Marlins 2017-2018 Offseason Discussion Thread

[Erick]

I forgot you had that crystal ball. You can't tell me that some desperate team who has injuries and desperately needs a bat for a playoff run wouldn't give us more than the pathetic haul we got for him last month, in a trade deadline deal.

To be fair, it’s not a “pathetic” haul.

[Nick]

To be fair, it’s not a “pathetic” haul.

If Alcantara turns into a #2-#3 starter I'll agree, but the fact that he's got a 4 ERA in 4 years at the low minor league levels does not give me a lot of hope, and a lot of scouts have him ending up in the bullpen. Sierra's a 4th OF. Classic marlins guy, no power, doesn't draw walks, is fast, but not a great basestealer.

[Namaste]

I'm just glad the new administration is in no way to blame for alienating these players so much that they feel the need to publicly ask for trades like this.

I think one or two people may have missed the sarcasm in this the post.

[emkayseven]

If you want to talk about pitiful returns, look at what the Pirates got for Cole and McCutchen. Yikes.

[fish16]

Also totally. You'd hope they would have had a sit down with at least Yelich (seriously who cares about the rest besides Realmuto) and have a serious plan to show to him how you are the future and why this is going to work in a year or two. 2018 is going to suck but please be a cheerleader and bear with it for a year. I understand he believes he has proven himself with 4 good years and wants to win as he is about to enter his prime, but this is some amateur hour BS from him and/or his agent. I guess they feel since Stanton bullied his way out maybe they can do it too. I think that's a bad move for him as his contract is valuable unlike Stanton, but hey whatever.

They should just keep him, do a good job with acquiring people in 2018, and hopefully it all makes sense this time next year. Can still trade him next year. Everyone will still want him.

While i agree, sitting down and telling them the plan would do nothing for them. Id be shocked if they havent already done that. These players just dont want to be part of a rebuild, and you cant really blame them not wanting to spend 3-4 of their prime years on terrible teams. The thing is they have no leverage and Yelich shouldnt have signed that contract. Yelich and JT will be here if the team wants them to be here and theyll be gone if they want them gone. Mucking up the situation publicly will do nothing but make it more likely the marlins dont trade them because it's hurting their value.

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If Alcantara turns into a #2-#3 starter I'll agree, but the fact that he's got a 4 ERA in 4 years at the low minor league levels does not give me a lot of hope, and a lot of scouts have him ending up in the bullpen. Sierra's a 4th OF. Classic marlins guy, no power, doesn't draw walks, is fast, but not a great basestealer.

This totally seems like a irrational angry marlins fan post. Might end up being correct for all we know, but you have no idea Sierra will be a 4th OF. He actually has a pretty high floor because he is a dynamic defender. Also, Sierra actually has a pretty decent hit tool for a guy with no power. Worst case scenario is he will be a starting OF who hits low in the order and the team can survive it because he adds a couple WAR every year through defense alone.

Also, Gallen is consistently overlooked in the deal. He is a legit pitching prospect with a good chance to anchor the back end of the rotation for 6 team controlled years. The deal will ultimately hinge on Alcantara's future, but the overreaction that Ozuna's deal is some albatross salary dump move is so wrong, especially before you've ever seen any one of these guys put on a marlins uniform.

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People are really exaggerating how bad Sierra is offensively just because he doesnt hit for power.

By year after his first year in the DSL at age 17:

GCL at 18: .386 AVG, .939 OPS, 13/16 SB in 200 AB's
APP league at 19: .315 AVG, .371 OBP, .765 OPS, 15/17 SB's in 216 AB's.
Later that year he was rushed to full season A ball (equivalent of our Greensboro team) and wasnt ready as he only hit around .200 ,
but the next year he went back to that full season A ball team and hit .307, .335 OBP, and .730 OPS at age 20 with 30 SB's (albeit at a bad rate for the first time in his career in over 500 AB's.
Then this past year he was pretty much doing the same thing in his age 21 season in Jupiter for their A+ team when he was rushed to the big leagues and then had 3 separate stints because the Cardinals for some reason rushed him to the big leagues despite having so many MLB ready OF prospects. And he still held his own at the big league level. In 14 starts at the MLB level, he had 6 multi hit games.

So to continue to act as if Sierra is some black hole offensively simply because he doesnt hit for much power is just straight misinformation.

Also, FWIW, if you look at the reactions of Cardinals fans when they announced the deal, they were really high on Alcantara and didnt want to see Sierra go either.

