2023 Game Thread

[Nick]

Further, regardless of sending him down now, or shutting him down later, he is going to throw the same exact MLB innings. So why are we mad? Seriously, it's the same innings. They have months to throw him with whatever they feel he has left. We are mad because they can get the same output out of him..... and save money and project his health. What? We are MAD because they are being respective of his health, saving money, and it's not impacting the rotation at all???

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that my position is to not shut him down unless there is a reason to shut him down. Keep him on a short leash, keep his pitches down, but pitch him every 5 days until there's signs of trouble or we're out of the race or clinched or whatever.

[Nick]

This is what it should be:

14 Sandy (BAL)
15 Luzardo
16 Garrett
17 Eury
18 Cabrera or Hoeing (Cueto should not even be in the picture)
19 Sandy
OFF
21 Luzardo (COL)
22 Garrett
23 Eury
OFF
25 Cabrera/Hoeing
26 Sandy
OFF
28 Luzardo
29 Garrett
30 Eury
31 Cabrera/Hoeing
1 Sandy

So yeah, 3 starts in between now and when you have him going, lou. What are the chances that our spot in the playoffs are decided by 2-3 games? I would say pretty damn good.

[fish16]

This is what it should be:

14 Sandy (BAL)
15 Luzardo
16 Garrett
17 Eury
18 Cabrera or Hoeing (Cueto should not even be in the picture)
19 Sandy
OFF
21 Luzardo (COL)
22 Garrett
23 Eury
OFF
25 Cabrera/Hoeing
26 Sandy
OFF
28 Luzardo
29 Garrett
30 Eury
31 Cabrera/Hoeing
1 Sandy

So yeah, 3 starts in between now and when you have him going, lou. What are the chances that our spot in the playoffs are decided by 2-3 games? I would say pretty damn good.

Exactly. Acting like we’re missing 1 eury start by sending him down for a month because we have off days is just absurd. You’re missing 3 starts of a guy who has been the best pitcher in baseball for 2.5 months and has shown no signs of slowing down, all while we are in a crazy close playoff chase, all to save money in the future because we
have an owner who has no business owning this team

[Todd]

I have never understood why it is an IP and not pitch count limit to begin with. As someone else alluded to you could have a good outing where you are at 90 pitches through 7 yet that is somehow less preferable to a rough start where you are at 80 pitches through 5. That is asinine.

I'd like to see a system with young arms where you set their limit low to start. Maybe 2 starts at 65 pitches. Then keep stretching it there. The next 4 GS at 70. Then 4 more at 75. Then 4 at 80. Then 4 at 85. 4 at 90. Then set a hard limit at 95 for the rest of the season.

[lou]

This is what it should be:

14 Sandy (BAL)
15 Luzardo
16 Garrett
17 Eury
18 Cabrera or Hoeing (Cueto should not even be in the picture)
19 Sandy
OFF
21 Luzardo (COL)
22 Garrett
23 Eury
OFF
25 Cabrera/Hoeing
26 Sandy
OFF
28 Luzardo
29 Garrett
30 Eury
31 Cabrera/Hoeing
1 Sandy

So yeah, 3 starts in between now and when you have him going, lou. What are the chances that our spot in the playoffs are decided by 2-3 games? I would say pretty damn good.

Here's the issue for me - he will have the same exact # of starts (or innings) whether they do this plan above, or the kick him to August 1st plan they seem to be doing. So that isn't exactly a selling point to me saying it's 3 starts. It's not 3 starts. It is -0- starts and his availability is being shifted only. They still get the full benefit of Eury here. We all agree he will have an innings cap, whether that is 25, 30, or even 40-45 if I am way off here and fish16 is right? They have 70+ games left. It's going to be so easy to get him 25-45 innings innings over 50 games.

So to recap:

-Same amount of innings at the MLB level
-Those innings will be against tougher opponents
-Cueto or Hoeing may get one extra start against St. Louis (non-contender) in July because of this (I say may as they could trade for someone)
-They will likely save money - which could be anywhere from $5-20+ million - as I imagine they will deflect a super2 status doing all of this
-We are not doctors nor his physical training staff, and the Marlins have monitored his day to day for years. They also have been very good, maybe the best in baseball, in developing this generation of pitchers.
-But we don't care about that, no deference is given, and do not trust them to handle Eury healthwise in July 2023.


