2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[lou]

Dude is 5’8” 265 lbs. I have concerns about his durability at 24. 90 games at catcher seems like a lot to ask.

Oh, and I do want to mention, I do think they need to get the best possible player if Pablo is the one being traded. Pablo is obviously very valuable. I'd imagine that is better than something like Kirk or Groshans (I'll leave that up to you who the primary piece is there), but big picture, I think Toronto has multiple pieces that can work.

On a macro level, you can do lots of crazy things with Toronto - like Pablo, Hernandez, AND one of Sixto/Cabrera/Meyer - to really supercharge their staff.

At that point, you can ask for Moreno, Martinez (and they keep Groshans as their 3B of the future), Grichuk (have them throw in money, or not), and probably another prospect in their top 5-15, and more outside top 15. Make them eat Bass and Cooper also for getting 3 play now SP. A lot of options.

The Marlins are set the fuck up with absolute stud longterm C and 3B prospects (Anderson can move anywhere when he's ready) with some other guys (Grichuk, etc.), and the Marlins SP is still awesome with Sandy, Rogers, Luzardo, and two of Sixto/Cabrera/Meyer. I think you'd sign a veteran SP on a 2 year deal to act as your # 3, but they have the money to do that. SP is still deep behind this organizationally (Thompson, Poteet, Neidert, Holloway... and then Nicolas, McCambley, Eder, Fulton, Eury....) and you have a radical bat crew with Moreno, Lewin, Jazz, Martinez, Sanchez, Bleday, and Burdick, and needing a longterm SS and CF (Misner? Scott?). With $$$ to burn this year, and your top prospects are all SS (Watson, Salas, Capps, Nasim, Morisette, Mccants, etc.). Works for the Jays as adding Pablo, Sixto/Cabrera/Meyer, and Hernandez is a massive 400+ inning upgrade, they make under $5m combined and controlled for years, and still has young catchers and a young 3B.

This is the type of HR swings I'd want to take with the pitching trades ultimately, and I'm not worried about trading 2 big ones (Elisier not a big one) if they solve on paper C or CF longterm.

[Nick]

Might as well get crazy with it:

Blue Jays receive:

Pablo Lopez
Max Meyer
Elieser Hernandez
Garrett Cooper
Anthony Bass

Marlins receive:

Gabriel Moreno
Jordan Groshans
Orelvis Martinez
Randall Grichuk
Cavan Biggio

Go out and sign Marte, give him 3 years $60-66 million.

1. Marte CF
2. Jazz 2B
3. Aguilar DH
4. Sanchez RF
5. Anderson 3B
6. Grichuk LF
7. Moreno C
8. Lewin 1B
9. Rojas SS

Bench: Berti, De La Cruz, Biggio, Fortes/Aguilar

Potentially could move Groshans into SS before too long, until Martinez, Salas, Watson are ready then move him to 3B.

[Namaste]

LFG one time

https://twitter.com/jonheyman/status...049286668?s=21

[Nick]

LFG one time

https://twitter.com/jonheyman/status...049286668?s=21

Get it done.

[lou]

Might as well get crazy with it:

Blue Jays receive:

Pablo Lopez
Max Meyer
Elieser Hernandez
Garrett Cooper
Anthony Bass

Marlins receive:

Gabriel Moreno
Jordan Groshans
Orelvis Martinez
Randall Grichuk
Cavan Biggio

Go out and sign Marte, give him 3 years $60-66 million.

1. Marte CF
2. Jazz 2B
3. Aguilar DH
4. Sanchez RF
5. Anderson 3B
6. Grichuk LF
7. Moreno C
8. Lewin 1B
9. Rojas SS

Bench: Berti, De La Cruz, Biggio, Fortes/Aguilar

Potentially could move Groshans into SS before too long, until Martinez, Salas, Watson are ready then move him to 3B.

That's even too crazy for me, but if the basis of a deal is Pablo and one of Sixto/Cabrera/Meyer, with throw-ins (Elisier, Cooper, Bass, etc.), I do not think it is anywhere unreasonable to require Moreno and Martinez coming back. Both of those guys generally line up for a 1-1 trade with Sixto/Cabrera/Meyer ala Gallen/Jazz, so it's just a question of what else is involved. This definitely can work on paper if Toronto loves the arms.

