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  • Cueto has biceps issue that is the cause of his spring, wbc , and now regular season issues. Then why the fuck are you pitching? How does anyone benefit by you being terrible through that injury? And how does no one on the staff not see it? What a fucking joke

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    • THIS discussion is premature, but fuck it I’m wound up, so let’s throw it out there. What do you do if you’re the Marlins, and this is exactly who they are this season? Like, what if they actually lose more games than last year? We all know they aren’t going to just go out and start signing the needed good players to bridge the gap between them and the good teams. So the actual logical move would be to get a new GM and once again rebuild. The problem is, you can’t do that from a PR perspective. Another rebuild and how do you expect the fans to stick with it. So the only other option is status quo. Keep lying to yourself that the guys you have will eventually get better, that you’ll start drafting good players, and minimal improvements via trade or FA will get you where you need to go. Unfortunately though, that’s the least likely way to actually ever contend.

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      • Originally posted by Maddawg View Post
        hmmmmm,maybe my prediction of 50 was too generous.....how about 49?
        If the Marlins win more than 60 games this year will you promise to never post here again?

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        • Originally posted by sports24/7 View Post
          THIS discussion is premature, but fuck it I’m wound up, so let’s throw it out there. What do you do if you’re the Marlins, and this is exactly who they are this season? Like, what if they actually lose more games than last year? We all know they aren’t going to just go out and start signing the needed good players to bridge the gap between them and the good teams. So the actual logical move would be to get a new GM and once again rebuild. The problem is, you can’t do that from a PR perspective. Another rebuild and how do you expect the fans to stick with it. So the only other option is status quo. Keep lying to yourself that the guys you have will eventually get better, that you’ll start drafting good players, and minimal improvements via trade or FA will get you where you need to go. Unfortunately though, that’s the least likely way to actually ever contend.
          Did you see the crowd last night? Fans aren't exactly sticking with it. They will justify another re-build with "well no one is showing up anyway." The window to spend money and show the fanbase that they're different and going to invest in the team and invest in winning has come and almost past at this point.

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          • Originally posted by fish16 View Post
            Cueto has biceps issue that is the cause of his spring, wbc , and now regular season issues. Then why the fuck are you pitching? How does anyone benefit by you being terrible through that injury? And how does no one on the staff not see it? What a fucking joke
            They definitely saw it. (see Lindgren call-up) They were hoping and praying they get anything out of their investment so they sent him out there. (See Avisail Garcia)

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            • Originally posted by Nick View Post

              They definitely saw it. (see Lindgren call-up) They were hoping and praying they get anything out of their investment so they sent him out there. (See Avisail Garcia)
              i think the lindgren call up was because garrett has been straight up terrible since the beginning of spring and wanting to get him right than anything about cueto. I think if they knew cueto had a hurt biceps, they would have rested him until it got right. It makes no sense, even with an investment in the guy, to continue to make him pitch through it when they saw all spring and the WBC that something was clearly wrong. I think cueto hid it for some reason, which is beyond stupid. It's just compounding a bad situation to make it even worse. It's one thing if he could pitch effectively through it and eventually it goes away, but that was never happening. he was clearly struggling with something, and now instead of just a little rest until it goes away, he's probably out a lot longer than he would have been previously. and for what? exactly 1 horrendous inning. Just stupid. That's not the marlins, that's cueto.

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              • Originally posted by fish16 View Post

                i think the lindgren call up was because garrett has been straight up terrible since the beginning of spring and wanting to get him right than anything about cueto. I think if they knew cueto had a hurt biceps, they would have rested him until it got right. It makes no sense, even with an investment in the guy, to continue to make him pitch through it when they saw all spring and the WBC that something was clearly wrong. I think cueto hid it for some reason, which is beyond stupid. It's just compounding a bad situation to make it even worse. It's one thing if he could pitch effectively through it and eventually it goes away, but that was never happening. he was clearly struggling with something, and now instead of just a little rest until it goes away, he's probably out a lot longer than he would have been previously. and for what? exactly 1 horrendous inning. Just stupid. That's not the marlins, that's cueto.
                How was he hiding it? Everyone knew he was struggling with an injury, they talked about it on the broadcast. I'm sure he said he was good to go, but somebody didn't do their job.