To each their own, but for me, the combination of losing literally no innings, trusting their pitching developmental which is all they are good at (you joked they should just draft a pitcher and not a hitter and I mean, I get it and I don't think that is a joke. That may be preferable), and yes, saving money. Potentially a shitload of money. I don't think we should be angry. This is a drop in the bucket to me compared to their lack of offseason FA spending which cannot be fixed, or now refusing to make a larger impact trade 4-6 weeks ago when it was apparent this team needed major offensive help. It's not too late as they generally did well during this period thank god, but the time is frankly the ASB to make a move for a bat, and maybe a SP if Rogers is that hurt, Cueto is a pumpkin, and Cabrera can't be trusted to be healthy, and go for it. They have looked below average and the 78 win team we expected at best for the most part since the last Boston game and it's a blessing they have gone 4-4 in these games.

The machine I rage against is Bruce for not giving Kim financial support to sign or trade for whatever. Not sure who said it, but what did that dude mean when he said he is going to support the FO. Let's see that commitment. It's a few weeks late, but better late than never. I am just respectfully saying here, we have a A LOT to be pissed off about but this ain't one of them to me. I will eat the crow if Eury doesn't pitch 25+ more innings at the MLB level, but I can't imagine that happening.

[lou]

I have never understood why it is an IP and not pitch count limit to begin with. As someone else alluded to you could have a good outing where you are at 90 pitches through 7 yet that is somehow less preferable to a rough start where you are at 80 pitches through 5. That is asinine.

I'd like to see a system with young arms where you set their limit low to start. Maybe 2 starts at 65 pitches. Then keep stretching it there. The next 4 GS at 70. Then 4 more at 75. Then 4 at 80. Then 4 at 85. 4 at 90. Then set a hard limit at 95 for the rest of the season.

It is absolutely a pitch count + stressful innings, but how far of a deep dive can we go on a message board so see if Eury's pitch counts are historically lower than other 20 year olds? I would love this data point if someone wants to take this on. LOVE it. Generally, it's going to be about 110 innings (this is what the org said), and if he is really cruising, he'll get a few more (I think those few more should be the playoff reserve). But shooting for 140 is a lot absent quite a few immaculate innings and low pitch counts.


The bold is what the Twins did in 2003 with Johan Santana, and this is what they should do with Eury, Eder, and Meyer next year so they are slowly built up to end strong and we never get into these shut down talks. We can tinker with those appearances/quantities, but Eury is probably looking 140 next year, so why not do something like this:

10 starts - 3 inning average
5 starts - 4 innings average
5 starts - 5 inning average
11 starts - 6 inning average
=31 starts, 141 innings

Tinker as you want

And if he is a 1.00 whip, cruising, easy inning, low stress guy. You can drop 5-10 more on that somewhere easy on a case by case. Or save those for the playoffs. You'll see 3-4 random spike games prior to July for Johan in his 2003 game log.

If you want a 100 inning version for Meyer and Eder, it's probably something like this, and this is regardless of MLB or MiLB innings.

22 reliever appearances - 1 inning average
6 appearances - 2 innings
12 appearances - 3 innings
7 appearances - 4 innings
=47 appearances, 98 innings

Clearly room to add there as needed. And you can always rapidly scale up if needed.

[Nick]

Here's the issue for me - he will have the same exact # of starts (or innings) whether they do this plan above, or the kick him to August 1st plan they seem to be doing. So that isn't exactly a selling point to me saying it's 3 starts. It's not 3 starts. It is -0- starts and his availability is being shifted only. They still get the full benefit of Eury here. We all agree he will have an innings cap, whether that is 25, 30, or even 40-45 if I am way off here and fish16 is right? They have 70+ games left. It's going to be so easy to get him 25-45 innings innings over 50 games.

