2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[Nick]

Random Trade Idea:

Guardians Get:

Pablo Lopez
Jorge Soler

Marlins Get:
Brayan Rocchio
George Valera
Bo Naylor

[lou]

Random Trade Idea:

Guardians Get:

Pablo Lopez
Jorge Soler

Marlins Get:
Brayan Rocchio
George Valera
Bo Naylor

I think you need older guys ready to carry full loads immediately. Those guys are too young and we're wasting another Sandy year while they get feet wet.

[sports24/7]

Maybe this is a pipe dream, but I feel like the dream scenario is putting a package together for Gabriel Moreno and Teoscar Hernandez. There were rumors that the Blue Jays were looking at Pablo before, and with them having a nice year, you'd think they'd be even more aggressive in getting another front line starter. Maybe you add in a JJ Bleday, some more pitching prospects, Anthony Bass, and a couple of hitters who could help them now like Brian Anderson and Aguilar.

The drawback there is Hernandez isn't necessarily the ideal CF. But he has played there, and there isn't exactly an abundance of CF options available out there that can also hit. But from a Marlins perspective you're getting a big time prospect that also fills an organizational need in Moreno, and adding a nice bat that can play CF, who's young enough that you can have him for a while, but good enough now that you're not wasting your window with Sandy and your pitching staff. And from a Blue Jays perspective, you're strengthening your pitching staff significantly with one of the better pitchers in baseball this year, and a really good bullpen arm; and while you're losing your 5 hitter, you have Tapia on the roster, and now get Anderson, who can play RF and provide adequate hitting. You also gain a guy who can be the future there in Bleday.

[sports24/7]

The most frustrating thing about where we are as a franchise, is there was a fairly easy way to spend maybe just a little more money and make this team significantly better in the offseason, and I think it was obvious to most fans. Instead of overpaying for two mediocre bats, just pay Marte what he wanted giving you a guy who can play good CF and hit. Then go out and spend just a little bit on the bullpen. You could have still made the Wendel and Stallings trades, which seemed fine at the time (even though the Stallings one has been bad), and that alone probably has the Marlins fighting for a wildcard birth right now. If they really wanted, they could have also signed Correa or a Schwarber, which really would have bolstered the lineup, or gone out and signed a cheaper FA bat like Joc Pederson, and would still have them in the bottom third of the league in spending. But even without those moves, you could have been a much better team spending roughly what they did spend. It's just been so maddening to watch this train wreck in slow motion where we all pretty much saw it going.

[Lee Stone]

Hard times will continue as far as I can see. Coming into the season, I was enthusiastic about just two position playiers. Chisholm and Jesus Sanchez. I sold all my J Sanchez stock a few weeks ago - just doesn't show signs of becoming a competent major leaguer because he hacks at everything. Chisholm was named to the All Stars but has come up quite a bit short of what I hoped he would be. He could be great if he changed his view of himself, shortened his swing, hit to all fields, and bunted routinely, but we all know that's not going to happen.

As I see it, Alcantara and Lopez are the two guys to sell high on. Lopez could possibly net Marte from Seattle. Alcantara could net a batch of Blue Jay or Cardinal prospects. As a side note, Seattle and St. Louis were the teams that traded those two pitchers to the Marlins. Despite the loss of those prime starters in lopsided deals, the Mariners and Cardinals advanced as contenders simply because they operate at a much higher level than Miami.

[lou]

Hard times will continue as far as I can see. Coming into the season, I was enthusiastic about just two position playiers. Chisholm and Jesus Sanchez. I sold all my J Sanchez stock a few weeks ago - just doesn't show signs of becoming a competent major leaguer because he hacks at everything. Chisholm was named to the All Stars but has come up quite a bit short of what I hoped he would be. He could be great if he changed his view of himself, shortened his swing, hit to all fields, and bunted routinely, but we all know that's not going to happen.

