2023 Game Thread

[rmc523]

The bullpen should be better, but it’s going to have to prove that. Arraez has been fantastic, but he can get a hit every AB and it won’t matter if they can’t drive him in.

As for the SP, we’ll see. Hopefully Cabrera and Rodgers will be better, but if Sandy regresses at all from an outstanding season, that probably means the SP production goes down with Pablo gone.

Maybe this is premature, and just an emotional reaction, but it just feels like this team is once again awful, with no hope for them to get things straightened out with this ownership group and this GM.

Yeah, if only our GM could have known we needed more bats.

Bruce needs to be forced to sell to an ultra wealthy owner that is willing to massively invest and take losses to show this town they mean business and will do everything possible to win. Then people will come.

I hate starting to feel like the season is over 5 games in.

[fish16]

This will work itself out. It's 5 games.

it wont, they will continue to lie to themselves that he provides anything of value. He is not a major league player. He cannot hit, and he cannot play more than once, at most twice a week. It is inexcusable to come into this year and continue to say that this will be a time share position. Fortes is so clearly better than him, especially at the plate, and you cannot continue to justify starting stallings over fortes for any reason other than a day game after a night game or the occasional rest day. It is complete mismanagement. I said it when they got stallings, the guy cant fucking hit,. Stop doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. It's not even like miguel olivo where he will occasionally hit a bomb for you. Stallings quite literally does nothing productive at the plate, nor has he ever done anything productive at the plate for his entire career. He has 0 power, he does not get on base, he does not walk, he strikes out too much, he does not even make hard contact ever. He is a flat out unplayable hitter. It's only going to get worse. He's 33 years old. it isnt getting better. Cut the shit and stop playing him outside of a rest day for fortes. He is flat out awful. Continuing to put him out there for sandy is also infuriating. Sandy isnt sandy because of stallings catching ability. He's sandy because he's a fucking great pitcher regardless of who is catching him. On a team with terrible hitting, stop throwing the worst hitter in baseball out there multiple times a week.

[rmc523]

THIS discussion is premature, but fuck it I’m wound up, so let’s throw it out there. What do you do if you’re the Marlins, and this is exactly who they are this season? Like, what if they actually lose more games than last year? We all know they aren’t going to just go out and start signing the needed good players to bridge the gap between them and the good teams. So the actual logical move would be to get a new GM and once again rebuild. The problem is, you can’t do that from a PR perspective. Another rebuild and how do you expect the fans to stick with it. So the only other option is status quo. Keep lying to yourself that the guys you have will eventually get better, that you’ll start drafting good players, and minimal improvements via trade or FA will get you where you need to go. Unfortunately though, that’s the least likely way to actually ever contend.

Kim should be fired for one thing. I don't care about the whole clock starting/this is her first full offseason w/out Jeter & co around. She's shown enough that she's not up for the job.

They don't care about PR. If they did, they'd have signed people.

[rmc523]

Did you see the crowd last night? Fans aren't exactly sticking with it. They will justify another re-build with "well no one is showing up anyway." The window to spend money and show the fanbase that they're different and going to invest in the team and invest in winning has come and almost past at this point.

They've had 3 offseasons to make that big signing/move they need to.....and instead we got Soler and Avi.

They could've done it "before" their ideal window with JT, and "during" our window the last 2, and they've done nothing. Absurd.

[rmc523]

Disagree here - they go out and spend $50m in free agency next year with that team I mentioned above (call it 1 major bat, 1 major SP, trading SP for 1 major young bat, and signing a "Segura" or "Cueto" on top, which could just be retaining Cooper or dare I say, a Soler extension if he is good again), and interest will be extremely high. Will it last if they are terrible again? No - but they have to start somewhere and I am pretty sure we reference Jayson Werth more than anyone else in baseball. That move has to happen. And it hasn't yet. (Add on top of this extensions for Arraez, Luzardo, Jazz, and anyone else worthy).

Yes that is in comparison to "now" but I truly believe people want to love the Marlins, but just can't. The Marlins either need to win sustained for years, like the Rays, at this practice, or spend money. Look at Oakland. They were SO GOOD under Beane even if they never won, and now look at them. You can't run this payroll forever and they've been doing it for literally 20 years absent 2004/2005 and the new stadium briefly.

