2023 Game Thread

[fish16]

aj puk now up to a 4.18 ERA. we have Johnny cueto and Bryan Hoeing as our 4/5 spot in our rotation. We have Jacob stallings on pace for 220 at bats, and one of the worst starters in baseball hitting 3rd in our lineup every single fucking day with no repercussions for terrible performance for months on end and limited major league success. And we have Sean Reynolds, George Soriano, Dylan Floro, Jt chargois, Huascar Brazoban and something named Robert Garcia currently in our bullpen.

We have the single worst owner in baseball not trying to actively move their team. They are going to blow this lead now due solely to this fucking dipshits cheapness and inability to know what the fuck he is doing.

[lou]

1. Please enlighten me on differences between competitive innings and innings he pitches down at AA?
2. Yeah I'll be upset about skipping 1-2 Eury starts when we miss out on the playoffs by 1-2 games.
3. Your example of Johan Santana is arbitrary and asinine. I can't even find any evidence that they sent him down to keep down his innings in 2002, looks like he started the year in AAA in 2002, got called up to the majors as a starter, and then worked out of the bullpen in September. He had worked out of the bullpen for the Twins in the previous 2 seasons. No minor league stint in 2003. Started in the bullpen then moved to starter later in the year. Also, how you have knowledge of what Twins fans were feeling back in 2002 and 2003 I'm not even going to ask.
4. Rogers is hurt, Cueto does suck and Cabrera is a mystery.

I can't imagine be pitches in AA. They aren't going to waste his innings down there when he is clearly MLB ready. I bet he is just throwing on the side and in the weight room and the ramp him back up for August. We'll see what they do. He's probably coming back as a 3-4 inning guy and will scale down in the playoffs if they make it.

The Santana example is also they radically managed his innings for 2 seasons and threw him 40 reliever appearances in 02/03 to manage his workload. That was unheard of 20 years ago. The Marlins would have to do this in reverse this year and have him come in short bursts now. But frankly, this should be the expectation next year so get ready as they should be throwing him as a reliever April/May next year and then work him up so he maxes around 140 IP in 2024. The analogy is - Santana was so good it was impossible to keep him off the field, their fans were going mental he was so good they just wanted him pitching, but the Twins did manage his arm, youth, and workload. Eury is so good they have to be diligent here and apply the same concept. He can't throw the load some of you want.

If all those other pitchers are hurt or suck, the need a SP for sure. We all are in accord here on that one.


Also, can we give some confidence in the front office that they understand how to manage their own pitchers? The starters are great. The lefty relievers are great even with this very unfortunate Puk outing. Scott is all of a sudden a few walks from Billy Wagner territory. They have turned Hoeing and Brazoban into 84 very acceptable innings so far. I think they have earned a benefit of the doubt here with Eury no? They have a real good handle on these guys. Why should we now not trust them when they keep doing so many great pitching things?

[lou]

This, I agree with you on.

I don’t see the point of wasting his innings in the minors. Just have him pitch up here until he’s done.

Also, why not just put him in the bullpen and have him pitch 2-3 high leverage innings like once every four days?

I guess you missed everyone yelling at me this was stupid earlier today, but that is certainly an option that makes sense to me. That's probably 1-2 HL innings every 4 days to split hairs also as he doesn't have the arm inventory to do more if it is rest of the season. He's still a kid.

[lou]

I don’t think team morale is going to lower because Eury Perez was sent down.

Players don’t look at things like fans do.

If that were the case, we’d be playing bad because they’d be upset that “bad luck” Segura is getting all the playing time despite sucking. Instead, Segura seems like a veteran the players like.

Cueto sucks too, but I don’t think the rest of the team will be disappointed to have him back from a team morale standpoint.

We might get swept this weekend because that’s baseball, but I don’t think it’ll be because the players are upset or anything like that.

The move is disappointing as a fan though, I agree.

Yep.

But losing this game in this fashion isn't great.

[lou]

What would it take to get Rich Hill and David Bednar?

Meyer/Eder/Watson/Cappe/Berry centerpiece and throw ins. Bednar is insanely valuable with 3 more years of control. He has a 4.2 WAR his last 140 innings. That is superstar production. Not sure this is worth it for the Marlins.

I like the Hill idea though for a cheap vet. McCutchen also makes sense. Do a second move for Candelario and Harvey, and all of a sudden that's a pretty neat four player addition that may not cost those 5 games above.

