Marlins 2017-2018 Offseason Discussion Thread

[fish16]

I hate seeing when people rationalize the moves the Marlins have made so far by saying look at how the Cubs and Astros did it and built themselves back up. There is one major difference. Those teams went on to buy as much international talent as they could. The rules have changed. Clubs can't do that any longer. Both teams drafted really good as well but one major key to their fast rebound was the large quantity of high end international talent. Its great and all to see the Marlins mentioned with the soon to be IFA Martinez but I have a hard time believing they actually land a player of this caliber. Loria loved to have it thrown out there that the team was interested in all the big time Cuban defectors however they always just came up short. I really hope that is not the case here that they aren't just making sure they are being mentioned knowing they honestly have no shot.

While I agree that the rules changing do make a bit of a difference, we're not asking for them to go out and sign 2-3 top players every year. Just sign one or at least attempt to get in the game for some of the top guys. While it would suck, id be fine with us attempting to sign guys and guys just choosing to sign elsewhere. My biggest complaint is our complete ignoring of the IFA market as a whole. All it would take is one huge mega prospect to make a huge difference in our farm system.

[tjfla]

My problem isn't even with Michael Hill himself. It's the fact that I just can't imagine a scenario where Jeter, Sherman, Denbo and company come in here take a look at what's here and tell everyone that they have a different plan, we recognize the faults of the previous administration, were taking this in a different direction, and the guy that's going to execute this plan as General Manager is the same guy that was General Manager before. That leads me to believe they don't have a plan. I just don't understand how you invest over a billion dollars and you don't have your own guy at General Manager.

And fish16 will say that Denbo is the guy. Then why isn't he the GM? What is he being protected from?

Because Mike Hill has a contract(I know the others had a contract too and got let go of) and Denbo would rather deal with farm system,draft,IFA than sit in GM meetings and talk to guys all day about minor league signings. Just because u have a title doesn't mean much-just look at the GM's when Jeff was here. U think Mike Hill called NYY and got Cooper and Smith because he likes them? HELL NO!! Denbo likes them and stole them from NYY. Do u think that Mike Hill told the NYY that he wanted Guzman and Devers??? Hell NO-Denbo told him thats who he should get. If u look for quotes after the Stanton trade,mentions that guys knew the system and all

Give it 2 years Denbo will be promoted to President/GM and one of his assistants like Greenlee will be promoted to Player Development

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I hate seeing when people rationalize the moves the Marlins have made so far by saying look at how the Cubs and Astros did it and built themselves back up. There is one major difference. Those teams went on to buy as much international talent as they could. The rules have changed. Clubs can't do that any longer. Both teams drafted really good as well but one major key to their fast rebound was the large quantity of high end international talent. Its great and all to see the Marlins mentioned with the soon to be IFA Martinez but I have a hard time believing they actually land a player of this caliber. Loria loved to have it thrown out there that the team was interested in all the big time Cuban defectors however they always just came up short. I really hope that is not the case here that they aren't just making sure they are being mentioned knowing they honestly have no shot.

True they spent 20 million on IFA but they also drafted VERY smart. Instead of spending all draft pool cash on 1 guy then crap(Kolek,Anderson,Twine) they drafted talent/BPA. They also traded everything for prospects and set a target year(Which they are doing here)

Big difference between Jeff and now is teams can't spend 50 million on Cubans. U can only spend the pool $ so while u have a hard time believing its NOT really that hard to see us getting him especially since 20 teams can't spend more than 300K per player OR already have their 2018 money committed to guys.

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While I agree that the rules changing do make a bit of a difference, we're not asking for them to go out and sign 2-3 top players every year. Just sign one or at least attempt to get in the game for some of the top guys. While it would suck, id be fine with us attempting to sign guys and guys just choosing to sign elsewhere. My biggest complaint is our complete ignoring of the IFA market as a whole. All it would take is one huge mega prospect to make a huge difference in our farm system.

This!! If u get 1 Top 5 guy every year it makes a big difference. Sign 1 guy for $2.5-3 million and then another 10-15 for the other $2.5 million.

