2023 Game Thread

[Nick]

Just put him on a schedule and stick with it.

Open games with him then - top of the lineup is always high leverage in a 0-0 game. This is not the end of the world my god.

That’s what is called a starter and exactly what I advocated for.

[fish16]

Check the 2003 game log for Santana. https://www.fangraphs.com/players/jo...=0&season=2003

Godspeed.

The game logs indicate that he had a dynamite first half where he pitched 31 games and had just 4 starts to the tune of a 3.00 ERA, 1.12 ERA, and 81/23 K/BB ratio. The twins had the 20th best ERA in the big leagues as a starter for that entire year, and that includes his second half. If it was such a well thought out plan, why did that plan end up with him pitching just 2 more innings the following year? Might it be because you're completely full of shit. It indicates someone who outperformed low expecations and got promoted to a bad rotation. i dare you to find me one single article indicating it was the grand plan of the twins to limit his innings those years. They got lucky, and youve been misrepresenting what happened for over a year expecting no one to call you out on your bullshit.

The twins rotation that year did not have a single person with a FIP under 4.25, and had a single guy with an ERA+ of over 100, which was Brad Radke at exactly 101. I cant believe Johan Santana broke through such a 90's brave level pitching staff!! what a triumph of the human spirit and a real testament to how well the twins monitored his innings over the course of several years.

[lou]

They should be putting Eder, Meyer, and Eury in the bullpen to open 2024, and slowly build them up similar to Johan's 2003. End strong. I think that is the smartest thing to do, but if you disagree, that is cool. Have at it.

I was also right on DLC and Gurriel, DLC is going to get 500 PA which you vehemently disagreed with. He can hit a bit, but has certainly regressed defensively which is a major problem. Gurriel sucks. You'll figure it out eventually when the bottom swiftly drops out because the analytics don't lie he is vastly overachieving. And Andrus has not been great but a $3m bet on him versus Hampson would have been a much smarter idea. You can't win them all but I will always bet on guys coming off 3.5 WAR years.

We all liked the Cueto and Segura signings, I guess we are all fucking dumb eh? I thought Hermida was going to be Brian Giles. I'm an asshole.


I said this earlier, if you want to throw Eury 5 more starts or so and shut him down, that is certainly an option. If that makes or breaks the playoffs, do it. I don't think suggesting they can cascade those innings to not shut him down should generate so much venom. Let's have the guy be ready for the playoffs as they *should* make it. This was a bad loss, but it doesn't change much.


Big picture, it's a cheap ass owner who has no business owning a major league franchise. And it will inevitably cost them a playoff spot for the 20th consecutive year. Cheers to that buddy. No notes. Been saying this for literal years now Bruce is the problem and not Kim. They should have made moves a month ago minimum.

[fish16]

They should be putting Eder, Meyer, and Eury in the bullpen to open 2024, and slowly build them up similar to Johan's 2003. End strong. I think that is the smartest thing to do, but if you disagree, that is cool. Have at it.

I was also right on DLC and Gurriel, DLC is going to get 500 PA which you vehemently disagreed with. He can hit a bit, but has certainly regressed defensively which is a major problem. Gurriel sucks. You'll figure it out eventually when the bottom swiftly drops out because the analytics don't lie he is vastly overachieving. And Andrus has not been great but a $3m bet on him versus Hampson would have been a much smarter idea. You can't win them all but I will always bet on guys coming off 3.5 WAR years.

We all liked the Cueto and Segura signings, I guess we are all fucking dumb eh? I thought Hermida was going to be Brian Giles. I'm an asshole.


I said this earlier, if you want to throw Eury 5 more starts or so and shut him down, that is certainly an option. If that makes or breaks the playoffs, do it. I don't think suggesting they can cascade those innings to not shut him down should generate so much venom. Let's have the guy be ready for the playoffs as they *should* make it. This was a bad loss, but it doesn't change much.


