June Game Thread

[lou]

They aren’t depreciating? Of course they are? They went from solid set up type guys with an extra year of control than they have now to one guy who is probably out for the season and another guy who is only in the big leagues still because he is out of options. That’s the definition of depreciating. Maybin got you Bryson brigman, those guys could have gotten you at least two more hitting prospects between the two of them combined. No one is saying they are world beaters, but on a team that has no shot of contending anytime soon failing to trade your relievers at the height of their value is complete mismanagement. I’m of the opinion on a non contending team you deal all relievers with value unless they are going to be around in 2-3 years and are dominant.

Eveld is a future set up man type guy, and Ziegler has much less value than Conley and ateckenrider at the time. I think your opinion on their value at the height of their value last year is complete revisionist history. We were literally talking about guys like McKenzie, Nolan Jones, Mejia. That’s a complete over ask, but to say they didn’t have value last year that could have at least gotten you 2-3 decent hitting prospects is just complete revisionist history. T


There is no upside to keeping them in our situation last year. The best case scenario was they keep pitching like they did and you eventually cash in on their value, which would just keep getting lower with less and less team control remaining. Under no circumstances was Conley ever going to be around when this team ideally turns it around, so there is 0 excuse not to trade him. It’s not even like an average hitter or starting pitcher where you can make the argument that they are somewhat hard to find. Bullpen arms are by far the easiest thing to find in the sport, not trading two guys with actual value(not top prospect value like they were foolishly asking for) who have almost no shot of being around here when we turn it around is just another example of us neglecting to sell high on an easily replaceable asset

It. doesn't. fucking. matter. They. are. middle. relievers. And. Wouldn't. Have. Gotten. Someone. Good. In. A. Buyer's. Market. with. plenty. of. other. options.

It's easy to say, oh yea trade relievers for guys. But you aren't appreciating the market. Chances are, the Marlins asked for a lot knowing they have to come down, and what was left was crap deals where it wasn't even worth it to trade them. What aren't you getting here? Why would you trade guys who have some MLB track record for non-prospects? These guys have years of control.

If you want to talk complete mismanagement, there is only "1" thing this front office has done that is a complete and utter failure. Moving Yelich for an undervalued package is complete mismanagement and should be the direction of all hatred. Not getting a new #27 and 34 overall prospect for Conley and Steckenrider means nothing. It would have been nice if they got some E. Cabrera type arms for them that blossomed, but it was never going to happen. Everyone in baseball has gotten smarter. All the Ned Colletti types are gone. Stop thinking there are Ned Collettis running other teams just waiting to give good prospects up for middle of the pack relievers.

[fish16]

It. doesn't. fucking. matter. They. are. middle. relievers. And. Wouldn't. Have. Gotten. Someone. Good. In. A. Buyer's. Market. with. plenty. of. other. options.

It's easy to say, oh yea trade relievers for guys. But you aren't appreciating the market. Chances are, the Marlins asked for a lot knowing they have to come down, and what was left was crap deals where it wasn't even worth it to trade them. What aren't you getting here? Why would you trade guys who have some MLB track record for non-prospects? These guys have years of control.

If you want to talk complete mismanagement, there is only "1" thing this front office has done that is a complete and utter failure. Moving Yelich for an undervalued package is complete mismanagement and should be the direction of all hatred. Not getting a new #27 and 34 overall prospect for Conley and Steckenrider means nothing. It would have been nice if they got some E. Cabrera type arms for them that blossomed, but it was never going to happen. Everyone in baseball has gotten smarter. All the Ned Colletti types are gone. Stop thinking there are Ned Collettis running other teams just waiting to give good prospects up for middle of the pack relievers.

It does matter, not in the sense that the rebuild is doomed because of not trading them. obviously this isnt the end of the world, but continued mismanagement of assets and not dealing them at the height of their value repeatedly will catch up to them eventually. They did it consistently under Loria. How many different guys did we wait to deal until they had significantly less value a year later? Cishek, Barraclough, Ramos off the top of my head. Those moves individually dont kill you, but over time you are leaving a ton of potential value on the table when you consistently refuse to sell high on easily replaceable assets.