As I see it, Alcantara and Lopez are the two guys to sell high on. Lopez could possibly net Marte from Seattle. Alcantara could net a batch of Blue Jay or Cardinal prospects. As a side note, Seattle and St. Louis were the teams that traded those two pitchers to the Marlins. Despite the loss of those prime starters in lopsided deals, the Mariners and Cardinals advanced as contenders simply because they operate at a much higher level than Miami.

*You mean St. Louis spends double on payroll so they can afford to trade prospects and sign/keep guys to make up the difference and Seattle spends over $35m more. "Higher level." This is the broken record - Bruce needs to spend closer to $110m. Minimum $90m as that can at least get another 2-3 "Aguilar/Wendle/Rojas/Anderson" type year to year free agents to build out the roster.


Unless we're getting Julio Rodriguez, not sure trading Sandy to either of those teams is possible. Seattle doesn't have the goods without Julio. No package works for me. No player on Toronto is worth him. No one. Nor any combination. We'd need 3 of them, and I doubt they'd move Bichette, Kirk/Moreno, and Martinez as that's the 3 player package minimum to not hang up for me. I can't put into words how valuable Sandy is with 5 more years of control of cost certainty in an era no one throws innings. The Marlins are so lucky.


You can sell me on Lopez for N. Marte though. I'd prefer someone more MLB ready, but he's perfect and they can rely on Rojas next year.... provided we're also getting Kyle Lewis in that deal who I think will be fine longterm and he should be able to handle CF with Sanchez (who you shouldn't write off even if he's a 4th OF versus RHP. And there is Burdick and Bleday maybe). That does solve two problems, and you can easily throw them Bass, Berti, and maybe something else prospect wise, if even needed as those guys would really help them.

Actually kind of like that one Lee, assuming Lewis is also in the deal. That then REALLY opens them up to trading say Cabrera, Cooper, Wendle, and pick a pitcher (Sulser, Hernandez, Floro, Okert, Bleier) for Nolan Gorman and 2-3 FV40+/FV40 prospects. Big upgrades for them for a guy relatively blocked with Arenado/Goldy/Walker as discussed.

So hypothetically, it's this:

Pablo, Bass, Berti, maybe secondary prospects -> N. Marte and Kyle Lewis. They can extend Pablo so they feel they get good value. Ala Berrios.
Cabrera, Wendle, Cooper, Okert -> Gorman and 3-4 FV40ish guys who slot top 15-30 in Marlins system or so. Those guys could also be shipped to SEA

So for roughly $64million(So cheap!!!)

Fortes, Stallings
Lewin
Jazz
Rojas, ____
Gorman (plays a lot of 1B too), Anderson
Bleday
K. Lewis, Sanchez
Garcia
Soler

Sandy, Luzardo, Meyer, Rogers, Garrett
_____, Bender, Pop, Poteet, Hernandez
Bleier, Scott, ____

Top prospects which is just great - Eury, N. Marte, Berry, Salas, Watson, Eder, Lewis, Cappe, Burdick, Fulton, Morisette, Mack, Sixto, Miller, Nunez, R. Hernandez, Milbrandt, multiple new Cards prospects, multiple RP types (Soriano, McCambley, Reynolds, Nardi)

And you kind of love this as Eury, Marte, Berry, Eder, Sixto, Burdick, and depth relievers can push onto this team within a year. Absolutely no one is getting expensive here besides Jazz for years as even arbitration tenders for Rogers/Luzardo are going to be reasonable given performance/injuries this season.