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                • id love to know how to look up how often in mlb history a team has lost by 10 runs while outhitting the other team. Just so marlins. im at the point where id be fine trading eury for a star level bat or 2 really impact bats. This is not sustainable. We're going to miss sandy's window because of the lack of bats. We have good complementary bats, and arraez is going to win the batting title again this year, but we need the Ozuna/Stanton type mashers in the middle of this lineup and we wont spend for it, nor can we develop it. Just bite the bullet and deal whatever minor leaguers for the bats we need.

                  With all that said, this is a horrible start, but the team is better than last year. We've played the 400 million mets and a twins team who is going to win the NL central. We have the 16th best Batting average in baseball, 21st in OBP, 19th in OPS, 17th in slugging, but we're 2nd in k's so far and have hit a ton of hard hit balls and gotten shit luck. It's a small sample and it will get better, it's just incredibly frustrating to watch a team with such obvious holes year after year just go unaddressed and have NG talk to the fans as if we should expect a big turnaround when she didnt address the biggest needs. Arraez is great, Segura will come out of it, Jazz id like to see back at the top of the lineup causing havoc, but it doesnt change the fact that they still yet again refused to get the middle of the order bat the desperately need to turn these hits into runs consistently. and dont even get me started on the failure to address the depth in the bullpen yet again. Just infuriating how many quality arms are available year after year and we consistently turn to minor league trades for average middle relievers instead of just spending like a major league team to acquire legitimately proven bullpen arms. Just inexcusable.

                  This is going to get really bad with the fans this year. Yesterday was game 4 and the PAID attendance was 8900. saying there were half that many people that actually showed up would be looking at it with rose colored glasses. And sherman deserves no one to show up because no one should pay for a product that doesnt want to invest in itself. Ive said it countless times, but the person who needed to buy the team from loria needed to have been a guy with fuck you money to invest in the team immediately without expecting a return for a few years. It needed someone with vision to understand the market and to understand that this fanbase has been abused and that no one will show up until an owner shows they give a flying fuck about winning. Instead, we got the least wealthy owner in baseball, and everyone loses. He loses money and the fans continue to justifiably refuse to show up for a product that refuses to spend money on its players. there is no path to increased revenue this way, and sherman will continue to refuse to spend because of this. No one wins this way. This is going to get really bad, really quick with the attendance this year.

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                  • Originally posted by Nick View Post

                    How was he hiding it? Everyone knew he was struggling with an injury, they talked about it on the broadcast. I'm sure he said he was good to go, but somebody didn't do their job.
                    in spring the discussion was shoulder soreness. If he comes out immediately after yesterdays game and says he has had a biceps injury all spring but that he was good to go, is that not the textbook definition of hiding it? It's not like he throws 98 anyways, he was still throwing with his usual velocity, so im not sure how you can expect the marlins to catch that if the player doesnt tell them. It's not like a stab wound where you can see a clear injury, it's up to the player to be honest with the team and himself that he's hurting the team by going out there with a clear injury that doesnt allow him to be himself. And now he has not only apparently hurt himself further, but he has hurt the team for the next month or however long he will be out instead of just telling the team he has an injury and get garrett in the rotation until he's ready to go fully healthy.

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                    • also, enough with the stallings bullshit. Fortes is a really solid catcher, and stallings is not a major league player. He is jeff mathis with worse defense and potentially a worse bat. He should play maybe 2 times a week max. He is horrendous. And he's going to start again tonight because god forbid someone else catch sandy as if sandy is only sandy because of jacob fucking stallings.

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                      • also, im guessing wendle goes on the IL today and Iglesias is added to the 40 man and brought up to play every day, or at least a majority of the time with berti.