2018 guys have alrady been committed since LY so we aren't getting anything big this year(beside Martinez) but starting in 2019 we should be big players in the IFA market

[Nick]

Because Mike Hill has a contract(I know the others had a contract too and got let go of) and Denbo would rather deal with farm system,draft,IFA than sit in GM meetings and talk to guys all day about minor league signings. Just because u have a title doesn't mean much-just look at the GM's when Jeff was here. U think Mike Hill called NYY and got Cooper and Smith because he likes them? HELL NO!! Denbo likes them and stole them from NYY. Do u think that Mike Hill told the NYY that he wanted Guzman and Devers??? Hell NO-Denbo told him thats who he should get. If u look for quotes after the Stanton trade,mentions that guys knew the system and all

Give it 2 years Denbo will be promoted to President/GM and one of his assistants like Greenlee will be promoted to Player Development

What you're saying doesn't exactly give me confidence in the new org, I actually agree with pretty much everything you say here. I assume Hill's role is just a continuation of his role under Loria. (Jeff as you call him) Definitely practices that they should model themselves after.

So as of now Denbo's major contributions have been on the deals with NYY, I definitely buy that, I would hope that's not all he's good for, and hope that you are incorrect that the only reason he's not the GM is because he doesn't want to be involved in GM Meetings, because that's pathetic. On the other hand the St. Louis deal looks like vintage Mike Hill, which is the move so far that I have the most problems with.

[fish16]

I think the moves we've made with the yankees thus far have actually been really smart moves, specifically that cooper/smith deal. I think cooper could be a bour type late bloomer finally getting a chance and Smith is nothing special but i could see him being a koehler type rotation piece for a few years. And as i've said I think Guzman will be in the top 50 prospects by next year at least.

And Nick I completely understand the skepticism, and even though you guys think ill rationalize anything away i've said i will crush the team if they continue to cheap out via IFA and the draft, I just think people need to take a deep breath and at least give it a year before crushing every move. I think we're in a much better place in year 1 of a rebuild than a lot of other teams are. Granted, our farm system is still in the bottom half of the league, but that's expected in year 1 of a rebuild. I think since the draft last year the front office has done a really good job in trying to rebuild the depth in the farm system.

Maybe im reading into something that's not there, but I think last year the front office was finally given the autonomy to build this team the right way once last year went off the rails and it was clear Loria would no longer be around, and that gives me a little optimism that this front office can build the team the right way. I think our pitching depth is actually fairly solid now, albeit the guys with the most potential are big flame out risks. But just since last year alone we have the few pitchers in the Phelps deal, Rogers in the draft, Richards emerged, Merandy gonzalez in the Ramos deal, Neidert who is really under the radar but should be a solid rotation piece, Alcantara and Guzman as potential front of the rotation guys even with the flame out potential, and Gallen who looks like a good rotation piece too.

My whole point being that people just need to take a deep breath and take a step back and view the moves in context with each other. It is clear we are trying to build organizational depth again for the first time in a while and that takes time. Could we have gotten a top 50 guy for Ozuna? Sure, but I think from everything the front office has said that it is clear that depth is priority number 1, and i think theyve done a decent job balancing trying to get potential high end talent with also trying to build organizational depth.

adderall is a hell of a drug my friends.

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Tjfla, maybe you could help me out with this, but i read something somewhere that I can no longer find that we hired someone who is super connected in the IFA market. Any idea who im talking about?

[fish16]

Man, cubs had an unreal IFA in 2013- Gleyber Torres and Eloy Jiminez.

[Nick]

I like the Smith and Cooper pick-ups. Those are the types of depth moves we should've been making the last couple of years so we didn't have to have a month of Don Kelly at 1st base, and key games started by Odrisamer Despaigne. The whole Stanton situation was botched IMO, we've been over that, but they probably did the best they could with what they got from the Yankees after they'd put themselves in that situation.

