2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[Lee Stone]

I would open the season with 8 starters on the 28-man, with Cabrera, Meyer and Poteet added to the projected starting five. That leaves room for five or six one-inning guys Okert, Bass, Bender, Head, Bleirer, and maybe Guenther until Floro is ready. Most starters (except Alcantara and Rogers, let's say) are going to be good for just 4-5 innings for the most part. Think Lopez 5 innings and then Meyer for three or four. Elieser for four or five and then Cabrera for three or four. And then Luzardo for five and Poteet for four. I like this much better than trying to throw four of the relievers to finish the games. At least one of them will normally get blasted.

[lou]

I would open the season with 8 starters on the 28-man, with Cabrera, Meyer and Poteet added to the projected starting five. That leaves room for five or six one-inning guys Okert, Bass, Bender, Head, Bleirer, and maybe Guenther until Floro is ready. Most starters (except Alcantara and Rogers, let's say) are going to be good for just 4-5 innings for the most part. Think Lopez 5 innings and then Meyer for three or four. Elieser for four or five and then Cabrera for three or four. And then Luzardo for five and Poteet for four. I like this much better than trying to throw four of the relievers to finish the games. At least one of them will normally get blasted.

This is a weird day - this is a GREAT IDEA. LET'S DO THIS. THROW THE BEST ARMS!!!! This is much easier to do with a DH also.

Two notes - (1) keep Meyer down 2+ weeks and then call him up and get the year of control. That can easily be integrated into this for minimal impact. Call it Neidert/Holloway for 2 weeks. (2) Poteet for 4 IP is probably a little heavy, Let's say 1 time through the lineup, and you can give that extra 1-2 innings cumulatively to everyone else. I think you would be fine with all of this.

Overall season for this would be like

Sandy 200
Rogers 175
Pablo 150
Luzardo 150
Hernandez 125
Cabrera 125
Meyer 125
Poteet 100
Bullpen 300
=1,450 innings

Meaning you are throwing 300 "bullpen" innings, and assuming Floro, Bender, Bleier, Pop, and Okert are 250 of them (that is your top 13 pitchers).... we're giving 50+ innings of revolving garbage time to Head, Guenther, Bass, etc. Hell call it 150 garbage time innings and put Poteet into this category also which is probably fair.

This would be AWESOME. THROW YOUR BEST GUYS. They aren't fucking babies who need to be stretched out in AAA. Win games. Those are perfect innings allotments for everyone.

And then trade for a CF.

[fish16]

not sure why pablo can be counted on to throw 150 innings when he hurts his shoulder every year and his career high in innings is 10 more than cabrera's but cabrera's limit is 125. that's why I find innings limits to be dumb at the beginning of the year. monitor guys as they go and adjust on the fly. Preset innings limits just don't make sense. If you want to give them a range you'd like to stick to, sure, but it just does not make sense to limit guys at the beginning of the year as if every guy should be the same in terms of monitoring innings. There is no reason if cabrera stays healthy that he cant get to 150 between the majors and minors.

[lou]

not sure why pablo can be counted on to throw 150 innings when he hurts his shoulder every year and his career high in innings is 10 more than cabrera's but cabrera's limit is 125. that's why I find innings limits to be dumb at the beginning of the year. monitor guys as they go and adjust on the fly. Preset innings limits just don't make sense. If you want to give them a range you'd like to stick to, sure, but it just does not make sense to limit guys at the beginning of the year as if every guy should be the same in terms of monitoring innings. There is no reason if cabrera stays healthy that he cant get to 150 between the majors and minors.

Because you don't understand how player development and pitching works? I don't know? You have all info attainable but choose to ignore? Pablo is 2 years older than him and the conditioning matters. As well as performance at the MLB level where Pablo's innings are extremely likely less taxing as he has success at getting MLB hitters out. Cabrera is going to have to be folded in to adjust like every prospect. So call Pablo 140 - sure. 140-150 is fine. That's not decimating him with a massive jump and respecting his arm talent/stamina. If Cabrera goes all Fernandez/Rogers, then by all means the innings can tick up a little if there is low stress, but that's likely not going to happen. Jumping Cabrera's innings 50+ is STUPID. There is EVERY reason to not do it. Can't wait to see your takes when Rogers averages less than 6 innings a start but is overall dominating. The answer is going to be, they won't throw him more than 170ish innings as he needs another build up year before he can have no limits like Sandy. These are humans not machines.

[fish16]

Because you don't understand how player development and pitching works? I don't know? You have all info attainable but choose to ignore? Pablo is 2 years older than him and the conditioning matters. As well as performance at the MLB level where Pablo's innings are extremely likely less taxing as he has success at getting MLB hitters out. Cabrera is going to have to be folded in to adjust like every prospect. So call Pablo 140 - sure. 140-150 is fine. That's not decimating him with a massive jump and respecting his arm talent/stamina. If Cabrera goes all Fernandez/Rogers, then by all means the innings can tick up a little if there is low stress, but that's likely not going to happen. Jumping Cabrera's innings 50+ is STUPID. There is EVERY reason to not do it. Can't wait to see your takes when Rogers averages less than 6 innings a start but is overall dominating. The answer is going to be, they won't throw him more than 170ish innings as he needs another build up year before he can have no limits like Sandy. These are humans not machines.

What fucking conditioning? He's literally had the same shoulder injury every year other than the covid shortened season. Pablo's innings are so much less taxing that he continuously has a shoulder issue. Not sure how asking him to increase his innings 40-50 is any different than Cabrera. Both are around 6'4 or 6'5 and 220 pounds. Cabrera has less of an injury history.