[Nick]

While i agree, sitting down and telling them the plan would do nothing for them. Id be shocked if they havent already done that. These players just dont want to be part of a rebuild, and you cant really blame them not wanting to spend 3-4 of their prime years on terrible teams. The thing is they have no leverage and Yelich shouldnt have signed that contract. Yelich and JT will be here if the team wants them to be here and theyll be gone if they want them gone. Mucking up the situation publicly will do nothing but make it more likely the marlins dont trade them because it's hurting their value.

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This totally seems like a irrational angry marlins fan post. Might end up being correct for all we know, but you have no idea Sierra will be a 4th OF. He actually has a pretty high floor because he is a dynamic defender. Also, Sierra actually has a pretty decent hit tool for a guy with no power. Worst case scenario is he will be a starting OF who hits low in the order and the team can survive it because he adds a couple WAR every year through defense alone.

Also, Gallen is consistently overlooked in the deal. He is a legit pitching prospect with a good chance to anchor the back end of the rotation for 6 team controlled years. The deal will ultimately hinge on Alcantara's future, but the overreaction that Ozuna's deal is some albatross salary dump move is so wrong, especially before you've ever seen any one of these guys put on a marlins uniform.

I love that you went from hating the potential Ozuna deal before it was official, to loving the Ozuna deal, after it was done, for no other reason than it fits the narrative that you've been pushing the entire offseason. You hated on Dee Gordon all last season, couldn't wait to salary dump his ass even though for any organization that is not the marlins his contract was super reasonable, and yet you're trying to positively spin a deal where we're giving up our two-time all-star starter in his mid-20s who by all indications is getting better every year, and the best bat we got back is a guy whose best case scenario is he turns out to be Dee Gordon without the elite stolen base ability. I don't get it.

[fish16]

I love that you went from hating the potential Ozuna deal before it was official, to loving the Ozuna deal, after it was done, for no other reason than it fits the narrative that you've been pushing the entire offseason. You hated on Dee Gordon all last season, couldn't wait to salary dump his ass even though for any organization that is not the marlins his contract was super reasonable, and yet you're trying to positively spin a deal where we're giving up our two-time all-star starter in his mid-20s who by all indications is getting better every year, and the best bat we got back is a guy whose best case scenario is he turns out to be Dee Gordon without the elite stolen base ability. I don't get it.

I never hated the Ozuna deal, I just would have preferred centering the deal around Flaherty. The cardinals have one of the best systems in the league and believe it or not its possible to want the deal to be centered around one guy and still like a deal centered around other guys.

Not sure what you're Dee Gordon sentence is about, but I hated on Dee Gordon all year because I think you could find his production at 2b for not 8 figures. Hence why i like getting 6 years of cheap team control for a guy who could put up an OPS as high if not higher than Dee and provide more WAR defensively than Dee. It's not about the player, it's about getting the most out of every dollar spent. Sierra, if he lives up to his potential, for 6 years of team control is a much better value if not a potentially better player overall than Dee Gordon.

[Nick]

Well great we've got our Dee Gordon replacement. (maybe?) Replacing 96 home runs should be a snap.

[fish16]

Well great we've got our Dee Gordon replacement. (maybe?) Replacing 96 home runs should be a snap.

i know its gonna be super disappointing to miss out on our annual 77 wins

[emkayseven]

Also, FWIW, if you look at the reactions of Cardinals fans when they announced the deal, they were really high on Alcantara and didnt want to see Sierra go either.

Cardinals fans are morons, sooooooooo...

And also: "And he still held his own at the big league level. In 14 starts at the MLB level, he had 6 multi hit games. "

Thing called luck. He hit the ball weaker than most pitchers do during the time in the majors (an actual stat). And his BABIP was .413 - not a function of his speed, because that's 100 points higher than his minor league BABIP and would be the highest BABIP ever recorded. He got 19 lucky singles (not a single extra base hit!). I think his ceiling is 4th OF solely because of defense, but I'm sure like Hech we'll play him every day for 4 years and a portion of the fanbase will irrationally love him and be angry when we trade him and his .620 OPS and 1 WAR seasons.

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oh and FWIW in his very short time in the majors last year he made 3 errors in 8 games

and his UZR was -1.3

he is easily the worst player we got back - I like Gallen a good deal, and I think Alcantara will end up being just fine, but Sierra has shown nothing that suggests he should be in a major league starting lineup and you just KNOW we're going to play him out there for the better part of a decade

[fish16]

Cardinals fans are morons, sooooooooo...