Big picture, it's a cheap ass owner who has no business owning a major league franchise. And it will inevitably cost them a playoff spot for the 20th consecutive year. Cheers to that buddy. No notes. Been saying this for literal years now Bruce is the problem and not Kim. They should have made moves a month ago minimum.

Again, DLC has no business getting 500 at bats. Are these the same analytics that had DLC as a breakout candidate, because currently he has .4 WAR in 350 at bats whereas Gurriel has .4 WAR in 212? also, DLC is a thoroughly mediocre hitter. He has no value as a starter. He is a bench bat, which as i told you for the last 8 months is what his minor league stats has indicated for his entire career. you are a dunce and fell in love with a "swing change" as if the previous 8 years of his minor league and major league track record didnt matter.

Also, the bet was never Andrus vs Hampson, it was very clearly Andrus vs gurriel. gurriel was clearly the better option. Nice revisionist history once again. Also, maybe you will actually look into the fact that they needed actual hitting value and that fielding value is grossly overrated when it comes to calculating war. you're almost there. You also made Andrus out to be some sort of lefty masher when he's never been a good hitter. Andrus has sucked as an offensive player for now 6 straight years outside of 1 good stretch to end last year once a terrible oakland team dumped him for nothing. It's almost as if that was kind of predictable that he would have a terrible year.

[Nick]

Check the 2003 game log for Santana. https://www.fangraphs.com/players/jo...=0&season=2003

Godspeed.

If you can't see the difference between having Johan Santana come out of the bullpen in April and May to conserve innings when he'd already made 50 major league relief appearances in the past 3 years to conserve his innings, and sending Eury to the pen to conserve innings in the middle of July when he's never pitched out of the pen and he's been our best starter over the past month and a half then you can't be helped.

[fish16]

If you can't see the difference between having Johan Santana come out of the bullpen in April and May to conserve innings when he'd already made 50 major league relief appearances in the past 3 years to conserve his innings, and sending Eury to the pen to conserve innings in the middle of July when he's never pitched out of the pen and he's been our best starter over the past month and a half then you can't be helped.

i know this is what you're saying, but they were never limiting his innings. he outperformed expecations and the twins had a horrific rotation with just 1 exactly average pitcher and 4 well below average starters. He never expected to be called out on his bullshit and saw santana's innings years later and thought it was the ideal way to handle a pitchers innings.

[lou]

If you can't see the difference between having Johan Santana come out of the bullpen in April and May to conserve innings when he'd already made 50 major league relief appearances in the past 3 years to conserve his innings, and sending Eury to the pen to conserve innings in the middle of July when he's never pitched out of the pen and he's been our best starter over the past month and a half then you can't be helped.

So what you are saying is, maybe send him down to put him on a new workout regime and prep for this set up last 2 months of the year as that is all his arm inventory is?

[Nick]

So what you are saying is, maybe send him down to put him on a new workout regime and prep for this set up last 2 months of the year as that is all his arm inventory is?

You don’t know what he has left. Nobody does. Situation dictates how aggressive to be with his season workload. We’re in a situation where we need to push him while still being smart.

Ultimately, I think the financial reasons were the #1 reason for this happening if I had to guess. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s right back in the rotation once that magical date is passed. Saving $ is always the #1 priority for this franchise.

[fish16]

You don’t know what he has left. Nobody does. Situation dictates how aggressive to be with his season workload. We’re in a situation where we need to push him while still being smart.

Ultimately, I think the financial reasons were the #1 reason for this happening if I had to guess. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s right back in the rotation once that magical date is passed. Saving $ is always the #1 priority for this franchise.

Bingo. It’s a made up date and innings limit that just so magically happens to coincide with saving the franchise money, all while we piss away the season with cueto and hoeing for a month until either eury is back or rogers and Cabrera are back, neither of which seem close. I will guarantee you they will be at least 3-5 games out a playoff spot by the time eury comes back if they don’t acquire a sp. and they will couch it on preserving his health for the future when we can all see through the bullshit and acknowledge that it is to save money with a much further priority being That he is potentially available for a playoff run that they won’t be a part of in over a month from now

missing the playoffs for the 21st straight year while a so called billionaire saves a tenth of a percent of his investment over the course of 7 years is so fucking gangster though!!!!!

