Season Super Game Thread

[emkayseven]

Fredi sending Dietrich was lolworthy and I didn’t get Todd and Paul arguing that there was no lane. Deetz was clearly pissed that he got thrown out for no good reason.

[fish16]

The plan is to lose games, so what is fucked up about not getting them.

losing games isnt the plan, it is a consequence of the plan of trying to develop talent that will be ready in a year or 2, and by not signing stop gap veterans we've had various prospect who should be playing every day or pitching every 5th day as prospects in the minors up here in minor roles despite the fact that winning this year isnt the priority. Merandy gonzalez shouldnt be in our bullpen at 22 years old with just 10 innings of AA experience, Braxton lee shouldnt have been up here coming off the bench even for a few weeks when it was obvious he wasnt ready, Richards did decent but he too should have been sent to AAA, and Brinson being up here and not just sending him down for a month to work on plate discipline and getting an extra year of team control is beyond stupid.

Losing games isnt a plan, its the consequence of the plan focusing on developing talent for future years, and not signing an extra veteran bullpen/rotation arm or 2 and another OF as stop gaps was not smart.

[Lee Stone]

Schiraldi is 24 years old (turns 25 in 2 months) in A+ who walks 6+ guys an inning for his professional career. Third year in A+.

You also keep Steckenrider with 5+ years of control and make a decision on him in 2 years if he can reasonably be replaced. His peripherals suggest one of the top RP in baseball and that's a longterm need. He's a HUGE win out of an 8th round 2012 pick.

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I get it, but he is really terrible and at some point it's important to give innings to guys who will be around. I think he gets to the Super2 deadline at most when they can start calling up guys easier.

On Schiraldi: Sorry, didn't realize that his marginal success in prior years renders his outstanding current performance as meaningless. Of note: Steckenrider's ascent began at the same age that Schiraldi is now.

[Maddawg]

losing games isnt the plan, it is a consequence of the plan of trying to develop talent that will be ready in a year or 2, and by not signing stop gap veterans we've had various prospect who should be playing every day or pitching every 5th day as prospects in the minors up here in minor roles despite the fact that winning this year isnt the priority. Merandy gonzalez shouldnt be in our bullpen at 22 years old with just 10 innings of AA experience, Braxton lee shouldnt have been up here coming off the bench even for a few weeks when it was obvious he wasnt ready, Richards did decent but he too should have been sent to AAA, and Brinson being up here and not just sending him down for a month to work on plate discipline and getting an extra year of team control is beyond stupid.

Losing games isnt a plan, its the consequence of the plan focusing on developing talent for future years, and not signing an extra veteran bullpen/rotation arm or 2 and another OF as stop gaps was not smart.

Hahaha the plan isn't to lose games but it's to lose games for a reason LOL. Dude just to be contrary you make a post that contridicts yourself like 3 times. What are they teaching you at that school ?

Dude the plan is to lose games - for a reason or not - it's to LOSE games - be as cheap as they can (why waste money now) and get as high as you can in the draft to grab a potential star for 2020 or 2021.

We all know the value in this, it's the way they are going about the rebuild that leaves me wondering if they are capable of doing it. They are going to be relying on the draft now that most of the tradable assests are gone. Getting busts like Brinson back is a HUGE setback. He was the centerpiece of the Yelich trade, a trade that looks worse and worse. He was cheap and controlable and yet you let him go for a guy that has been a bust on 2 previous teams and now you take him......you just traded Yelich for nothing.

[Namaste]

losing games isnt the plan, it is a consequence of the plan of trying to develop talent that will be ready in a year or 2, and by not signing stop gap veterans we've had various prospect who should be playing every day or pitching every 5th day as prospects in the minors up here in minor roles despite the fact that winning this year isnt the priority. Merandy gonzalez shouldnt be in our bullpen at 22 years old with just 10 innings of AA experience, Braxton lee shouldnt have been up here coming off the bench even for a few weeks when it was obvious he wasnt ready, Richards did decent but he too should have been sent to AAA, and Brinson being up here and not just sending him down for a month to work on plate discipline and getting an extra year of team control is beyond stupid.

Losing games isnt a plan, its the consequence of the plan focusing on developing talent for future years, and not signing an extra veteran bullpen/rotation arm or 2 and another OF as stop gaps was not smart.

Based on your post, it sounds like there is no plan or the plan is not a good one.

[lou]

On Schiraldi: Sorry, didn't realize that his marginal success in prior years renders his outstanding current performance as meaningless. Of note: Steckenrider's ascent began at the same age that Schiraldi is now.