[fish16]

I like the Smith and Cooper pick-ups. Those are the types of depth moves we should've been making the last couple of years so we didn't have to have a month of Don Kelly at 1st base, and key games started by Odrisamer Despaigne. The whole Stanton situation was botched IMO, we've been over that, but they probably did the best they could with what they got from the Yankees after they'd put themselves in that situation.

Completely agreed on the depth moves thing. One of the many reasons we've been so bad for so many consecutive years is because this team completely ignored depth for years and thus any time we had a significant injury we went into the tank. I think thats one of the many reasons I admire the way the Cards run their organization. It seems like year after year they have been able to survive significant injuries by bringing up guys they drafted and developed to fill in and not be complete zeros as fill ins. Injuries are inevitable, and it's like this team every year just looks at the depth chart and thinks "wow, we look really good on paper" without even giving thought to the possibility that Stanton or Jose could get injured, or even lesser guys like Bour. The guys dont even have to be great, just dont be black holes. They dont have to be .800 OPS guys, just dont be below .650 OPS guys and that makes a significant difference.

Im just gonna go through a list of guys who have filled in for injury for us for weeks at a time due to injuries: Telis, Aviles, Tyler Moore, Christian Colon, Despaigne, Worley, Chris O'Grady, Jake Esch, Chris Johnson, Xavier Scruggs, Francouer, Don Kelly, Cole Gillispie, Casey McGehee 2.0, Donovan Solano, Brad Penny 2.0, Randy Wolf, Reed Johnson, Ed Lucas.

I think this entire rebuild could have been avoided if Loria would have just stopped trying to make win now moves by dealing prospects all the time and instead continued to develop from within. I think that is the reason why we have those 1-2 months every fucking year where we just go into the tank for an entire month.

[tjfla]

What you're saying doesn't exactly give me confidence in the new org, I actually agree with pretty much everything you say here. I assume Hill's role is just a continuation of his role under Loria. (Jeff as you call him) Definitely practices that they should model themselves after.

So as of now Denbo's major contributions have been on the deals with NYY, I definitely buy that, I would hope that's not all he's good for, and hope that you are incorrect that the only reason he's not the GM is because he doesn't want to be involved in GM Meetings, because that's pathetic. On the other hand the St. Louis deal looks like vintage Mike Hill, which is the move so far that I have the most problems with.

No he not the "GM" because he is dealing with the minors right now. Instead of spending a week in meetings or sitting in an office talking minor signings he is doing IFA scouting,looking at other teams prospects and dealing with the minor leagues(figuring out where guys should be)

The St Louis deal isn't as bad as people made it out to be. Ozuna is a FA in 2 years and Boras wants 7/250 for him. They got 3 ML guys for Ozuna NOT 3 maybe ML guys in 3 years but 3 guys who will be in Miami in 2018. If Jeff would have just traded Ozuna earlier we would have gotten more but his desire to go for it screwed us

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I think the moves we've made with the yankees thus far have actually been really smart moves, specifically that cooper/smith deal. I think cooper could be a bour type late bloomer finally getting a chance and Smith is nothing special but i could see him being a koehler type rotation piece for a few years. And as i've said I think Guzman will be in the top 50 prospects by next year at least.

And Nick I completely understand the skepticism, and even though you guys think ill rationalize anything away i've said i will crush the team if they continue to cheap out via IFA and the draft, I just think people need to take a deep breath and at least give it a year before crushing every move. I think we're in a much better place in year 1 of a rebuild than a lot of other teams are. Granted, our farm system is still in the bottom half of the league, but that's expected in year 1 of a rebuild. I think since the draft last year the front office has done a really good job in trying to rebuild the depth in the farm system.

Maybe im reading into something that's not there, but I think last year the front office was finally given the autonomy to build this team the right way once last year went off the rails and it was clear Loria would no longer be around, and that gives me a little optimism that this front office can build the team the right way. I think our pitching depth is actually fairly solid now, albeit the guys with the most potential are big flame out risks. But just since last year alone we have the few pitchers in the Phelps deal, Rogers in the draft, Richards emerged, Merandy gonzalez in the Ramos deal, Neidert who is really under the radar but should be a solid rotation piece, Alcantara and Guzman as potential front of the rotation guys even with the flame out potential, and Gallen who looks like a good rotation piece too.