I do think they are a year away because Eury needs a year, Eder is off an injury, Meyer and Bender are hurt, Berry needs at least another year, and Luzardo, Rogers, Cabrera, and Garrett all are going to max out innings under 150 this year probably. This rebuild is taking forever, but they are inching forward to that moment where everyone is on the MLB team, and it's probably mid-June 2024. Bruce should be spending to speed up the process, but it is what it is.

Alternatively, maybe we do want the Maddawg 49 win season so Bruce just sells the team. I'm fine with taking that if it gets someone who will spend "19th-22nd" in payroll which is quite frankly, a 150% improvement.

Except, they're always "a year away", and never make THAT move that convince you they're finally doing what needs to be done. Meanwhile, Kim has completely ignored the team's most critical needs - CF, SS, bullpen - for 2 years in a row. Why should we have any confidence they'll do it next offseason.

[lou]

Yeah, if only our GM could have known we needed more bats.

Bruce needs to be forced to sell to an ultra wealthy owner that is willing to massively invest and take losses to show this town they mean business and will do everything possible to win. Then people will come.

I hate starting to feel like the season is over 5 games in.

What is she to do if Bruce won't spend and other teams won't take deals for bats notably better than what they have?

It's Bruce. But yes, a terrible start to an obvious offseason problem.

[lou]

it wont, they will continue to lie to themselves that he provides anything of value. He is not a major league player. He cannot hit, and he cannot play more than once, at most twice a week. It is inexcusable to come into this year and continue to say that this will be a time share position. Fortes is so clearly better than him, especially at the plate, and you cannot continue to justify starting stallings over fortes for any reason other than a day game after a night game or the occasional rest day. It is complete mismanagement. I said it when they got stallings, the guy cant fucking hit,. Stop doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. It's not even like miguel olivo where he will occasionally hit a bomb for you. Stallings quite literally does nothing productive at the plate, nor has he ever done anything productive at the plate for his entire career. He has 0 power, he does not get on base, he does not walk, he strikes out too much, he does not even make hard contact ever. He is a flat out unplayable hitter. It's only going to get worse. He's 33 years old. it isnt getting better. Cut the shit and stop playing him outside of a rest day for fortes. He is flat out awful. Continuing to put him out there for sandy is also infuriating. Sandy isnt sandy because of stallings catching ability. He's sandy because he's a fucking great pitcher regardless of who is catching him. On a team with terrible hitting, stop throwing the worst hitter in baseball out there multiple times a week.

Yes it will. Fortes is going to have more PA than Stallings.

Of all the things to complain about, this is extremely far down the list.

[lou]

They've had 3 offseasons to make that big signing/move they need to.....and instead we got Soler and Avi.

They could've done it "before" their ideal window with JT, and "during" our window the last 2, and they've done nothing. Absurd.

Realmuto would have been a poor expenditure in theory (you don't sign catchers that old longterm, although clearly it worked out in hindsight), but they clearly had an opportunity with the 4 shortstops (and Nimmo) this offseason, or doing something like Rodon + another SP trade for a bat, and whiffed on all of that.

[Nick]

Disagree here - they go out and spend $50m in free agency next year with that team I mentioned above (call it 1 major bat, 1 major SP, trading SP for 1 major young bat, and signing a "Segura" or "Cueto" on top, which could just be retaining Cooper or dare I say, a Soler extension if he is good again), and interest will be extremely high. Will it last if they are terrible again? No - but they have to start somewhere and I am pretty sure we reference Jayson Werth more than anyone else in baseball. That move has to happen. And it hasn't yet. (Add on top of this extensions for Arraez, Luzardo, Jazz, and anyone else worthy).

Yes that is in comparison to "now" but I truly believe people want to love the Marlins, but just can't. The Marlins either need to win sustained for years, like the Rays, at this practice, or spend money. Look at Oakland. They were SO GOOD under Beane even if they never won, and now look at them. You can't run this payroll forever and they've been doing it for literally 20 years absent 2004/2005 and the new stadium briefly.