You're really bad at this. Past performance is a strong indicator of future performance. He's old for his level of competition. Also, it's notable the largest jump in competition between any level of baseball is A+ to AA. That is larger then AA to MLB or rookie ball to A+. He's not in AA yet. You're dealing with a sample size bias here of 13 innings or whatever. Minor league stats don't transfer to the MLB level. Never had the same stats as Steckenrider re: control. He's a dude who throws hard and has no idea where it's going. Every system has these guys. Throwing these nobody prospect names out like Galloway and Schiraldi and implying the Marlins can sell legitimate MLB players because of that depth is nothing more then a facepalm moment. Literally not a top 45 system prospect on Fangraphs, and once you get past 8-9 on those lists you're into fringe MLB players like Braxton Lee. Come on man, you're not shopping Steckenrider because of "Schiraldi."

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Hahaha the plan isn't to lose games but it's to lose games for a reason LOL. Dude just to be contrary you make a post that contridicts yourself like 3 times. What are they teaching you at that school ?

Dude the plan is to lose games - for a reason or not - it's to LOSE games - be as cheap as they can (why waste money now) and get as high as you can in the draft to grab a potential star for 2020 or 2021.

We all know the value in this, it's the way they are going about the rebuild that leaves me wondering if they are capable of doing it. They are going to be relying on the draft now that most of the tradable assests are gone. Getting busts like Brinson back is a HUGE setback. He was the centerpiece of the Yelich trade, a trade that looks worse and worse. He was cheap and controlable and yet you let him go for a guy that has been a bust on 2 previous teams and now you take him......you just traded Yelich for nothing.

The plan is definitely not to lose games and save money. If that was the plan, Bour, Dietrich, Castro, Prado, Straily, Ziegler, and especially Realmuto would be gone (nor signing Maybin). That reflects a significant portion of the team's payroll and collectively probably plays out at 10+ WAR. They certainly want to try and avoid losing 100 games (which is the real over/under, not 35 wins but you know that and just like poking this dude).

Also it's insanely premature to call Brinson a bust, and completely ignore Harrison and Diaz. The Yelich trade was my least favorite too, but it's impossible to view that one until 2 years from now. We'll see, but yes if all 3 of them bust, that is a major setback as you could have just kept Yelich which would not have been a bad idea.

As I and others said before the season, this is a wait and see until say August 15th. The last assets will be traded by then, we'll see the draft, the initial splash into maybe IFA, a year of progress from the "kids," etc. Maybe it sucks? Maybe it doesn't? Is Caleb Smith turning into a free 3rd SP right? Is Jarlin turning into a #4? Is Brian Anderson a longterm 3B/LF? Is Tayron Guerrero a legitimate backend RP?

The PR is atrocious, but I can't say on a baseball level this is a sinking ship. I can acknowledge that keeping Hill, etc., may not inspire confidence, but we just don't know how he operates without Loria's meddling (see fish16's podcast post which is interesting). It will be clearly obvious in about 3 months as a lot is going to happen. Just saying, maybe lob the bombs when there is information to back it and not hysterical comments.

[fish16]

Hahaha the plan isn't to lose games but it's to lose games for a reason LOL. Dude just to be contrary you make a post that contridicts yourself like 3 times. What are they teaching you at that school ?

Dude the plan is to lose games - for a reason or not - it's to LOSE games - be as cheap as they can (why waste money now) and get as high as you can in the draft to grab a potential star for 2020 or 2021.

We all know the value in this, it's the way they are going about the rebuild that leaves me wondering if they are capable of doing it. They are going to be relying on the draft now that most of the tradable assests are gone. Getting busts like Brinson back is a HUGE setback. He was the centerpiece of the Yelich trade, a trade that looks worse and worse. He was cheap and controlable and yet you let him go for a guy that has been a bust on 2 previous teams and now you take him......you just traded Yelich for nothing.

No, the plan is to acquire and develop talent that will be ready come 2020, and losing games in 2018 is a consequence to that plan. They're obviously not upset with losing games now as thats not the ultimate goal, but they could have lost games this year and not had to call some of these prospects up to fill minor roles when they could have been continuing their development for the future. It's not wasting money as there are plenty of guys they could have had for the minimum or minor league deals that would have cost the same as bringing up these prospects. A guy like merandy gonzalez should be pitching every 5th day in the minors, not being called up here to pitch 2-3 innings a week when he has just 10 innings above A ball for his career.

and the brinson stuff is just a laughable now as it was a month ago. not to mention they got 2 other top 100 prospects in that deal, and yelich apparently was a jackass in the clubhouse and not the best teammate reportedly (not that i blame him given the shit show from the previous regime).