And they absolutely could have gotten someone good. The rangers traded Keone Kela, a fairly decent reliever who also had team control left, and they got the guy who is now their number 10 prospect on mlb.com. A fairly decent former 5th round pick named taylor hearne.

Adam Warren was an average middle reliever who was a free agent at the end of the year. That got the yankees 1.25 million in IFA cash.

Ryan pressly, who up until the astros traded for him was the definition of a mediocre player with a total of 1.8 WAR over the course of his first 5 big league years got the Twins Gilberto Celestino and Jorge Alcala, who now according to MLB.com are the twins 15th and 18th best prospects coming into this year.

The cardinals traded something named Sam tuivailala, he of the career 3.55 ERA and 1.4 WHIP who is a reliever only got the Cardinals a guy who ranked 28th coming into the year in their top 30.

Zach britton was a former great closer, but at the trade deadline last year he was a good but not great reliever who is just removed from an achilles injury and was a free agent at the end of the year, that got the orioles Dillon Tate, Cody Caroll, and Josh Rogers. Tate is now 17th and Caroll 20th according to mlb.com.

Jeurys Familia, coming off a bad year in 2017 and was similar to both Conley and Steck in numbers last year AND was a free agent at the end of the year got the mets Will Toffey (now their number 15 prospect), Bobby Wall, AND another $1 million in IFA cash.


So to say that Conley and Steck werent getting you more than a #27 and #34 prospect is just ignorance. You deal non dominant relievers when you have no shot at contending for at least 2 years when they are at the height of their value. Full stop. You dont keep above average relievers at the height of their value when you have no shot at contending any time soon, especially given how easy it is to find relievers for cheap in the offseason. Most of the prospects dont turn out to be much in the long run, but sometimes you trade Josh Fields to the dodgers and get lucky and find someone named Yordan Alvarez and lock down a dominant power hitting 1b/corner outfielder for 6 years of team control for a piece you can find anywhere. So you're just flat out wrong about their lack of value at this time last year. Good teams also scout the hell out of the lower minors and extract long term value out of present day average pieces who are easily replaceable. Kind of like trading Cosart and doing a hell of a job scouting the minor leagues and getting a guy who becomes a top 100 guy like the astros did to us with Martes.

[lou]

It does matter, not in the sense that the rebuild is doomed because of not trading them. obviously this isnt the end of the world, but continued mismanagement of assets and not dealing them at the height of their value repeatedly will catch up to them eventually. They did it consistently under Loria. How many different guys did we wait to deal until they had significantly less value a year later? Cishek, Barraclough, Ramos off the top of my head. Those moves individually dont kill you, but over time you are leaving a ton of potential value on the table when you consistently refuse to sell high on easily replaceable assets.

And they absolutely could have gotten someone good. The rangers traded Keone Kela, a fairly decent reliever who also had team control left, and they got the guy who is now their number 10 prospect on mlb.com. A fairly decent former 5th round pick named taylor hearne.

Adam Warren was an average middle reliever who was a free agent at the end of the year. That got the yankees 1.25 million in IFA cash.

Ryan pressly, who up until the astros traded for him was the definition of a mediocre player with a total of 1.8 WAR over the course of his first 5 big league years got the Twins Gilberto Celestino and Jorge Alcala, who now according to MLB.com are the twins 15th and 18th best prospects coming into this year.

The cardinals traded something named Sam tuivailala, he of the career 3.55 ERA and 1.4 WHIP who is a reliever only got the Cardinals a guy who ranked 28th coming into the year in their top 30.

Zach britton was a former great closer, but at the trade deadline last year he was a good but not great reliever who is just removed from an achilles injury and was a free agent at the end of the year, that got the orioles Dillon Tate, Cody Caroll, and Josh Rogers. Tate is now 17th and Caroll 20th according to mlb.com.

Jeurys Familia, coming off a bad year in 2017 and was similar to both Conley and Steck in numbers last year AND was a free agent at the end of the year got the mets Will Toffey (now their number 15 prospect), Bobby Wall, AND another $1 million in IFA cash.