I do think they are a year away because Eury needs a year, Eder is off an injury, Meyer and Bender are hurt, Berry needs at least another year, and Luzardo, Rogers, Cabrera, and Garrett all are going to max out innings under 150 this year probably. This rebuild is taking forever, but they are inching forward to that moment where everyone is on the MLB team, and it's probably mid-June 2024. Bruce should be spending to speed up the process, but it is what it is.

Alternatively, maybe we do want the Maddawg 49 win season so Bruce just sells the team. I'm fine with taking that if it gets someone who will spend "19th-22nd" in payroll which is quite frankly, a 150% improvement.

What are you disagreeing with, because I mostly agree with you. Is it that I said the window to invest in the team is closing? Because I don't think that's debatable, we've had 6 offseasons under the Sherman regime. The new owner smell is long gone. I'm not talking about even from a roster standpoint, I'm talking about from a credibility standpoint, why the fuck would you buy a team and not spend in the first 6 years of ownership? And I'm supposed to believe suddenly in year 10 that you're going to all of a sudden spend? Get out of here..

[lou]

Except, they're always "a year away", and never make THAT move that convince you they're finally doing what needs to be done. Meanwhile, Kim has completely ignored the team's most critical needs - CF, SS, bullpen - for 2 years in a row. Why should we have any confidence they'll do it next offseason.

Well they moved their best player to CF to accomodate Arraez (a huge bat) and traded for Puk, Barnes, Chargois, and selected Enright in the Rule V. So to be fair, they did do that. Those are not insignificant moves.

But, not getting a SS alone (or sure, a CF and shift around the IF as you may) is so overwhelming of a failure I find it difficult to have any confidence in them. Money or some epic prospect trade could have theoretically solved that.

The faint shimmer of hope I see is what I said - Luzardo, Cabrera, Rogers, and Garrett will have significantly more innings potential on their arms, and Eury, Meyer, Eder, Bender, Berry, and maybe some others (Groshans, Fulton, etc.) will likely be MLB ready June 2024 at the latest. Combined with they lose really nothing at the MLB level, in their minds, 2024 may be "the year." Of course FA in 2024 is not as good as last year so they should have done this Rangers style and signed Seager/Semien combo 1 year early rather than 1 year late, but *if* they stay healthy with these young guys and don't get another round of multiple young arm blow outs, they are going to easily have 22+ guys on the MLB roster ready to go next year with super upside and just needing those 2-3 starters and 1-2 platoon/role bats on top. So sure, confidence is low but that shimmer of all the pitching working out and having a good offensive base very much exists.

[rmc523]

Realmuto would have been a poor expenditure in theory (you don't sign catchers that old longterm, although clearly it worked out in hindsight), but they clearly had an opportunity with the 4 shortstops (and Nimmo) this offseason, or doing something like Rodon + another SP trade for a bat, and whiffed on all of that.

It's the Werth signing. Overspend on a deal that may work out to show people - fans, players, owners - you mean business.

[rmc523]

What are you disagreeing with, because I mostly agree with you. Is it that I said the window to invest in the team is closing? Because I don't think that's debatable, we've had 6 offseasons under the Sherman regime. The new owner smell is long gone. I'm not talking about even from a roster standpoint, I'm talking about from a credibility standpoint, why the fuck would you buy a team and not spend in the first 6 years of ownership? And I'm supposed to believe suddenly in year 10 that you're going to all of a sudden spend? Get out of here..

Yeah, I get not spending initially if you're truly doing a full rebuild....but we're well past that now. Doing nothing after 2020 success in a year of depressed salaries was telling. Who cares if it was a short season? the org finally had something positive going for the first time in a decade and squandered it.

Well they moved their best player to CF to accomodate Arraez (a huge bat) and traded for Puk, Barnes, Chargois, and selected Enright in the Rule V. So to be fair, they did do that. Those are not insignificant moves.

But, not getting a SS alone (or sure, a CF and shift around the IF as you may) is so overwhelming of a failure I find it difficult to have any confidence in them. Money or some epic prospect trade could have theoretically solved that.