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Based on your post, it sounds like there is no plan or the plan is not a good one.

no, its just that some of their moves are not optimizing the way the plan could be being run. They've still done a really good job in trying to rebuild the system and develop cost controlled talent for the next few years, but they could be doing a better job by signing a few more replacement level veterans for the bullpen/rotation/bench roles rather than stunting the development of a few of their prospects specifically like gonzalez who has 10 innings above A ball for his career and is one of the youngest guys in the majors and should be pitching every 5th day as a starter rather than throwing 2-4 innings a week in blowouts at the major league level.

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You're really bad at this. Past performance is a strong indicator of future performance. He's old for his level of competition. Also, it's notable the largest jump in competition between any level of baseball is A+ to AA. That is larger then AA to MLB or rookie ball to A+. He's not in AA yet. You're dealing with a sample size bias here of 13 innings or whatever. Minor league stats don't transfer to the MLB level. Never had the same stats as Steckenrider re: control. He's a dude who throws hard and has no idea where it's going. Every system has these guys. Throwing these nobody prospect names out like Galloway and Schiraldi and implying the Marlins can sell legitimate MLB players because of that depth is nothing more then a facepalm moment. Literally not a top 45 system prospect on Fangraphs, and once you get past 8-9 on those lists you're into fringe MLB players like Braxton Lee. Come on man, you're not shopping Steckenrider because of "Schiraldi."

- - - - - - - - - -



The plan is definitely not to lose games and save money. If that was the plan, Bour, Dietrich, Castro, Prado, Straily, Ziegler, and especially Realmuto would be gone (nor signing Maybin). That reflects a significant portion of the team's payroll and collectively probably plays out at 10+ WAR. They certainly want to try and avoid losing 100 games (which is the real over/under, not 35 wins but you know that and just like poking this dude).

Also it's insanely premature to call Brinson a bust, and completely ignore Harrison and Diaz. The Yelich trade was my least favorite too, but it's impossible to view that one until 2 years from now. We'll see, but yes if all 3 of them bust, that is a major setback as you could have just kept Yelich which would not have been a bad idea.

As I and others said before the season, this is a wait and see until say August 15th. The last assets will be traded by then, we'll see the draft, the initial splash into maybe IFA, a year of progress from the "kids," etc. Maybe it sucks? Maybe it doesn't? Is Caleb Smith turning into a free 3rd SP right? Is Jarlin turning into a #4? Is Brian Anderson a longterm 3B/LF? Is Tayron Guerrero a legitimate backend RP?

The PR is atrocious, but I can't say on a baseball level this is a sinking ship. I can acknowledge that keeping Hill, etc., may not inspire confidence, but we just don't know how he operates without Loria's meddling (see fish16's podcast post which is interesting). It will be clearly obvious in about 3 months as a lot is going to happen. Just saying, maybe lob the bombs when there is information to back it and not hysterical comments.

bingo. losing games isnt the plan, it is a consequence of the longer term and bigger picture plan.

[Lee Stone]

You're really bad at this. Past performance is a strong indicator of future performance. He's old for his level of competition. Also, it's notable the largest jump in competition between any level of baseball is A+ to AA. That is larger then AA to MLB or rookie ball to A+. He's not in AA yet. You're dealing with a sample size bias here of 13 innings or whatever. Minor league stats don't transfer to the MLB level. Never had the same stats as Steckenrider re: control. He's a dude who throws hard and has no idea where it's going. Every system has these guys. Throwing these nobody prospect names out like Galloway and Schiraldi and implying the Marlins can sell legitimate MLB players because of that depth is nothing more then a facepalm moment. Literally not a top 45 system prospect on Fangraphs, and once you get past 8-9 on those lists you're into fringe MLB players like Braxton Lee. Come on man, you're not shopping Steckenrider because of "Schiraldi."

Schiraldi, Hovis, Keller, Junkel, Alcantara, Guzman - they're all cheap relief replacements in the immediate future. On this mystical leap from High-A to AA: I'm trying to think of any promising arms in the Marlin system that DIDN'T make an easy transition. Jeff Brigham and Pablo Lopez and Jose Quijada and Jeff Kinley all seem to be doing extremely well. Trevor Richards last year. Ben Meyer from Jupiter to New Orleans. Steckenrider is trade bait because most teams place great significance on ML success. The Marlins need a whole new OF and trades are the quickest way to get there.

