Marlins 2017-2018 Offseason Discussion Thread

[Nick]

Is it beyond plausibility that they interviewed Hill, he said the right things, acknowledged the failures, pointed out X% of them was due to Loria or whoever, I can show I wanted X versus Y in old correspondence and was overruled, etc. so that there is at least the picture of real accountability and the problem with the organization is not solely due to Hill.

Yes, I do think this is beyond plausibility, and I'd like to know who else they interviewed if that is somehow the case.

[Maddawg]

Not just the straily trade, but the Cashner deal, the obvious at the time stupid Rodney deal, Latos deal, Chen contract, Tazawa and Ziegler deals, etc. Just so many deals where it is clear they gave up the farm/future in win now moves for a team that realistically didnt have a chance

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cant access that site but i wasnt disagreeing with you at all, i was just saying you could get into that place super easily for super cheap and sit wherever. Ive been doing that for marlins games since hard rock stadium.

Again I bring up the economics and you & others refuse to address it as probably the biggest cause of Marlins forever economic woes.....

Yes I am saying THERE SHOULD NOT BE AN MLB FRANCHISE IN SOUTH FLORIDA but there is, and we the fans have a stadium we are paying for, and there is a 30 year lease thatr has about 23 years to go.

[lou]

Yes, I do think this is beyond plausibility, and I'd like to know who else they interviewed if that is somehow the case.

Ok.

I also think it is beyond plausibility that guys spending $1.2 billion didn't reasonably vet Hill and there is some basis - whether baseball operations, continuity, salary, a combination of them, whatever - for him to still be around.

It would be pretty incredible for them to literally not have a front office plan and defer to "let's just keep the old guy for now and figure it out later." There's just no way that happened with this much money, and reputation, at stake.

[lou]

Again I bring up the economics and you & others refuse to address it as probably the biggest cause of Marlins forever economic woes.....

Yes I am saying THERE SHOULD NOT BE AN MLB FRANCHISE IN SOUTH FLORIDA but there is, and we the fans have a stadium we are paying for, and there is a 30 year lease thatr has about 23 years to go.

I disagree people are refusing to address economics. The team has never, in its history, ever consistently won to establish any sort of brand loyalty, coupled with there wasn't a stadium for 20 years which really didn't help. Win the world series? Dump the team the next year. Somehow win it again? A complete and utter blowup 2 years later where they didn't reinvest for seasons. Did they buyout Cabrera? No, that forced them to trade him. Sign a bunch of guys for the new stadium? A dump within a year and a half when that didn't work out. How did any of that ever establish any brand loyalty?

This is why the business plan is simple - just win. If you win consistently and have a good product, people will show up because it's fun, and that will snowball into slapping a name on the place easier/more lucratively, getting better TV deals, etc. Look at the Dallas Mavericks. What were they before Cuban and Dirk? They put a good product on the court for a decade and people still trust them even though they are losing now. The Marlins need to do this. Prove competency. How do they do that? Start with getting pitching. I understand the irony that the logical baseball move is to blow it up, and that is what I am criticizing above, but that is still the old regime's fault for leaving the place a wreck, and no one's fault concerning Fernandez which was completely a franchise altering event. The right decisions are being made so far; the only real debate is did they target the right pitchers in these trades and they should do a better PR job/how can they do that. Can't they be given sometime on that? It's unrealistic to think everything is gumdrops and rainbows overnight.

Also, there should absolutely be a MLB team in South Florida. It's a top 15 media market. You can fix ticket prices to combat income disparity as that was mentioned. There are plenty of opportunities to be successful in Miami, ownership has just done a real bad job on the product for decades.

Just win baby.

[fish16]

The economics thing would be more convincing if there werent also easy to find cheap tickets and the fact that literally every franchise down here has the same issue (obviously the marlins is more dire than the Heat and Fins). It just happens to be a reality of the market's fanbase

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The heat have probably the most trusted owner and front office in south florida sports history and still struggle to fill the AAA up when the team isnt great.

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man, edgar martinez got left out of the HOF again???

[Nick]

It would be pretty incredible for them to literally not have a front office plan and defer to "let's just keep the old guy for now and figure it out later." There's just no way that happened with this much money, and reputation, at stake.

I think this is more plausible than them doing a proper search for a General Manager and Mike Hill turned out to somehow be the best choice for the GM Job despite this new organization's efforts to distance themselves from the previous administration in basically every other situation except for the GM position.