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                        • Originally posted by fish16 View Post

                          in spring the discussion was shoulder soreness. If he comes out immediately after yesterdays game and says he has had a biceps injury all spring but that he was good to go, is that not the textbook definition of hiding it? It's not like he throws 98 anyways, he was still throwing with his usual velocity, so im not sure how you can expect the marlins to catch that if the player doesnt tell them. It's not like a stab wound where you can see a clear injury, it's up to the player to be honest with the team and himself that he's hurting the team by going out there with a clear injury that doesnt allow him to be himself. And now he has not only apparently hurt himself further, but he has hurt the team for the next month or however long he will be out instead of just telling the team he has an injury and get garrett in the rotation until he's ready to go fully healthy.
                          My thought was the shoulder soreness and bicep injury were one in the same. Why would he let them know about the shoulder soreness but not the bicep injury?

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                          • Originally posted by sports24/7 View Post
                            THIS discussion is premature, but fuck it I’m wound up, so let’s throw it out there. What do you do if you’re the Marlins, and this is exactly who they are this season? Like, what if they actually lose more games than last year? We all know they aren’t going to just go out and start signing the needed good players to bridge the gap between them and the good teams. So the actual logical move would be to get a new GM and once again rebuild. The problem is, you can’t do that from a PR perspective. Another rebuild and how do you expect the fans to stick with it. So the only other option is status quo. Keep lying to yourself that the guys you have will eventually get better, that you’ll start drafting good players, and minimal improvements via trade or FA will get you where you need to go. Unfortunately though, that’s the least likely way to actually ever contend.

                            Well first, this is a rebuild (build?) year no matter what anyone thought. I accepted this in October absent a "Correa" level event. I think most fans who understand baseball get this, including most here. So if this is a rebuilding year, what do you do? Keep rebuilding. The W/L doesn't matter as ultimately, the player progression and more importantly innings potential on the SP is what matters most. That being said, it will be real nice if they can play a "competitive 79 win" season.

                            As for what's next/keep lying to yourself, ignore all the SSS performances and BS. They'll have this next year for roughly $74m. I think we all agree this group of guys are going to all get shots.

                            Fortes, ______ (possibly Allen, Banfield, McIntosh for a CC backup)
                            Arraez, _______* (Berry looming for 1B or DH)
                            Segura
                            ______, ______ (possibly Amaya or Nasim)
                            Berti, Groshans
                            DLC/Sanchez/Burdick/Jerar (assume 1 works out as a fine 4th OF floor)
                            Jazz
                            _______, Garcia (possibly DLC, Sanchez, Burdick)

                            Sandy, Luzardo, Cabrera, Rogers, Eury (and Fulton)
                            Meyer, Bender, Chargois, Enright, Sixto (and various other RHP reliever types)
                            Puk, Garrett, Eder (and Castano, Nardi, Simpson, other RP types)

                            Dead money - Barnes, Cueto (assume opt-outs), and Stanton deferral (until 2027 to note)

                            *I am assuming Soler also has a good year and is traded/opt outs so scale this to $83m if he remains

                            Deadline trade potential - Stallings, Cooper, Yuli, Soler, Cueto, Barnes, Floro, Scott, and Okert. Say what we will about this group, but if they trade them and move 1/3rd of their collective salaries, they save $10m off 2022. Floor, they should be able to move $6-7m here even if they retain a few into the offseason. This moves 2023 overall payroll to around $82-85m post-trades (they are roughly around $92m right now and don't be gaslighted by incorrect Miami Herald/Fangraphs roster resource reports). I mention this because, maybe they carry-over that "savings" to 2024. I know - I KNOW - but just saying.

                            Also Meyer/Bender may need some MiLB time, but I would tend to think they will find CC replacements, or carry 4 lefty relievers, etc. And make that all work out. Especially because I am assuming they will hammer the trade deadline for RHP relievers. That will work itself out IMO.