[fish16]

speaking of brinson, they either need to stop hitting him 8th or just send him to the minors already. he should be sent to the minors for contractual reasons anyways, but hitting him 8th at the ML level is the worst of both worlds.

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Schiraldi, Hovis, Keller, Junkel, Alcantara, Guzman - they're all cheap relief replacements in the immediate future. On this mystical leap from High-A to AA: I'm trying to think of any promising arms in the Marlin system that DIDN'T make an easy transition. Jeff Brigham and Pablo Lopez and Jose Quijada and Jeff Kinley all seem to be doing extremely well. Trevor Richards last year. Ben Meyer from Jupiter to New Orleans. Steckenrider is trade bait because most teams place great significance on ML success. The Marlins need a whole new OF and trades are the quickest way to get there.

the marlins dont need a whole new OF. its actually the position that we have the most depth at in the system. Harrison, Brinson, Sierra, Dean, Dietrich till he's traded, Anderson showing he can play out there, Miller, and then you have younger guys who havent played yet this year who have a lot of talent in Hernandez and Cespedes on top of Thomas Jones possibly fulfilling his potential.

[lou]

Schiraldi, Hovis, Keller, Junkel, Alcantara, Guzman - they're all cheap relief replacements in the immediate future. On this mystical leap from High-A to AA: I'm trying to think of any promising arms in the Marlin system that DIDN'T make an easy transition. Jeff Brigham and Pablo Lopez and Jose Quijada and Jeff Kinley all seem to be doing extremely well. Steckenrider is trade bait because most teams place great significance on ML success. The Marlins need a whole new OF and trades are the quickest way to get there.

Objectively incorrect to argue against A+-AA being the biggest competition jump in baseball. I would say most of those guys are 2 years away, if they make it, so not immediate replacements. You're probably looking at 1 guy from those first 4 making it to the bigs, statistically speaking unless the Marlins are the best at identifying fringe relievers in MLB.

They control Steckenrider for 5 years (which is in their contending window) so why trade a guy who unquestionably will be one of your best 8 relievers during this period? Right? Do you have confidence the Marlins have 8 RP better then them?

Your Marlins OF comment shows how little you understand of the system also. The Marlins best two position prospects (Brinson, Harrison) are OF, then two guys of the next 4 depending on who you ask, may end up in the OF (Sierra obviously, Anderson could be a corner OF if he is pushed off 3B), THEN out of the next 5 best prospects, at least two more are OF (B. Miller, and B. Lee), AND FURTHERMORE, once you start digging deeper into fringe top 30 guys who have a skill that could develop, you get a group of interesting flyers like Norwood, B. Hernandez, T. Jones, I. Soto, etc. which is something the Marlins don't really have at other positions. This is ignoring signing outfielders is the easiest thing to do in free agency.

OF is the -last- need on the team longterm. Literally the last. They have the numbers to develop starters, both on upside and role players.

[fish16]

ya, in terms of things to try to acquire when dealing these remaining pieces (Castro, Bour, Straily, JT if he doesnt sign, Barraclough), outside of just getting the best pure talent you can, we should be looking for 1b, C, and then high upside SP's. We actually have a lot of guys in the system now with at the very least mid-back of the rotation talent in Alcantara, Gallen, Richards, Peters, Lopez, Neidert, Guzman, Garrett, Rogers if he ever pitches, Smith, Urena, Merandy, but unless one of them takes another step (which is certainly possible) we likely still need that number 1 ace type pitcher. It might come in the draft, but if im dealing those guys, getting pure talent aside, im looking for high upside SP guys. Its a good problem to have as we can make some of them relievers if it ever gets to that or we can deal from a surplus of pitching talent to fill other needs, but we still need that ace talent if we cant land it in the draft in the next year or 2.

[lou]

Lee - https://www.fangraphs.com/minorleade...rs=0&sort=12,d

In 2012, did you like:

Bobby Bramhall
James Leverton
Evan Reed
Arquimedes Caminero

In 2013 - https://www.fangraphs.com/minorleade...rs=0&sort=12,d

Jay Jackson
Bryan Evans
Scott McGough
Colin Cargill
Michael Brady

This is not depth, this is the ordinary course of the minor leagues. I spared you from looking at Jupiter (pitcher's environment) also.

Yes if you look at those years, some guys who were not top prospects (like Heaney) broke through - DeScalfani, Dayton, Dyson - but that is more rare and throwing a few good innings isn't projecting future depth. Baseball is hard. Really hard.