Look it's pretty clear that priority #1 was to save as much money as they possibly could for the upcoming season, that was clearly a sprint to the finish. I have been given no indication that the GM search was ever a priority, which just baffles me. The GM should be the single most important person when it comes to the success of an MLB franchise, we've seen it time and time again. We've heard about two thousand rumors involving trades and roster moves since Jeter took over, I don't remember hearing one thing written about possible GM candidates outside of Mike Hill. This pretty much says it all.

[fish16]

I think this is more plausible than them doing a proper search for a General Manager and Mike Hill turned out to somehow be the best choice for the GM Job despite this new organization's efforts to distance themselves from the previous administration in basically every other situation except for the GM position.

Look it's pretty clear that priority #1 was to save as much money as they possibly could for the upcoming season, that was clearly a sprint to the finish. I have been given no indication that the GM search was ever a priority, which just baffles me. The GM should be the single most important person when it comes to the success of an MLB franchise, we've seen it time and time again. We've heard about two thousand rumors involving trades and roster moves since Jeter took over, I don't remember hearing one thing written about possible GM candidates outside of Mike Hill. This pretty much says it all.

Denbo.you dont have to like him or be high on him, but its clear he is a huge part of the plan for the front office. We also hired a guy who is supposed to be huge in the IFA market to help in that arena.

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Also, Mike Hill is still here, but we have hired several new voices in the front office/scouting department as well as let go of a ton of retreads who were part of the previous front office. So our baseball ops department is fairly overhauled for one offseason.

[Nick]

Denbo.you dont have to like him or be high on him, but its clear he is a huge part of the plan for the front office. We also hired a guy who is supposed to be huge in the IFA market to help in that arena.

I don't know a damn thing about Denbo. What I do know is if he is The Guy, then he should have the title. Setting up a fall guy, which is what you have to be suggesting if your argument is that Denbo is the head guy with the final call on all decisions, should not give you confidence in the FO's current plan for the organization. If you're going out making quality moves, and making the team better you don't need a fall guy.

[fish16]

I don't know a damn thing about Denbo. What I do know is if he is The Guy, then he should have the title. Setting up a fall guy, which is what you have to be suggesting if your argument is that Denbo is the head guy with the final call on all decisions, should not give you confidence in the FO's current plan for the organization. If you're going out making quality moves, and making the team better you don't need a fall guy.

You should probably look into Denbo then and stop making emotional arguments about Mike Hill and acting as if because he is still here that we have the same organizational philosophies and front office makeup and group of characters.

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I never said anything about a fall guy. I think Mike Hill is infinitely more qualified than you are making him out to be, even if he has been bad the last few years.

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I know Mike Hill is there still, but other guys that were fired include old school guys Mckeon, Dawson, Perez, and Conine, as well as Delpiano, Berger, McAvoy, and Berger. New guys include Dick Scott, Dan Greenlee, Denbo, Dj Svihlik, among several others. That is plenty of change from the previous front office.

[rmc523]

Not just the straily trade, but the Cashner deal, the obvious at the time stupid Rodney deal, Latos deal, Chen contract, Tazawa and Ziegler deals, etc. Just so many deals where it is clear they gave up the farm/future in win now moves for a team that realistically didnt have a chance

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cant access that site but i wasnt disagreeing with you at all, i was just saying you could get into that place super easily for super cheap and sit wherever. Ive been doing that for marlins games since hard rock stadium.

Yeah, Fernandez crippled the franchise. If he were still here, (some of) those moves could've made more sense, but after that, they just appeared to be band-aids (not saying I think they should've been done either way.

[fish16]

Yeah, Fernandez crippled the franchise. If he were still here, (some of) those moves could've made more sense, but after that, they just appeared to be band-aids (not saying I think they should've been done either way.

ya, there's no question Jose dying set this franchise back at least 5 years. But signing stop gaps like Tazawa, Ziegler, Volquez, and giving Prado that contract made it even worse. Jose still being there would have made at least the Volquez signing make a lot more sense.

[lou]

I think this is more plausible than them doing a proper search for a General Manager and Mike Hill turned out to somehow be the best choice for the GM Job despite this new organization's efforts to distance themselves from the previous administration in basically every other situation except for the GM position.

Look it's pretty clear that priority #1 was to save as much money as they possibly could for the upcoming season, that was clearly a sprint to the finish. I have been given no indication that the GM search was ever a priority, which just baffles me. The GM should be the single most important person when it comes to the success of an MLB franchise, we've seen it time and time again. We've heard about two thousand rumors involving trades and roster moves since Jeter took over, I don't remember hearing one thing written about possible GM candidates outside of Mike Hill. This pretty much says it all.