So to say that Conley and Steck werent getting you more than a #27 and #34 prospect is just ignorance. You deal non dominant relievers when you have no shot at contending for at least 2 years when they are at the height of their value. Full stop. You dont keep above average relievers at the height of their value when you have no shot at contending any time soon, especially given how easy it is to find relievers for cheap in the offseason. Most of the prospects dont turn out to be much in the long run, but sometimes you trade Josh Fields to the dodgers and get someone named Yordan Alvarez and lock down a dominant power hitting 1b/corner outfielder for 6 years of team control for a piece you can find anywhere. So you're just flat out wrong about their lack of value at this time last year.

If you want to die on the hill of gross mismanagement with middling relievers, so be it. Comparing Conley and Steckenrider to Ryan Pressly, Zach Britton, and Jeurys Familia is teetering into Lee Stone's fascination with Ben Meyer. Full stop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCU36pkH7c

[Namaste]

I like how lou pointed out in two different posts that the grossest of all mismanagement was Yelich and fish16 acknowledged it zero times.

[fish16]

If you want to die on the hill of gross mismanagement with middling relievers, so be it. Comparing Conley and Steckenrider to Ryan Pressly, Zach Britton, and Jeurys Familia is teetering into Lee Stone's fascination with Ben Meyer. Full stop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCU36pkH7c

Go look at ryan presly's numbers prior to being traded. Go look at Zach britton's numbers last year prior to being traded- just 15 innings off an achilles injury, 3.45 ERA, 1.34 WHIP, and a 13/10 K/BB ratio. And he was a free agent at the end of the year. Jeurys familia hadnt been the pitcher he was from 2016 for a full year and a half. And he too was a free agent at the end of the year.

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I like how lou pointed out in two different posts that the grossest of all mismanagement was Yelich and fish16 acknowledged it zero times.

Probably because those 2 being mismanagement arent mutually exclusive. Believe it or not, you can mismanage an asset multiple times

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And this isnt limited to Conley and Steckenrider, they fucked up the barraclough trade too and were lucky that the Mesa's were still available at a point when most IFA's are already signed so that getting IFA cash for him in the end wasnt a complete disaster.

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heres a nice article from around the deadline of Conley's dramatic improvements at that point when coming out of the bullpen compared to as a starter. He had gained 5 MPH on his fastball and had a mid 3 ERA with a sub 1 WHIP and had multiple years of team control left.
http://dodgersdigest.com/2018/07/28/2018-dodgers-trade-deadline-targets-lhp-adam-conley-marlins/

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For what it’s worth, the Dodgers have one of the best farm systems in baseball, with MLB.com ranking them tenth out of 30 MLB teams. While it seems unlikely that they’d part with top prospects Alex Verdugo or Keibert Ruiz in a trade for one of the aforementioned Marlins arms, it’s worth noting that elite prospects have changed hands in recent years when a top-flight reliever becomes available, and the sheer amount of team control left on the contracts of Barraclough, Steckenrider and Conley could prove an enticing reason to consider all possible angles.

Heres another nice little excerpt from a mlbtraderumors piece that gives you an idea of the value of those guys around the league at the time. They were never getting a top guy like Verdugo or Ruiz, but it is complete revisionist history to say these guys had no value last year and would barely get you a top 30 guy.

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Cooper! Yamamoto also has looked good.

[Namaste]

Great AB by Granderson right before the Cooper grand slam

[fish16]

nice to finally see cooper just healthy and playing every day. Our lineup still sucks but even being terrible is a huge improvement over what we were doing the first month.

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cooper already has a triple and a homer???

[Nick]

Well Prado's done for the year.

[fish16]

Well Prado's done for the year.

didnt want to see him injured, but im more than fine with his marlins career being over. was ok with that before the year even started. Wonder who they bring up now though, and i hate to say it but it feels like yadiel rivera given his "versatility" (i.e. he can play multiple positions and be useless at all of them) and the fact that there isnt a full time starting gig for Isan currently.

Btw, what ever happened to peter o'brien?