So that payroll is LOW AS FUCK and they'd have near perfect pipelines besides the OF being a question mark:

C (Stallings/Fortes -> Henry -> Mack/Hernandez)
1B (Lewin -> Berry -> Gorman)
2B (Jazz, and if he fails Watson/Lewis/Morisette)
SS (Rojas -> Marte -> Watson/Nunez)
3B (Anderson -> Gorman -> Salas/Cappe)
SP (Sandy/Luzardo/Meyer/Rogers/Garrett -> Eury/Eder/Sixto/Fulton -> Miller/Millbrandt/Fitterer)
RP Plenty of middle/back end RP

So in this scenario I think you'd sign another CF longterm (NIMMO!!!!!!) and one of Bleday/Sanchez is kicked to AAA and let them fight their way back on the team. They have options so let them battle with Burdick. I think you'd then sign a veteran SP to push Garrett to the bullpen, and effectively all of these guys (veteran SP, Garrett, Poteet, Hernandez) are bulk relievers getting 90-110+ innings each. That then leaves a backup middle infielder which is cheap (Jose Iglesias? Can be anyone), and then what all of you want is the final piece - a fancy RP. Maybe old man Bard on a 1 year deal to get saves for a contender.


I frankly don't think either of those SEA/STL ideas are that bold considering it's Pablo and he's going to cost someone good and that's quite a play now haul for STL and everyone is controlled next year for them so it's not a rental...

What would be bold is signing Nimmo/veteran SP/veteran RP and getting Bruce to spend to $90-95m and let's be real here, she'd be able to trade at least one of Salas/Watson, one of Sanchez/Bleday/Burdick, and another FV40 guy or two for another upgrade on top of this. That's not quite making a Yelich trade for a final piece, but I'm imagining that can get a pretty good play now longterm arm, or upgrade to Stallings, or upgrade to Lewin, or upgrade to 4th outfielder and it's a truly longterm OF there as they could do that as someone is going to eventually DH and move guys around. Marlins can easily make that kind of move and have a strong farm still. A silver lining of sucking this year is another premium pick next year to note....


In any event, they can do this I think fairly easily and I bet this is a serious contender:

Fortes, Stallings < -- Henry in AAA
Gorman, Lewin < -- Berry mid season
Jazz < -- Williams in AAA
Rojas, J. Iglesias < -- Marte if he explodes
Anderson
K. Lewis < -- Bleday in AAA
Nimmo, "Major trade upgrade moving Salas/Sanchez or Burdick/FV40 guy for a better OF"
Garcia
Soler

Sandy, Luzardo, Meyer, Rogers, Clevinger/Kluber/Boyd/whoever < -- Eury and Sixto mid season, maybe Eder if fully healthy
Bard, Bender, Pop, Poteet, Hernandez
Bleier, Scott, Garrett < -- Nardi mid season


We're talking about depth relievers being the only question mark (maybe Sixto solves this problem pretty quickly?), and they are pretty good at that one.

LFG?

[Lee Stone]

How do you get out of playing Garcia and Soler?

[Erick]

Hard times will continue as far as I can see. Coming into the season, I was enthusiastic about just two position playiers. Chisholm and Jesus Sanchez. I sold all my J Sanchez stock a few weeks ago - just doesn't show signs of becoming a competent major leaguer because he hacks at everything. Chisholm was named to the All Stars but has come up quite a bit short of what I hoped he would be. He could be great if he changed his view of himself, shortened his swing, hit to all fields, and bunted routinely, but we all know that's not going to happen.

As I see it, Alcantara and Lopez are the two guys to sell high on. Lopez could possibly net Marte from Seattle. Alcantara could net a batch of Blue Jay or Cardinal prospects. As a side note, Seattle and St. Louis were the teams that traded those two pitchers to the Marlins. Despite the loss of those prime starters in lopsided deals, the Mariners and Cardinals advanced as contenders simply because they operate at a much higher level than Miami.

It’s hard to believe that a Marlins fan thinks trading Sandy is a good idea in 2022.

It’s one thing to be Todd and say he was going to be a #5 at best when he was a prospect, but this is another level of absurd.

[Lee Stone]

It’s hard to believe that a Marlins fan thinks trading Sandy is a good idea in 2022.

It’s one thing to be Todd and say he was going to be a #5 at best when he was a prospect, but this is another level of absurd.