Well that's the thing, what if a groundbreaking talent acquisition GM isn't a priority today? I'm not saying that isn't a definitive organizational need, but right now, 3 months into a transition, with Mike Hill under presumably a salary making millions of dollars to save that money as you said....... Again, and this is all for the sake of debate and understanding the decision making process (or lack thereof), but if your plan is to trade a few guys.....

-Gordon - None of us are mad at this, Niedert was their best pitcher prospect, they did fine here.

-Stanton - Does anyone think Hill had any input when the Yankees farm guy is now a Marlins employee? This is clearly Denbo's guys.

-Ozuna - Screams Hill/old regime with an all fastball/lower control pitcher, no power/speed and D outfielder, but how do we know this wasn't a team effort with Denbo/whoever?

-Cooper/Smith - Clearly Denbo, his organization, his guys

-RuleV - Does it matter?

-Van Slyke/Ortega/Guerra - Does it matter? Those were all fine MILB deals regardless.

So maybe he fucked up Ozuna? Am I missing a transaction?

It's not like you're drafting tomorrow, fixing your analytics department overnight, or signing major free agents this offseason. It looks like the most action that is going to happen is they trade Yelich, where literally anyone with a pulse would have a hard time messing up that trade as it's a clear "three top 100 prospects plus 2 more guys we like," and then some whatever trades of Straily/Castro/Prado/Tazawa/whoever for depth purposes which you're not going to get premier returns on anyways and Denbo/others can help out there so there is a limited chance of major longterm harm. It's not like Hill fucked up the Ramos or Phelps deals. Fucking up Yelich (and Realmuto) is really the only hypothetical damage the guy can do until the draft in my eyes. A lot of things can change before then. Lucky for him, there is an easy decision - keep them!

There is just so much unknown. I understand their actions do not breed confidence, I'm just saying, there is plenty to complain about, but this is just completely irrelevant to me as of today. I'm sure that opinion will change quickly as we see how things progress. I'm not jumping to conclusions just yet.

[Nick]

You should probably look into Denbo then and stop making emotional arguments about Mike Hill and acting as if because he is still here that we have the same organizational philosophies and front office makeup and group of characters.

Yep, I'm sure you're a Denbo expert based off what you read on his Wikipedia page. And Mike Hill's not a fall guy, but he's also not in charge, so what is he? Advisor with the General Manager job title and paycheck? I find that unlikely.

I don't see why it's so hard to figure out why I would want a GM that has a clear vision for how he wants to re-build this franchise in place when dealing stars like Stanton and Ozuna. I don't think it can be overstated how important these moves were to the future sustainability of this franchise and for the chances of future success. Nobody questions if Billy Beane, Theo Epstein, Brian Cashman are really in charge and if they're calling the shots. I just want some god damn leadership for once with this franchise. We've had jack squat since Dave Dombrowski left.

[fish16]

Yep, I'm sure you're a Denbo expert based off what you read on his Wikipedia page. And Mike Hill's not a fall guy, but he's also not in charge, so what is he? Advisor with the General Manager job title and paycheck? I find that unlikely.

I don't see why it's so hard to figure out why I would want a GM that has a clear vision for how he wants to re-build this franchise in place when dealing stars like Stanton and Ozuna. I don't think it can be overstated how important these moves were to the future sustainability of this franchise and for the chances of future success. Nobody questions if Billy Beane, Theo Epstein, Brian Cashman are really in charge and if they're calling the shots. I just want some god damn leadership for once with this franchise. We've had jack squat since Dave Dombrowski left.

Didnt just read his wikipedia page, but clearly that would be more than what you've done for both him and the rest of the guys we've added and fired.

[flamarlins93]

I hate seeing when people rationalize the moves the Marlins have made so far by saying look at how the Cubs and Astros did it and built themselves back up. There is one major difference. Those teams went on to buy as much international talent as they could. The rules have changed. Clubs can't do that any longer. Both teams drafted really good as well but one major key to their fast rebound was the large quantity of high end international talent. Its great and all to see the Marlins mentioned with the soon to be IFA Martinez but I have a hard time believing they actually land a player of this caliber. Loria loved to have it thrown out there that the team was interested in all the big time Cuban defectors however they always just came up short. I really hope that is not the case here that they aren't just making sure they are being mentioned knowing they honestly have no shot.