[lou]

Go look at ryan presly's numbers prior to being traded. Go look at Zach britton's numbers last year prior to being traded- just 15 innings off an achilles injury, 3.45 ERA, 1.34 WHIP, and a 13/10 K/BB ratio. And he was a free agent at the end of the year. Jeurys familia hadnt been the pitcher he was from 2016 for a full year and a half. And he too was a free agent at the end of the year.

heres a nice article from around the deadline of Conley's dramatic improvements at that point when coming out of the bullpen compared to as a starter. He had gained 5 MPH on his fastball and had a mid 3 ERA with a sub 1 WHIP and had multiple years of team control left.
http://dodgersdigest.com/2018/07/28/...onley-marlins/

Heres another nice little excerpt from a mlbtraderumors piece that gives you an idea of the value of those guys around the league at the time. They were never getting a top guy like Verdugo or Ruiz, but it is complete revisionist history to say these guys had no value last year and would barely get you a top 30 guy.

You're talking about some of the best relievers in baseball with established track records (and recent struggles/injuries don't change that, clubs will trust these guys), and an analytics darling in Pressly. Obviously the Astros aren't better than everyone in identifying pitching these days.

If the Marlins guys were worth something solid, it would have happened. You just need to accept that, move on, and not over-value your own guys. I appreciate your fandom for the franchise, but not trading those guys is not an indication of incompetence.

Trading Yelich w/ 5 years of relatively cheap control, is incompetence. And that's pre-2018 Yelich. The rest of the moves have been pretty OK but that one is a disaster absent some real breakouts, and this is the thing to take pause as to what were they thinking? I still don't know.

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I like how lou pointed out in two different posts that the grossest of all mismanagement was Yelich and fish16 acknowledged it zero times.

I didn't see this until the last post, ha.

But yes, THIS is the one to get IRRATIONALLY CAPS LOCK MAD AT

[Nick]

Yamamoto is pretty much as advertised. His stuff is not super impressive, but knows how to pitch and attacks the strike zone.

[fish16]

You're talking about some of the best relievers in baseball with established track records (and recent struggles/injuries don't change that, clubs will trust these guys), and an analytics darling in Pressly. Obviously the Astros aren't better than everyone in identifying pitching these days.

If the Marlins guys were worth something solid, it would have happened. You just need to accept that, move on, and not over-value your own guys. I appreciate your fandom for the franchise, but not trading those guys is not an indication of incompetence.

Trading Yelich w/ 5 years of relatively cheap control, is incompetence. And that's pre-2018 Yelich. The rest of the moves have been pretty OK but that one is a disaster absent some real breakouts, and this is the thing to take pause as to what were they thinking? I still don't know.

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I didn't see this until the last post, ha.

But yes, THIS is the one to get IRRATIONALLY CAPS LOCK MAD AT

You can get mad at both. They have better track records but they were all also free agents after the year, not having all that special of seasons, and Ryan presly was a complete nobody that shouldnt have gotten much even if the astros viewed him higher than the rest of the league. And you also just completely ignored the other trades i mentioned where worse relievers with less years of team control still got decent returns. Im just saying its complete revisionist history to suggest these guys had no value. And it's also maddening that we continue to refuse to sell high on relievers (and a lot of other positions for that matter, but specifically relievers) when they are the easiest thing to find and when you have no intention of competing for 2+ years.

You find the best offer on the market and you deal them for the best group of hitting prospects you could get, which by the deals done last year for worse or about the same type pitchers with less years of team control, suggest you could get a few decent hitting prospects that will slot somewhere in the teens in your system.

Also, this has nothing to do with anything, but the most joe frisaro thing is that during these talks last year when it was rumored we were looking to get Triston Mckenzie for I think either Barralough or Conley, he tweeted he wouldnt do it. Because of course he did.

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Yamamoto is pretty much as advertised. His stuff is not super impressive, but knows how to pitch and attacks the strike zone.

he does. He seems like the type of guy who is always going to get discounted because he doesnt have elite stuff, but its been clear from his minor league numbers that he flat out knows how to pitch. I wish he would teach that to a few of our other pitchers.

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holy shit could this be the night?

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also how is it possible that we have never had a guy hit for the cycle? That seems impossible. you'd think we'd luck into one at some point, especially given how spacious pro player was and how big marlins park is/was.

[Nick]

Yamamoto's already provided more value than Brinson's year and a half with the club.

[fish16]

Our pitching depth is impressive and very encouraging for our future

[Nick]

Yamamoto can do no wrong.