And also: "And he still held his own at the big league level. In 14 starts at the MLB level, he had 6 multi hit games. "

Thing called luck. He hit the ball weaker than most pitchers do during the time in the majors (an actual stat). And his BABIP was .413 - not a function of his speed, because that's 100 points higher than his minor league BABIP and would be the highest BABIP ever recorded. He got 19 lucky singles (not a single extra base hit!). I think his ceiling is 4th OF solely because of defense, but I'm sure like Hech we'll play him every day for 4 years and a portion of the fanbase will irrationally love him and be angry when we trade him and his .620 OPS and 1 WAR seasons.

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oh and FWIW in his very short time in the majors last year he made 3 errors in 8 games

and his UZR was -1.3

he is easily the worst player we got back - I like Gallen a good deal, and I think Alcantara will end up being just fine, but Sierra has shown nothing that suggests he should be in a major league starting lineup and you just KNOW we're going to play him out there for the better part of a decade

You call it a thing called luck and argue for a small sample size while ignoring that he's eventually hit fairly effectively at every level he's been to. And talk about a small sample size when citing his UZR from his short time in the big leagues. All scouting reports indicate a dynamic fielder capable of adding value with his defense alone. You talk about his BABIP in the majors and call it luck, yet conveniently fail to mention that he's been a good hitter at a young age in the minors at every level despite the normalized BABIP that you cited in your very own post. His floor is that of a 4th OF, not his ceiling.

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Im not saying he's going to be like Yelich with the bat, but he's shown potential with the bat at every level despite his age, at least competent enough to be worth a few WAR a year with his glove alone, and that kind of ability with 6 years of team control is a pretty damn good asset to go along with a high potential/low floor pitcher in Alcantara and a low ceiling high floor guy in Gallen.

Im not guaranteeing any of them will be good, im saying to act as if Sierra is a 0 with the bat because he doesnt hit for power is not in reality with what he's shown with the bat at a young age at every level he's been to.

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at the very least, I think our lineup has a decent starting point in year 1 of a rebuild in stars in Yelich and Realmuto and interesting potential 2-3 WAR guys with 6 years of team control in Sierra and Anderson, along with a power hitting 1b in Bour if we decide to keep him. And we've acquired a lot of mid-back of the rotation pitchers and 2 pitchers with top of the rotation ceilings since the draft last year to the point where a few of them will eventually stick and be pieces in the rotation long term, again with 6 years of team control. Plus we will still end up trading (if not Yelich and Realmuto and Bour) guys like Straily, bour, Castro, Dietrich, Prado, Ziegler, Tazawa, Barraclough, etc to add more decent prospects to the farm. We're still gonna suck, but we're not anywhere near where those Astros teams were in year 1 of their rebuild. It's a low bar, but in year 1 of a complete overhaul, if we keep Yelich and Realmuto, we have a fairly solid starting point for the first year of a rebuild.

[Nick]

i know its gonna be super disappointing to miss out on our annual 77 wins

A change was necessary, no doubt. That doesn't mean any and every change is good. So far the changes have resulted in the loss of 2 elite sluggers, while not significantly improving our minor league system. Meanwhile a plan has been laid out (Project Wolverine) by the new ownership that leads me to believe that all this money they're saving won't necessarily be re-attributed to the product on the field. So yeah I'm less than enthused right now.

[Namaste]

But Nick you have to have BLIND FAITH in the one poster here (who is clearly on new ownerships payroll in some form) and he will prove us all wrong when we win 80 games (INSTEAD OF THE USUAL 77) in 2020.




First we have to lose 202* games in 2018/2019, though



*if they keep Yelich/Realmuto

[fauowls44]

Here is video from yesterday from Peter Gammons about the Yelich situation. He says that the Marlins are demanding star talent like Acuna from ATL and could hold on to him until they get it. This is the proper strategy. There is no reason that the Marlins should settle for less than a huge haul for either Yelich or Realmuto. They either have to get what they demand in return or hold on to them.

https://www.mlb.com/video/marlins-wa...h/c-1872688683

[fish16]

But Nick you have to have BLIND FAITH in the one poster here (who is clearly on new ownerships payroll in some form) and he will prove us all wrong when we win 80 games (INSTEAD OF THE USUAL 77) in 2020.




First we have to lose 202* games in 2018/2019, though



*if they keep Yelich/Realmuto

i dont have blind faith. if they dont reinvest in IFA and the draft ive said numerous times ill crush the front office. Im just not going to criticize a much needed rebuild before any of the players we've acquired even put on the marlins uniform. Im just not gonna cry over losing key players from a team who hasnt had a winning season in nearly 10 years.