[lou]

You don’t know what he has left. Nobody does. Situation dictates how aggressive to be with his season workload. We’re in a situation where we need to push him while still being smart.

Ultimately, I think the financial reasons were the #1 reason for this happening if I had to guess. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s right back in the rotation once that magical date is passed. Saving $ is always the #1 priority for this franchise.

If your position is you don't know what he has left, my response is you don't know what he has left.

I don't think you push one of the most valuable assets in all of baseball (which I do think he is) past any physical limit here. I ask again - have they earned our trust with the pitchers as I think the pitchers are generally incredible. So incredible I would bet trading the farm and sticking with this group. Further, regardless of sending him down now, or shutting him down later, he is going to throw the same exact MLB innings. So why are we mad? Seriously, it's the same innings. They have months to throw him with whatever they feel he has left. We are mad because they can get the same output out of him..... and save money and project his health. What? We are MAD because they are being respective of his health, saving money, and it's not impacting the rotation at all???

As to the later, I did the July SP chart for you guys in an attempt to show how truly silly this is. The off days are very kind to be able to keep Sandy and Luzardo on full rest and skip guys over which maybe hasn't been realized. Cabrera was announced to rehab today which is no coincidence to be on normal rest for the 18th or 23rd. I think this will be pretty close and works on paper.

8 - Cabrera rehab 1
13 - Cabrera rehab 2

14 Sandy (BAL)
15 Luzardo
16 Garrett
17 Cueto, Hoeing, + Pen (STL)
18 Cabrera, or Hoeing + Pen day if he isn't ready. My gut is he will be ready as they frankly need him even if for 3-4 innings.
19 Sandy
OFF
21 Luzardo (COL)
22 Garrett
23 Cabrera
OFF
25 Sandy (TB)
26 Luzardo
OFF
28 Garrett (DET)
29 Cabrera
30 Sandy
31 Luzardo (PHI)
1 Eury
2 Garrett
3 Cabrera
Five man rotation totally reset

This is normal rest top to bottom. And this is without a SP trade which may happen on top of this. They are going to have to throw Cueto once in July.


As said before, why are you guys mad for literally "1" start. So the team gets to protect Eury's health, move innings so he pitches them against better teams (as better pitchers should play against better teams and Eury in my opinion is one of their better pitchers), and gets the save money? This could be literally tens of millions of dollars if he reaches his 90th percentile upside. This is called a hat trick my dudes. Throw the rats.

[lou]

Also want to mention I watched quite a bit of baseball in college in 2003 - does anybody remember what happened that season? Trying to come up with a revisionist history on Johan Santana just because you like to argue while in real life you were in elementary school and had literal no idea what was going on at the time, is not going to happen. Stop trying to make fetch happen. The Twins had Santana on a usage limit plan because they didn't want to throw him into the ground, full stop. They knew what they had, and so did the fans, and they had to build his arm up to carry a load. The fans hated all of those reliever appearances. And they accomplished that. The Twins were right. The Marlins should go on similar plans with Eury, Eder, and Meyer to get them all throwing MLB innings as soon as possible. Hopefully they do this next year. Feel free to agree to disagree, but I want the better arms throwing at the MLB level in any capacity ASAP. I think shifting Eury to a new roll will be fine for ROS. Feel free to agree to disagree.