You have to trade quality to get quality. To get multiple everyday contributors, you have to give something. Alcantara's value will never be better.

[lou]

How do you get out of playing Garcia and Soler?

You don't. Too much to salary dump for either and despite this season, they should be better and have real upside still. Statcast still loves Soler, not so much Garcia. After 2023 determination of what to do with them. Or maybe after Super 2 next year if Berry/Bleday are really that good, etc.

But you can mitigate against them by building a full team. For instance, use the SEA/STL hypothetical above where they get Lewis and Gorman + Nimmo in FA + further trade for another OF with Salas/Watson, one of Burdick/Sanchez, and other FV40 guys. You can do this as the core lineup:

Fortes, Stallings
Lewin
Jazz
Rojas, TBD backup SS
Gorman
K. Lewis
Nimmo
Anderson, Garcia
Whatever new LF/CF you traded for, Soler

You can get them on the bench versus RHP and swap them in against lefty starters, etc. Bench Lewin and whoever of Gorman/Lewis/Nimmo/Anderson/Other OF needs a day off.

That team could be really good offensively and defensively, and Bleday is in AAA, one of Sanchez/Burdick is in AAA, and Berry presumably AA (as well as N.Marte in AAA) for some real OOMPH if there are injuries or they just blossom. However, Soler should be back to normal .800-825+ with hot streaks soon so he's really fine and as advertised. Garcia may just be an exceptionally expensive hitter against LHP and solid bench defender. It is what it is with him. That one looks like a misfire for sure.

I think the interesting part is fast forward this to 2024. Let's just say you DFA Garcia and eat it, trade Soler because that is more amenable in a final contract year, Anderson is a FA and gone, and Rojas is a free agent and gone..... so you then add Bleday, Burdick/Sanchez, Berry, and Marte to the team completely internal and it costs you $3m for all 4 of them. Or, call it combined $15m for 4 roster spots eating Garcia. That's pretty cheap for 4 roster spots ignoring dead money. I'm not saying we are headed there or they can eat it yet, but this is the type of thing that makes sense and why if they do fall out this next week, doing those STL/SEA trades makes sense to build depth. You've set yourself up to deflect money if needed. Which is important if Bruce won't go over $100m.


Basically, they have so many assets and so much money even at a $90-100m payroll there is really -0- excuse. I agree Bruce/Kim/FO have failed the first big test of this year, but everything is still incredibly set up if they do it right. But they have to make 1-3 really big strategic trades and move some real names, and add at least another middle tier free agent and another 1 year veteran to make it happen.

[lou]

You have to trade quality to get quality. To get multiple everyday contributors, you have to give something. Alcantara's value will never be better.

Sure go get Julio Rodrigez. I'll wait.

This is insane Lee. Sandy is controlled 5 years. You don't trade these players for Lewis Brinson, Monte Harrison, and Isan Diaz unless you're a moron.

[Erick]

You have to trade quality to get quality. To get multiple everyday contributors, you have to give something. Alcantara's value will never be better.

Alcantara is a top 5 value in the whole entire sport, but ok.

Let’s trade him for Lewis Brinson, Monte Harrison, and Isan Diaz.

[Erick]

Sure go get Julio Rodrigez. I'll wait.

This is insane Lee. Sandy is controlled 5 years. You don't trade these players for Lewis Brinson, Monte Harrison, and Isan Diaz unless you're a moron.

We used the same example at the same time lol.

Edit: My post 1 minute later than yours, but I hadn’t even read it.

[lou]

We used the same example at the same time lol.

Edit: My post 1 minute later than yours, but I hadn’t even read it.

No clarification is needed. This is just insane.

Fangraphs will have their trade value article out soon, and I bet he is somewhere 3-5. Julio, Acuna, Sandy/Tatis/Franco. I bet that's the list.

[sports24/7]

Trading the best pitcher in baseball on a great deal for prospects because “you have to trade good players to get good players” is how you never get good.