[fish16]

I can't imagine be pitches in AA. They aren't going to waste his innings down there when he is clearly MLB ready. I bet he is just throwing on the side and in the weight room and the ramp him back up for August. We'll see what they do. He's probably coming back as a 3-4 inning guy and will scale down in the playoffs if they make it.

The Santana example is also they radically managed his innings for 2 seasons and threw him 40 reliever appearances in 02/03 to manage his workload. That was unheard of 20 years ago. The Marlins would have to do this in reverse this year and have him come in short bursts now. But frankly, this should be the expectation next year so get ready as they should be throwing him as a reliever April/May next year and then work him up so he maxes around 140 IP in 2024. The analogy is - Santana was so good it was impossible to keep him off the field, their fans were going mental he was so good they just wanted him pitching, but the Twins did manage his arm, youth, and workload. Eury is so good they have to be diligent here and apply the same concept. He can't throw the load some of you want.

If all those other pitchers are hurt or suck, the need a SP for sure. We all are in accord here on that one.


Also, can we give some confidence in the front office that they understand how to manage their own pitchers? The starters are great. The lefty relievers are great even with this very unfortunate Puk outing. Scott is all of a sudden a few walks from Billy Wagner territory. They have turned Hoeing and Brazoban into 84 very acceptable innings so far. I think they have earned a benefit of the doubt here with Eury no? They have a real good handle on these guys. Why should we now not trust them when they keep doing so many great pitching things?

He isnt coming back as a 3-4 inning guy. They sent him down because they didnt want to limit him to 5 innings max a start and tax the bullpen.

For Santana, it wasnt this grand scheme to manage his workload. What your doing is just completely misrepresenting the situation from 20 years ago and expecting no one to call you on your consistent bullshit 20 years later. Kind of like how you thought it was unimpeachable that anyone queastion your nonsense that DLC is breaking out because of a swing change when in reality the guy is a fucking mediocre 4th OF at best.

Santana's situation was because he wasnt very good and expectations for a rule 5 pick were incredibly low and kept getting exceeded. he got sent down due to terrible performance and managed to develop one of the best changeups in mahor league history. The whole "managing his workload in 2002/2003 was him going from 43.2 innings in 2001, and then 156 and 158 each in 2002 and 2003. that's not managing innings, that's getting lucky on a rule 5 pick and him developing one of the best changeups in league history. Do you think being super careful with this precious arm is increasing a guys innings buy 113 in a single year? If it is, Eury should be pitching 200 innings this year. that's what actually happened, no matter how many times you want to continue to lie about what actually happened. Speaking of, you said twins fans were up in arms about them doing this back then. Going based off what you said regarding your age, that would have made you 16-17 at the time. any proof that actually happened or are you pretty blatantly making shit up.

[fish16]

Yep.

But losing this game in this fashion isn't great.

team morale absolutely is lowered by replacing the best pitcher in baseball based off an arbitrary bullshit innings limit that they made up with a guy in cueto who everyone in the organization has seen get rocked every single time he has gone to pitch for the last 5 full months. It indicates your owner cares more about money than actually giving a shit about winning. And tonight;s bullshit further exemplifies that. To think that doesnt make an impact is about as dumb as limiting one of the best pitchers in baseball to 120 innings based on absolutely no scientific date.

[Nick]

The Santana example is also they radically managed his innings for 2 seasons and threw him 40 reliever appearances in 02/03 to manage his workload. That was unheard of 20 years ago. The Marlins would have to do this in reverse this year and have him come in short bursts now. But frankly, this should be the expectation next year so get ready as they should be throwing him as a reliever April/May next year and then work him up so he maxes around 140 IP in 2024. The analogy is - Santana was so good it was impossible to keep him off the field, their fans were going mental he was so good they just wanted him pitching, but the Twins did manage his arm, youth, and workload. Eury is so good they have to be diligent here and apply the same concept. He can't throw the load some of you want.

You conveniently leave out the fact that Santana pitched in the major leagues for a full 2 years out of the bullpen before the period of time you're talking about. He was not a top pitching prospect, the Astros literally gave him away for free, he was a guy who had already done both starting and relieving in his career so they felt comfortable about him going back and forth. In 2002 he was a nothing reliever who they decided to convert to starter and hit paydirt when he perfected his changeup in AAA. Don't act like this was some elaborate plan that was concocted by their FO.

[Nick]

I guess you missed everyone yelling at me this was stupid earlier today, but that is certainly an option that makes sense to me. That's probably 1-2 HL innings every 4 days to split hairs also as he doesn't have the arm inventory to do more if it is rest of the season. He's still a kid.