                            So regardless of what happens "NOW," you're sitting on $74m and need probably 5 bats (maybe less if multiple of DLC/Sanchez/Burdick/Jerar/Amaya/Allen/Banfield/Nasim work out), and two of those need to be total STUDS - presumably a SS and then really anywhere and move players around as Arraez, Segura, Berti, and Jazz can go kind of anywhere. It might practically make the most sense to get a CF here too. If all the SP holds up, that probably turns into a trade for one of them (Alek Thomas? They have too many lefties and need pitching still). They'll have to expend most budget on a second one (Rosario?) in free agency on a top level "2nd class" FA, and then we're looking at a home-town discount for Cooper, and just giving Amaya and a CC backup catcher (or Yuli/Iglesias level FA) the job to save money. This is all easily doable under $100m, and if the trade deadline money is a contingency budget, there is a little more to play with. Are those the world beater offensive forces they need? No, but look at that pitching staff if it stays intact and if the pitching does move into top 5 and out of "solidly above average" and the batting is "slightly above average" - they will have a chance.

                            Of course, then we will be bitching about - it's a $100m payroll, sign a fucking real SP (Montas? Manaea?) for a few years and then move out another SP for another upgrade somewhere else and just scale budget to $120m, but this all goes back to Bruce. Nothing is going to probably change unless Berry and Cappe meteorically rise to become Volpe and Peraza level prospects next year, unless Bruce starts spending $120-140m. They need those last 2-3 guys they'd fit in with that extra $30-50m in budget, and that's that. This team with Correa, Rafael Montero, and Michael Taylor (and then trading Cooper/DLC/Sanchez for another RHP reliever) would be significantly better, and they could have done that easily under $129m to have the 19th highest payroll in baseball (Seattle 18th in payroll just above $129m).


                            TLDR - they will keep believing in the SP for next year even if they are terrible this year, and they aren't necessarily wrong so they'll just use resources to keep getting more bats and pray


                            I also want to point out the Marlins are spending more than Cleveland and Tampa, so should we be more or less frustrated than those fan bases, as imagine those teams spending another $30-40m on ridiculous luxury upgrades.





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                            • Originally posted by fish16 View Post
                              also, enough with the stallings bullshit. Fortes is a really solid catcher, and stallings is not a major league player. He is jeff mathis with worse defense and potentially a worse bat. He should play maybe 2 times a week max. He is horrendous. And he's going to start again tonight because god forbid someone else catch sandy as if sandy is only sandy because of jacob fucking stallings.
                              This will work itself out. It's 5 games.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Nick View Post

                                Did you see the crowd last night? Fans aren't exactly sticking with it. They will justify another re-build with "well no one is showing up anyway." The window to spend money and show the fanbase that they're different and going to invest in the team and invest in winning has come and almost past at this point.
                                Disagree here - they go out and spend $50m in free agency next year with that team I mentioned above (call it 1 major bat, 1 major SP, trading SP for 1 major young bat, and signing a "Segura" or "Cueto" on top, which could just be retaining Cooper or dare I say, a Soler extension if he is good again), and interest will be extremely high. Will it last if they are terrible again? No - but they have to start somewhere and I am pretty sure we reference Jayson Werth more than anyone else in baseball. That move has to happen. And it hasn't yet. (Add on top of this extensions for Arraez, Luzardo, Jazz, and anyone else worthy).

                                Yes that is in comparison to "now" but I truly believe people want to love the Marlins, but just can't. The Marlins either need to win sustained for years, like the Rays, at this practice, or spend money. Look at Oakland. They were SO GOOD under Beane even if they never won, and now look at them. You can't run this payroll forever and they've been doing it for literally 20 years absent 2004/2005 and the new stadium briefly.

                                I do think they are a year away because Eury needs a year, Eder is off an injury, Meyer and Bender are hurt, Berry needs at least another year, and Luzardo, Rogers, Cabrera, and Garrett all are going to max out innings under 150 this year probably. This rebuild is taking forever, but they are inching forward to that moment where everyone is on the MLB team, and it's probably mid-June 2024. Bruce should be spending to speed up the process, but it is what it is.

                                Alternatively, maybe we do want the Maddawg 49 win season so Bruce just sells the team. I'm fine with taking that if it gets someone who will spend "19th-22nd" in payroll which is quite frankly, a 150% improvement.

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