Andrus was also 100% a smarter idea than signing Gurriel in the offseason IMO still. Sometimes moves don't work out (or else every team would win the world series every year, but this isn't a participation trophy business), but I believe in process and sound decision making. Signing an infield defender who can historically hit LHP enough to platoon with Wendle with good defense off a 3.5 WAR year for $3m smokes 39 year old Gurriel all day, and still does. Neither of these guys is impacting the team's record so if you are looking to try and do victory laps, the process of this move was 100% wrong and was dumb, even more dump with how much time Hampson has received, and the results are irrelevant as "everyone sucks here." This is a total nothing burger. Gurriel and Andrus are neither moving any needle in either direction as effectively replacement level players. So who cares? Again, enough with the anger. People can, and do, have different opinions then you and my apologies for being able to rationally explain mine.

More so, this is all fucking STUPID. The real focus should be on the thing we all agree with - why is Swanson, Turner, Boegarts, or Correra (or Nimmo) not on this team? Why are there no improvements yet which I (and others) have been yelling about for 6 weeks? As I continually say which I do not think anyone disagrees with - the problem is Bruce. All of this banter on all of this other literally irrelevant shit is stupid. The team needs to get some better players right now, so how about we as whatever this community is focus on them getting players? You know, speculate on moves, rather than be at each other's throats all the fucking time about completely stupid shit? Can this just stop already? Because it is not emanating from me.

[Namaste]

Bingo. It’s a made up date and innings limit that just so magically happens to coincide with saving the franchise money,

lou told all of us 3 months ago that this is what would happen with Eury.

[fish16]

lou told all of us 3 months ago that this is what would happen with Eury.

He said they would fuck with his service time but that they would wait to bring him up until the super 2 issue is done as opposed to bringing him up, letting him be the best pitcher in baseball for 2.5 months, and then send him down to save money

[Nick]

lou told all of us 3 months ago that this is what would happen with Eury.

I never doubted that they would do whatever it takes to save money. I may have hoped that the situation would dictate a monetary investment but I should know better now as a Marlins fan at this point.

[Nick]

If your position is you don't know what he has left, my response is you don't know what he has left.

I don't think you push one of the most valuable assets in all of baseball (which I do think he is) past any physical limit here. I ask again - have they earned our trust with the pitchers as I think the pitchers are generally incredible. So incredible I would bet trading the farm and sticking with this group. Further, regardless of sending him down now, or shutting him down later, he is going to throw the same exact MLB innings. So why are we mad? Seriously, it's the same innings. They have months to throw him with whatever they feel he has left. We are mad because they can get the same output out of him..... and save money and project his health. What? We are MAD because they are being respective of his health, saving money, and it's not impacting the rotation at all???

As to the later, I did the July SP chart for you guys in an attempt to show how truly silly this is. The off days are very kind to be able to keep Sandy and Luzardo on full rest and skip guys over which maybe hasn't been realized. Cabrera was announced to rehab today which is no coincidence to be on normal rest for the 18th or 23rd. I think this will be pretty close and works on paper.

8 - Cabrera rehab 1
13 - Cabrera rehab 2

14 Sandy (BAL)
15 Luzardo
16 Garrett
17 Cueto, Hoeing, + Pen (STL)
18 Cabrera, or Hoeing + Pen day if he isn't ready. My gut is he will be ready as they frankly need him even if for 3-4 innings.
19 Sandy
OFF
21 Luzardo (COL)
22 Garrett
23 Cabrera
OFF
25 Sandy (TB)
26 Luzardo
OFF
28 Garrett (DET)
29 Cabrera
30 Sandy
31 Luzardo (PHI)
1 Eury
2 Garrett
3 Cabrera
Five man rotation totally reset

This is normal rest top to bottom. And this is without a SP trade which may happen on top of this. They are going to have to throw Cueto once in July.


As said before, why are you guys mad for literally "1" start. So the team gets to protect Eury's health, move innings so he pitches them against better teams (as better pitchers should play against better teams and Eury in my opinion is one of their better pitchers), and gets the save money? This could be literally tens of millions of dollars if he reaches his 90th percentile upside. This is called a hat trick my dudes. Throw the rats.

If the situation plays out just the way you propose here then this had nothing to do with his health.