My whole point being that people just need to take a deep breath and take a step back and view the moves in context with each other. It is clear we are trying to build organizational depth again for the first time in a while and that takes time. Could we have gotten a top 50 guy for Ozuna? Sure, but I think from everything the front office has said that it is clear that depth is priority number 1, and i think theyve done a decent job balancing trying to get potential high end talent with also trying to build organizational depth.

adderall is a hell of a drug my friends.

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Tjfla, maybe you could help me out with this, but i read something somewhere that I can no longer find that we hired someone who is super connected in the IFA market. Any idea who im talking about?

We didn't sign him because he is suspended for 2018(Atlanta scandal) but its Gordon Blakeley. He is the guy who helped the NYY sign all the IFA guys then went to Atlanta and helped them. He is the guy who got Robert Puason(14 yr old super prospect) to sign with Atlanta 2 years before he could. We will probably sign Blakeley in 2019 to be the International Scouting Director when he is reinstated and Puason is eligible to sign in 2019

https://www.baseballamerica.com/inte...rirkZPuxs9e.97

6'3 Haitian SS

[emkayseven]

To go back to the economics thing, there's no doubt south Florida should have an MLB franchise but it's always been handled poorly. As noted all sports (UM football, Dolphins, Heat) have trouble drawing when they aren't winning, and they don't play 81 home games. The home games need to have some kind of draw. The concerts they used to do were a great idea - not sure why they got away from that. The idea they had to develop the area around the ballpark with shops and bars and restaurants was a great idea - never happened (what's there, a Subway?). The Clevelander is a brilliant idea, and that's about it - and it's too small to host more than a few hundred people. There should be something at that outdoor plaza area 1-2 games a week. Food truck rally or beer tasting or live band or just promo tables set up or whatever. I generally like the food at the park but outside of the Taste of Miami (which doesn't have "one" signature thing) the Marlins don't have anything original. Convince some old player to slap his name on a restaurant there, even if it's just a branding thing. (Wasn't Andre Dawson in the restaurant business at some point? I know they just cut ties with him but they should have done this years ago.) Just convince Gary Sheffield to stick his name and a caricature on a restaurant in right field - Sheff's Table. Luis Castillo on a sandwich stand, Louie's Lunch. Mike Lowell on a southern food stand, Lowell Country Boil. Juan Pierre on a dessert place, Juan's Flan. Ryan Dempster on a hot wing place, Dempster's Fire. Just pick one and give it something unique.

Right now what's the draw to come out, even if the team is winning? The stadium is in the middle of nowhere, parking is a disaster, traffic is awful, and you can't do anything before/after except be in the stadium. Give fans a reason to go and they'll go regardless of if the team stinks.

And - there needs to be a "last minute" decision option too. I seem to recall that at some point at JRS there was something where day-of tickets were dirt cheap. Bring that back.

[lou]

Just an interesting article about the Atlanta Falcons lowering concession prices, and making more money, as that seems prudent to what can the Marlins do - http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...um-concessions

[rmc523]

I think this entire rebuild could have been avoided if Loria would have just stopped trying to make win now moves by dealing prospects all the time and instead continued to develop from within. I think that is the reason why we have those 1-2 months every fucking year where we just go into the tank for an entire month.

I agree with this. We wouldn't have had to sign the Volquezs etc. of the world. To be fair with Chen, I liked the signing at the time (even if it was overvalued), as he put up solid numbers in Baltimore for years.....obviously he hasn't done that here.

If Jeff would have just traded Ozuna earlier we would have gotten more but his desire to go for it screwed us

When would've been better to trade him? He had a down year was it last year or the year before?