So to recap:

-Same amount of innings at the MLB level
-Those innings will be against tougher opponents
-Cueto or Hoeing may get one extra start against St. Louis (non-contender) in July because of this (I say may as they could trade for someone)
-They will likely save money - which could be anywhere from $5-20+ million - as I imagine they will deflect a super2 status doing all of this
-We are not doctors nor his physical training staff, and the Marlins have monitored his day to day for years. They also have been very good, maybe the best in baseball, in developing this generation of pitchers.
-But we don't care about that, no deference is given, and do not trust them to handle Eury healthwise in July 2023.


To each their own, but for me, the combination of losing literally no innings, trusting their pitching developmental which is all they are good at (you joked they should just draft a pitcher and not a hitter and I mean, I get it and I don't think that is a joke. That may be preferable), and yes, saving money. Potentially a shitload of money. I don't think we should be angry. This is a drop in the bucket to me compared to their lack of offseason FA spending which cannot be fixed, or now refusing to make a larger impact trade 4-6 weeks ago when it was apparent this team needed major offensive help. It's not too late as they generally did well during this period thank god, but the time is frankly the ASB to make a move for a bat, and maybe a SP if Rogers is that hurt, Cueto is a pumpkin, and Cabrera can't be trusted to be healthy, and go for it. They have looked below average and the 78 win team we expected at best for the most part since the last Boston game and it's a blessing they have gone 4-4 in these games.

The machine I rage against is Bruce for not giving Kim financial support to sign or trade for whatever. Not sure who said it, but what did that dude mean when he said he is going to support the FO. Let's see that commitment. It's a few weeks late, but better late than never. I am just respectfully saying here, we have a A LOT to be pissed off about but this ain't one of them to me. I will eat the crow if Eury doesn't pitch 25+ more innings at the MLB level, but I can't imagine that happening.

We do not agree on this, I don't know how I can make myself more clear. You write a dissertation and don't take the time to read what other people are arguing against you.

[Lee Stone]

Anybody have a favorite for tomorrow's draft? I'm all for a catcher, of course, provided that Teel is still on the board. If he goes before Miami's pick, I don't really care who they take. Looks like an extremely weak draft all around.

[fish16]

The twins were so careful with Santana that he threw 43 innings total in 2001 and 156 in 2002. If the plan was so grand and masterful, why did they then only pitch him 158 in 2003 for a total increase year over year of 2 whole innings. It’s almost as if there wasn’t this master plan and this is revisionist history bullshit. He joined the rotation eventually because he was surprisingly great for them and they had a guy named Rick reed with a 5.07 era in the rotation and another named joe mays with a 6.30 era in the rotation.

he also threw 160 innings in a single year in a ball in 1999. It’s just complete revisionist history

[fish16]

Garrett hampson starting today at 2b with Arraez not starting. If only we had a better option to spell Arraez wasting in aaa

[fish16]

Xavier edwards is now hitting .360 with an .883 OPS in AAA. He has a fucking 10.6 BB% and a 5.3 K%. For reference, Arraez also has a 5.3 K% this year at the big league level. It is completely absurd that he is not up here and hampson is. They are actively making their team worse by those moves.

As of july 5th, he had a 2.7 K% since they optioned him back to AAA, and he has struck out just 1 time in his 15 plate appearances since that stat came out on july 5th. He is also 18 for 19 on the year stealing bases. It's not like he's old, he is 23 and absolutely demolishing the level. There has been no reason for over a month now why he is not with the big league roster. When guys perform like this, you find at bats for them at the big league level.

[Namaste]

It’s almost as if the Marlins FO knows something about Edwards that we fans on the outside don’t know

[fish16]

It’s almost as if the Marlins FO knows something about Edwards that we fans on the outside don’t know

or they have no clue how to develop hitters considering the only 2 we have drafted by ourselves and developed in 6 years are a backup C and a guy who is now a reliever and have a god awful draft record in the last 5 years for hitters.

[Nick]

It’s almost as if the Marlins FO knows something about Edwards that we fans on the outside don’t know

Or just general distrust of players without major league experience. They’ve proven over and over they will play guys with major league experience who have played poorly in the majors over guys that who are killing it in the minors but don’t have major league experience.

[fish16]

god im so sick of trea turner kicking our ass no matter what team he is on.