster last year, has already had tommy john and now a forearm injury, and still even at the beginning of this year couldn't control the walks. I really don't give a shit about this hypothetical upside conversation, but in terms of just pure potential of what I think they can be in an ideal world at their potential peak, id rank them Sandy, Eury, Pablo, Meyer, Sixto, Rogers, Cabrera, Eder.

[Nick]

It’s impossible to put any type of ranking on sixto at this point at least as a fan. We haven’t seen him in 2 years and his injuries remain mysterious and seemingly numerous.

[lou]

It's clear that if this turns around and we become a playoff team, it will be with young huge arms with upside

This is what we agree on. But keep 7 of them (so 2 can get injured longterm)

Sandy
Pablo --- > Eury
Luzardo
Meyer/Cabrera (one)
Rogers ---> Eder
(with Poteet and likely Castano/Garrett in bullpen for bulk options)

This is why in previous posts, I mentioned:

Meyer/Cabrera
Watson/Salas
Lewin (no room with Cooper/Soler... if Soler is going to opt out, he is a keep)
one on Sanchez/Bleday/Burdick
one of Lewis/Morisette/Nunez
one of Hernandez/Sixto/Fulton

Is the rough trade pool of notable assets.

Eury is untouchable, they can live without one of Cabrera/Meyer for a massive bat upgrade with the other pitching, need the other of Watson/Salas as trading both is difficult for the pipeline. They can live without two of Lewin/Sanchez/Bleday/Burdick getting an OF in return - as they'd have the new CF, Garcia (not gonna be benched) and the other ones to find PA for. They don't need all of the MI prospects with Jazz, a nice pipeline of at least one of Watson/Salas and three of Cappe/Morisette/Nunez/Lewis, and presumably finding a longterm SS/3B in free agency/elsewhere, plus they could always just keep BA/Wendle/Rojas/Berti around on an extension. And then Hernandez/Sixto/Fulton are way down the depth chart and effectively longterm RP options at this point.

They can get A LOT with those 6 guys, plus possibly RP throw ins (Okert, Bass, Sulser, Floro) and outside top 20 throw ins who have no chance here (Conine).

None of that group impacts a longterm depth view with the club control on MLB roster and adding more club control with a Laureano type, and they'd have 22/23 drafts to rebuild as no one is graduating any time soon beyond Eury, Eder, and secondary OF and RP.


It's time to win. Try for this year even if difficult, and set this up for an eye of just needing 1-2 pieces in 2023. It's why guys like Laureano, or aggressively trying to get Gorman and appease to STL contending, makes sense

[fish16]

This is what we agree on. But keep 7 of them (so 2 can get injured longterm)

Sandy
Pablo --- > Eury
Luzardo
Meyer/Cabrera (one)
Rogers ---> Eder
(with Poteet and likely Castano/Garrett in bullpen for bulk options)

This is why in previous posts, I mentioned:

Meyer/Cabrera
Watson/Salas
Lewin (no room with Cooper/Soler... if Soler is going to opt out, he is a keep)
one on Sanchez/Bleday/Burdick
one of Lewis/Morisette/Nunez
one of Hernandez/Sixto/Fulton

Is the rough trade pool of notable assets.

Eury is untouchable, they can live without one of Cabrera/Meyer for a massive bat upgrade with the other pitching, need the other of Watson/Salas as trading both is difficult for the pipeline. They can live without two of Lewin/Sanchez/Bleday/Burdick getting an OF in return - as they'd have the new CF, Garcia (not gonna be benched) and the other ones to find PA for. They don't need all of the MI prospects with Jazz, a nice pipeline of at least one of Watson/Salas and three of Cappe/Morisette/Nunez/Lewis, and presumably finding a longterm SS/3B in free agency/elsewhere, plus they could always just keep BA/Wendle/Rojas/Berti around on an extension. And then Hernandez/Sixto/Fulton are way down the depth chart and effectively longterm RP options at this point.

They can get A LOT with those 6 guys, plus possibly RP throw ins (Okert, Bass, Sulser, Floro) and outside top 20 throw ins who have no chance here (Conine).

None of that group impacts a longterm depth view with the club control on MLB roster and adding more club control with a Laureano type, and they'd have 22/23 drafts to rebuild as no one is graduating any time soon beyond Eury, Eder, and secondary OF and RP.


It's time to win. Try for this year even if difficult, and set this up for an eye of just needing 1-2 pieces in 2023. It's why guys like Laureano, or aggressively trying to get Gorman and appease to STL contending, makes sense

This I can live with. If its one of cabrera or meyer, I keep meyer all day. i think he ends up being special and cabrera has had multiple injuries over the last few years. I've been saying laureano is the guy since right before the season. He's not going to cost any of those top guys anyways, they arent trying to win any time soon, and because of those 2 factors, I think you can get him without giving up anybody that hurts you long term. You can give them an ian lewis and fulton or something like those levels of prospects, and you have centerfield covered through next year.

I also still think they need to address catcher long term. Stallings is awful. The only thing I hate more than shitty hitting catchers whose value is entirely defensive is a reliever who has no idea where the baseball is going like Holloway.

[Erick]

This might be a bad take, but I wouldn’t think this team is serious about winning if they trade Pablo Lopez. Would be another major sign of cheap ownership.

[fish16]

This might be a bad take, but I wouldn’t think this team is serious about winning if they trade Pablo Lopez. Would be another major sign of cheap ownership.

with the pitching depth they have and pablo's recurring shoulder injury that's popped up every year that's hampered his ability to pitch a full season to this point, it could be a case of selling high, replacing him with an internal cost controlled high ceiling top prospect like a meyer and eventually Eury and Eder and Cabrera, and getting a great bat or a few good bats.

At this point given they are still somewhat in it and have SP injuries right now, i'd wait until the offseason and pray pablo makes it through the full season healthy and then evaluate whether you can replace him internally to start next year AND get the impact bat they need for him. He still has 2 more years until free agency after this year, but if you have the quality internal replacements for him and you can get a bat that drastically helps the lineup, I can see and would have no problem with trading him as he would have a ton of value as a really good SP with 2 years of team control. Theoretically, his value would never be higher coming off a full season of healthy great performance with 2 years of team control left.

But do I trust them to evaluate the trade market for him and get the right bat they need for him? Not really. But that's the thought process. With all the pitching we have in the system, i'd be very hesitant to give him a long term deal with his injury history and the desperate need for impact bats in the lineup. Plus the fact that his velocity is down a full 1.2 MPH from last year and from even the beginning of this year really makes me question whether he's a shoulder surgery waiting to happen.