To go back to the economics thing, there's no doubt south Florida should have an MLB franchise but it's always been handled poorly. As noted all sports (UM football, Dolphins, Heat) have trouble drawing when they aren't winning, and they don't play 81 home games. The home games need to have some kind of draw. The concerts they used to do were a great idea - not sure why they got away from that. The idea they had to develop the area around the ballpark with shops and bars and restaurants was a great idea - never happened (what's there, a Subway?). The Clevelander is a brilliant idea, and that's about it - and it's too small to host more than a few hundred people. There should be something at that outdoor plaza area 1-2 games a week. Food truck rally or beer tasting or live band or just promo tables set up or whatever. I generally like the food at the park but outside of the Taste of Miami (which doesn't have "one" signature thing) the Marlins don't have anything original. Convince some old player to slap his name on a restaurant there, even if it's just a branding thing. (Wasn't Andre Dawson in the restaurant business at some point? I know they just cut ties with him but they should have done this years ago.) Just convince Gary Sheffield to stick his name and a caricature on a restaurant in right field - Sheff's Table. Luis Castillo on a sandwich stand, Louie's Lunch. Mike Lowell on a southern food stand, Lowell Country Boil. Juan Pierre on a dessert place, Juan's Flan. Ryan Dempster on a hot wing place, Dempster's Fire. Just pick one and give it something unique.

Right now what's the draw to come out, even if the team is winning? The stadium is in the middle of nowhere, parking is a disaster, traffic is awful, and you can't do anything before/after except be in the stadium. Give fans a reason to go and they'll go regardless of if the team stinks.

And - there needs to be a "last minute" decision option too. I seem to recall that at some point at JRS there was something where day-of tickets were dirt cheap. Bring that back.

I agree with this completely. There's zero incentive to come early or stay late around the ballpark, unless you want to talk to the "no blocky" folks that live there.

-Definitely agree about the concerts - I think they tried that at first in the new park, but instead of having it in the stadium like at Sun Life, they had it in the west plaza, so if you went out the east side of the stadium, you probably didn't notice it or go (I know they announce it, but still).
-Fireworks too - they dropped that last year, I always liked seeing those at Friday games.....while I wouldn't go specifically for the fireworks, I'd be more likely to go to the game with fireworks than without it.
-They still have empty storefronts in the shops on the ground floor of the north parking garages, and the shops that are in it (I think a pharmacy is one and a couple others) - are places you wouldn't go.
-Conine had a restaurant a while back (Conine's) but I don't think it's around anymore.

Don't even get me started on trying to head north out of the ballpark after a game - the route to get to 95N is HORRIBLE. One lane headed northbound where you have to go across 4 lanes of traffic immediately to get to....

I have noticed there's been a few more nice looking apartment complexes and I think it's a school being built in the area around the park, so that is somewhat of a good sign - means that maybe the area will slowly be fixed up - but right now, as you said, there's no reason to stick around. Perhaps something like SunTrust park's setup could be developed - with shops and whatnot in the surrounding area.

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Just an interesting article about the Atlanta Falcons lowering concession prices, and making more money, as that seems prudent to what can the Marlins do - http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...um-concessions

I believe it - a soda is $4 (more for beer, and when I'm at the park, I go sign up for the designated driver thing to get a free soda coupon so I don't have to pay the $4), a Pizza is $10, if you get an ice cream, that's another $4 I think. So you're at ~$18 for one person. I often won't get an ice cream because of that, so they're typically getting just $10 out of me.

If soda and ice cream were $2 each, Id probably get them every time, or at the very least, I wouldn't go out of my way to get a free soda coupon, meaning they'd get a minimum of $12 out of me, and possibly $14.

Granted, the food could also be cheaper, but the point stands - I'd buy more items if the price were more reasonable.

[MiamiHomer]

[tweet]956676107415310336[/tweet]

[Ralph]

What pisses me off more now is the Ozuna trade. Should have taken another pitcher instead of Sierra.

[MiamiHomer]

[tweet]956678289447321600[/tweet]

I mean, if they don't get Robles at this point then don't trade him.

[sports24/7]

[tweet]956678289447321600[/tweet]

I mean, if they don't get Robles at this point then don't trade him.

Agreed. And if you get Robles, it's a good move.