[lou]

LFG one time

https://twitter.com/jonheyman/status...049286668?s=21

I don't want to read into Toronto rumors, but if the Marlins agree to absorb Grichuk (2/$21... and we all know absorbing money for better assets is my thing), and if Toronto Catcher (even if this is Moreno in the summer), Grichuk, and Marte are the "3" major bats they bring in, and Pablo/Hernandez/Cooper/Bass are going out in trades, that's like +$20m in actual dollars to their payroll.

So this is basically a $65-70m team:

Alfaro, Fortes/Toronto (Moreno mid-season)
Aguilar, Lewin
Jazz
Rojas, Berti
Anderson, _____
Sanchez
S. Marte
Grichuk, De La Cruz (Bleday mid-season)

Sandy, Rogers, _____, Luzardo, Sixto/Cabrera (Meyer mid-season)
Bender, Floro, Thompson, Pop, Sixto/Cabrera
Bleier, ______, Okert
AAA - Poteet, Neidert, Garrett, Holloway, everyone Lee likes


Considering Anderson can easily pop out to RF to help OF depth, they could do some major damage with an $80m payroll with a good veteran 2B/3B type, #3/4 SP, and a good pen lefty. Very doable. They'd also have more money to spend picking Cooper over Aguilar.

[Todd]

Sign Bryant, shift Anderson to 2B and Chisholm to SS.

[Nick]

Sign Bryant, shift Anderson to 2B and Chisholm to SS.

Absolutely sign Bryant, but that defensive alignment would be terrible. Sign Bryant and either he or Anderson goes to the OF.

[Todd]

I mostly just want to get Rojas out of the every day lineup.

[Nick]

I mostly just want to get Rojas out of the every day lineup.

Rojas is fine, excellent defensively, and not a blackhole with the bat like Hechavarria was. If you sign Correa/Seager/Story absolutely he goes to the bench, but he's fine as the starter for the next 2 years if you sufficiently upgrade C/CF/Corner OF

[Namaste]

MLB proposes using fWAR to dictate pay. I don’t hate it but no way the Players Union goes for this:

https://twitter.com/ken_rosenthal/st...769209359?s=21

[Todd]

Rojas is fine, excellent defensively, and not a blackhole with the bat like Hechavarria was. If you sign Correa/Seager/Story absolutely he goes to the bench, but he's fine as the starter for the next 2 years if you sufficiently upgrade C/CF/Corner OF

Rojas is very bad offensively. His entire value comes from his glove to the point that if he has an even average defensive season he is a below replacement level player.

[Nick]

Rojas is very bad offensively. His entire value comes from his glove to the point that if he has an even average defensive season he is a below replacement level player.

He was a 2.5-3 WAR player last year and projected to be the same in 2022.

[Todd]

And it was entirely on his defense. He has been a well below average offensive player his entire career. 2021 was also the only year he wasn't a replacement level player.

[lou]

And it was entirely on his defense. He has been a well below average offensive player his entire career. 2021 was also the only year he wasn't a replacement level player.

Rojas has been a pretty good player for 4/5 seasons - 2018 was only dud. Per 600/PA last 5 years:

2017 - 2.7+ WAR
2018 - 1.2+ WAR
2019 - 2+ WAR
2020 - 6.4 WAR (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
2021 - 3+ WAR

(Yes 2020 is sample size and he'd regress to a 2017/2019/2021 level for sure.)

I think it's a bad bet to anticipate 2018 after 3 good years in a row, but you can make that if you want. He has turned himself into a solid starter, but I do agree he'd be an incredible bench player. Best in the league bench player.

Big picture, this isn't a problem. He's projected as the 96th(t) best position player in baseball next year. If he ends up being the Marlins 5th/6th best position player (which could easily happen with Jazz/Sanchez/Bleday breaking out, Anderson being healthy, new bat # 1, new bat # 2, etc.), they are in business.