Steckenrider is AWESOME. He is the best case scenario and someone you keep and build around as you control him for 5 years, not hope all these names of guys never on a prospect list who get some outs because they are literally 4 years older then someone can replace him. It is extremely unlikely any of them can.

Barraclough you can trade though, less years of control. The years matter.

- - - - - - - - - -

ya, in terms of things to try to acquire when dealing these remaining pieces (Castro, Bour, Straily, JT if he doesnt sign, Barraclough), outside of just getting the best pure talent you can, we should be looking for 1b, C, and then high upside SP's. We actually have a lot of guys in the system now with at the very least mid-back of the rotation talent in Alcantara, Gallen, Richards, Peters, Lopez, Neidert, Guzman, Garrett, Rogers if he ever pitches, Smith, Urena, Merandy, but unless one of them takes another step (which is certainly possible) we likely still need that number 1 ace type pitcher. It might come in the draft, but if im dealing those guys, getting pure talent aside, im looking for high upside SP guys. Its a good problem to have as we can make some of them relievers if it ever gets to that or we can deal from a surplus of pitching talent to fill other needs, but we still need that ace talent if we cant land it in the draft in the next year or 2.

I would put the team needs:

1. Sign Realmuto for 5+
2. Acquire top end SP
3. Acquire a longterm catcher if # 1 fails
4. Acquire more top end SP
5. Acquire as many SS as you can
6. Acquire anyone who can hit the shit out of a baseball anywhere

[Lee Stone]

Objectively incorrect to argue against A+-AA being the biggest competition jump in baseball. I would say most of those guys are 2 years away, if they make it, so not immediate replacements. You're probably looking at 1 guy from those first 4 making it to the bigs, statistically speaking unless the Marlins are the best at identifying fringe relievers in MLB.

They control Steckenrider for 5 years (which is in their contending window) so why trade a guy who unquestionably will be one of your best 8 relievers during this period? Right? Do you have confidence the Marlins have 8 RP better then them?

Your Marlins OF comment shows how little you understand of the system also. The Marlins best two position prospects (Brinson, Harrison) are OF, then two guys of the next 4 depending on who you ask, may end up in the OF (Sierra obviously, Anderson could be a corner OF if he is pushed off 3B), THEN out of the next 5 best prospects, at least two more are OF (B. Miller, and B. Lee), AND FURTHERMORE, once you start digging deeper into fringe top 30 guys who have a skill that could develop, you get a group of interesting flyers like Norwood, B. Hernandez, T. Jones, I. Soto, etc. which is something the Marlins don't really have at other positions. This is ignoring signing outfielders is the easiest thing to do in free agency.

OF is the -last- need on the team longterm. Literally the last. They have the numbers to develop starters, both on upside and role players.

You are dreamin' on the potential of the OF prospects. So was I until I watched them play. Pitching is another story. Up for debate: Do the Marlins have the best rotation in all of AAA?

[fish16]

Lee - https://www.fangraphs.com/minorleade...rs=0&sort=12,d

In 2012, did you like:

Bobby Bramhall
James Leverton
Evan Reed
Arquimedes Caminero

In 2013 - https://www.fangraphs.com/minorleade...rs=0&sort=12,d

Jay Jackson
Bryan Evans
Scott McGough
Colin Cargill
Michael Brady

This is not depth, this is the ordinary course of the minor leagues. I spared you from looking at Jupiter (pitcher's environment) also.

Yes if you look at those years, some guys who were not top prospects (like Heaney) broke through - DeScalfani, Dayton, Dyson - but that is more rare and throwing a few good innings isn't projecting future depth. Baseball is hard. Really hard.

Steckenrider is AWESOME. He is the best case scenario and someone you keep and build around as you control him for 5 years, not hope all these names of guys never on a prospect list who get some outs because they are literally 4 years older then someone can replace him. It is extremely unlikely any of them can.

Barraclough you can trade though, less years of control. The years matter.

- - - - - - - - - -



I would put the team needs:

1. Sign Realmuto for 5+
2. Acquire top end SP
3. Acquire a longterm catcher if # 1 fails
4. Acquire more top end SP
5. Acquire as many SS as you can
6. Acquire anyone who can hit the shit out of a baseball anywhere

i wish JT would just sign long term and make this easy. a catcher like him is so fucking hard to find but we obviously cant make him sign here and we also cant risk waiting too long and losing value in a possible trade. I wish they'd overpay him to sign long term and work around that.

[lou]

You are dreamin' on the potential of the OF prospects. So was I until I watched them play.

Yep, let us never forget the 80 PA in April 2018 where all hope was lost