The problem is you don't know when this high leverage situation is going to arise. That's why I say it's not all about the innings, but having to prepare to be ready everyday takes a toll that can't be quantified by any neat number that lou wants to use to make decisions.

[fish16]

You conveniently leave out the fact that Santana pitched in the major leagues for a full 2 years out of the bullpen before the period of time you're talking about. He was not a top pitching prospect, the Astros literally gave him away for free, he was a guy who had already done both starting and relieving in his career so they felt comfortable about him going back and forth. In 2002 he was a nothing reliever who they decided to convert to starter and hit paydirt when he perfected his changeup in AAA. Don't act like this was some elaborate plan that was concocted by their FO.

its just such bullshit, he's been pulling the same bullshit card regarding pitcher development since last year when he was saying we should do the same thing with Cabrera and luzardo. he acts holier than thou and when you call him out on his nonsense, he just cites the one article that agrees with his position and then moves on when he is proven wrong. See Andrus, Gurriel, DLC, and any of number of players over the years. For example, the DLC swing change has completely singed my eyebrows off at this point. as i said when he was consistently touting DLC, the "swing change" narrative is the same exact thing as the guy who shows up to camp in the best shape of his career. DLC is the same exact player he has been his entire minor league career. He is a 4th OF. How much more proof do you need?

But dont worry, he will waste everyones time with a 9 paragraph preview into the 40 man roster situation in 3 years when we can really get a good read onto how many guys in low a right now might need to be protected on the 40 man at that point. Im eagerly awating his preview on what we do with marco vargas and the 40 man roster in 2028 as if anyone gives a fuck or as if it will be remotely accurate. He is a fake expert and acts like he cant possibly be wrong when he is consistently wrong every fucking offseason and regular season, and then just moves on and sweeps it under the rug and doesnt acknowledge it when it happens. He's been doing the same thing for years dating back to the other site.

[lou]

I'm so wrong all the time, like the time I mentioned what they are going to do with Eury this morning, got yelled at, and then they literally did it hours later. Sorry you are not handling this loss and the realization I am right by saying for -6 weeks- they should get players when you said they needed minor changes. But welcome to the party. They need major changes. Welcome to the 1 run loss regression. I see you are taking it well.

Not sure why I bother posting sometimes.

[lou]

The problem is you don't know when this high leverage situation is going to arise. That's why I say it's not all about the innings, but having to prepare to be ready everyday takes a toll that can't be quantified by any neat number that lou wants to use to make decisions.

Just put him on a schedule and stick with it.

Open games with him then - top of the lineup is always high leverage in a 0-0 game. This is not the end of the world my god.

[fish16]

I'm so wrong all the time, like the time I mentioned what they are going to do with Eury this morning, got yelled at, and then they literally did it hours later. Sorry you are not handling this loss and the realization I am right by saying for -6 weeks- they should get players when you said they needed minor changes. But welcome to the party. They need major changes. Welcome to the 1 run loss regression. I see you are taking it well.

Not sure why I bother posting sometimes.

no one argued or yelled at you about whether they were going to do that, they argued why its a completely fucking dumb mistake. If you want, we can just replace you posting with mish's twitter feed?


Care to talk about DLC, Andrus, Gurriel or the fact that you are just bullshitting your way for over a year about the "santana" plan for our pitchers?

[lou]

You conveniently leave out the fact that Santana pitched in the major leagues for a full 2 years out of the bullpen before the period of time you're talking about. He was not a top pitching prospect, the Astros literally gave him away for free, he was a guy who had already done both starting and relieving in his career so they felt comfortable about him going back and forth. In 2002 he was a nothing reliever who they decided to convert to starter and hit paydirt when he perfected his changeup in AAA. Don't act like this was some elaborate plan that was concocted by their FO.

Check the 2003 game log for Santana. https://www.fangraphs.com/players/jo...=0&season=2003

Godspeed.

[fish16]

Just put him on a schedule and stick with it.

Open games with him then - top of the lineup is always high leverage in a 0-0 game. This is not the end of the world my god.

or how about dont make up a completely arbitrary innings limit for a guy who has exceeded every expectation for 4 fucking years when your other options are Bryan Hoeing and Johnny Cueto currently in the best chance to make the real playoffs in literally 20 years. There is 0 reason he should not be up here pitching every 5th day with caution until at the very least Cabrera is back.

It is what it is and we all know what it is- it's a cheap ass owner who has no business owning a major league franchise. And it will inevitably cost them a playoff spot for the 20th consecutive year.