The faint shimmer of hope I see is what I said - Luzardo, Cabrera, Rogers, and Garrett will have significantly more innings potential on their arms, and Eury, Meyer, Eder, Bender, Berry, and maybe some others (Groshans, Fulton, etc.) will likely be MLB ready June 2024 at the latest. Combined with they lose really nothing at the MLB level, in their minds, 2024 may be "the year." Of course FA in 2024 is not as good as last year so they should have done this Rangers style and signed Seager/Semien combo 1 year early rather than 1 year late, but *if* they stay healthy with these young guys and don't get another round of multiple young arm blow outs, they are going to easily have 22+ guys on the MLB roster ready to go next year with super upside and just needing those 2-3 starters and 1-2 platoon/role bats on top. So sure, confidence is low but that shimmer of all the pitching working out and having a good offensive base very much exists.

I guess....but as usual, we're counting on an "everything goes right" scenario....which almost never happens.

[lou]

What are you disagreeing with, because I mostly agree with you. Is it that I said the window to invest in the team is closing? Because I don't think that's debatable, we've had 6 offseasons under the Sherman regime. The new owner smell is long gone. I'm not talking about even from a roster standpoint, I'm talking about from a credibility standpoint, why the fuck would you buy a team and not spend in the first 6 years of ownership? And I'm supposed to believe suddenly in year 10 that you're going to all of a sudden spend? Get out of here..

Yea - I don't think the window to spend money and show the fanbase that they're different and going to invest has come and almost past. They do have time still. I do think I will agree with that though, if this "perfect storm" develops that I've been musing - all the pitchers work out and they have the brutal top 13 we hope and still don't do anything more than a Segura signing.

If this is the predominant pitching staff next year and they don't heavily invest in call in 2 major bats, and at least 1 more Segura, yes. Get out of here. I'm with you. I'm going to become a Mariners fan or something.

Sandy, Luzardo, Cabrera, Rogers, Eury (and Fulton)
Meyer, Bender, Chargois, Enright, Sixto (and various other RHP reliever types)
Puk, Garrett, Eder (and Castano, Nardi, Simpson, other RP types)

You have that as the core team and dick around with the bats, get out of here.

[lou]

It's the Werth signing. Overspend on a deal that may work out to show people - fans, players, owners - you mean business.

Yes, but an old catcher isn't that player. And, that would have been many years too early.

I think it was Correa, Swanson, Turner, Boegarts, Nimmo, or Rodon this year. Maybe even Edwin Diaz (thank god) + just unload for Reynolds and Bednar and resign everyone. Those would have been real splashes as the main move with Arraez being quite the 2nd big one.

Frankly, this kind of move doesn't exist next year. Rosario could be good for SS, but he's not that class of guys above. I don't think they can overspend next year unless it is a SP. Which is fine, but obviously that creates moving parts where they will have to trade for me.

They really, really, blew it this year not getting one of those SS. Maybe they surprise us with something at the deadline.

[fish16]

Yes it will. Fortes is going to have more PA than Stallings.

Of all the things to complain about, this is extremely far down the list.

it's not just ok for him to have more ab's. He should be the everyday catcher starting 120 games. There is no reason for stallings to play other than rest. It's not enough for it to just be a time share with fortes starting more often. Fortes should be playing every single day other than rest days. Stallings after today because sandy is pitching will have started 4 of the 6 games. Enough with the guy already. He is complete trash. He is unplayable. His at bats are not even competitive. He would put up mediocre numbers in AAA. It's not extremely far down the list. We have a catcher who can be a decent hitter on a team that desperately needs hitting. And we refuse to make him the full time starting catcher. It's not a panacea, but it will absolutely help on a nightly basis to have a guy who can actually hit as opposed to a jeff mathis type wasting plate appearances consistently. The SS position is already going to be a black hole in this lineup, and Garcia might very well have another terrible season (though ill give him more time), but with stallings and the SS position it's 2 positions that will provide 0 production. It's why i said fangraphs was on crack with the WAR projections for SS and for stallings himself. If they think stallings is providing 2 WAR they are absurdly wrong. The guy is a terrible major league player. There is no amount of defense that makes that bat playable. And the fact that they are choosing to play him so often when they have a good young player in fortes is just compounding the issue.