Im not saying they are machines, I'm saying having exact pre determined innings limits is a fucking dumb way to develop pitchers as opposed to monitoring them through the season. If anything, it should be pitches thrown, not innings pitched. Pablo is generally super efficient with his pitches so he's not even throwing as many pitches in the number of innings he goes and he still gets hurt every fucking year with the same shoulder injury. Given our pitching depth I would have gotten him out of here for a bat before he inevitably needs that shoulder surgery that is pretty clearly on the horizon at some point in his career.

[Lee Stone]

We're just lucky to have so many healthy starters to begin the season. What I like is that none of them are walking batters thus far ... that's the single biggest key to their success, both in terms of allowing fewer runs and going deeper into games.

[lou]

What fucking conditioning? He's literally had the same shoulder injury every year other than the covid shortened season. Pablo's innings are so much less taxing that he continuously has a shoulder issue. Not sure how asking him to increase his innings 40-50 is any different than Cabrera. Both are around 6'4 or 6'5 and 220 pounds. Cabrera has less of an injury history.

Im not saying they are machines, I'm saying having exact pre determined innings limits is a fucking dumb way to develop pitchers as opposed to monitoring them through the season. If anything, it should be pitches thrown, not innings pitched. Pablo is generally super efficient with his pitches so he's not even throwing as many pitches in the number of innings he goes and he still gets hurt every fucking year with the same shoulder injury. Given our pitching depth I would have gotten him out of here for a bat before he inevitably needs that shoulder surgery that is pretty clearly on the horizon at some point in his career.

He's a 26 year old entering his 10th pro season, not a soon to be 24 year old entering his 7th pro season. This is a big deal and difference when projecting innings. Look at guys like CJ Wilson who just become starters at age 29. They have been in major weight rooms and nutrition programs over a decade so their bodies are physically mature in their prime. This matters more to Cabrera than Pablo right now BIG TIME. He is still transitioning to his core build. Pablo is pretty much there. Big 2 years here. The height/weight don't mean much overall. It's their build. If you think this doesn't matter, you're just wrong. But maybe Cabrera is an outlier athlete freak. Maybe analogize this to high school DT going to major college programs at 300 pounds (playing weight) and they get their butt kicked by lesser prospect seniors because it's not a physically mature weight.

Pablo's innings aren't taxing as he's thrown 330 innings at an above average basically even 4.00 ERA. I think you're reading too hard into when I say 125 IP. It's an approximation, like everything. That's a median projection to keep him out of longterm arm troubles. If he comes out and throws a 2.00 ERA and it's less taxing (lower pitches if you want to say). Sure. That can be reassessed on the fly and is a bonus. If he's throwing high walk, high whip stress innings. It probably goes down.

We agree Pablo could/should have been traded for a CF, but I'll say that about anyone but Sandy and Rogers pretty much (maybe Luzardo as they need lefties).

[lou]

We're just lucky to have so many healthy starters to begin the season. What I like is that none of them are walking batters thus far ... that's the single biggest key to their success, both in terms of allowing fewer runs and going deeper into games.

Yes, they have a ton. And that's with Sixto out, and even Eder who if healthy may be a summer call up. Your P above is perfect. Throw your best guys in waves. If Meyer is one of them, let's contend and let him be a Super 2, and don't worry about 2028 Cabrera service time.

Throwing Yacabonis and Holloway at the MLB level when you want to contend with Cabrera and Meyer in AAA seems insane to me.

[fish16]

i get that yacabonis is a funny name to throw out there but I'm not sure why you are so hung up on him. there is almost no shot he starts the year on the roster. The bullpen is full. The only conceivable way a fringe guy makes it is because of the expanded roster for the first month. Bender, Floro, Bleier, Bass, Pop, Okert, Head, Poteet, and Nance seems like it will be the bullpen, plus I think they add another arm before the season starts to make this a moot point. Plus neidert was sent down but I can see him up very soon and I don't love holloway but they seem to so I think he might make it too.. Ultimately, there are always a few bullpen arms available from teams who run out of space or have a spare part they will deal for a prospect or cash. Bullpen spare arms are the easiest thing to find in the sport.

[Nick]

I think with the added roster you could slot Cabrera 4-5 innings, not necessarily need to start the game and you'd have arms available if things go awry. He pitches probably roughly the same amount of pitches/innings maybe a little less to save his arm for later in the season. Then when the rosters go back to 26 from 28. You go back to a traditional rotation-bullpen setup, and chances are the 5-man rotation will have worked itself out. Or probably worse case scenario you have a very good arm in AAA waiting to be called up.

I get Fish16's concern about not wanting Cabrera up here pitching an inning at a time, I do think it's a disservice to him, but I also see lou's point about using your best guys. I'd just like to see the club get a little creative with their abundance of pitching talent.

[Namaste]

Throwing Yacabonis and Holloway at the MLB level when you want to contend with Cabrera and Meyer in AAA seems insane to me.

They’re totally gonna start Yaca and Holloway at the MLB level and I blame Mattingly.

[fish16]

I think with the added roster you could slot Cabrera 4-5 innings, not necessarily need to start the game and you'd have arms available if things go awry. He pitches probably roughly the same amount of pitches/innings maybe a little less to save his arm for later in the season. Then when the rosters go back to 26 from 28. You go back to a traditional rotation-bullpen setup, and chances are the 5-man rotation will have worked itself out. Or probably worse case scenario you have a very good arm in AAA waiting to be called up.

I get Fish16's concern about not wanting Cabrera up here pitching an inning at a time, I do think it's a disservice to him, but I also see lou's point about using your best guys. I'd just like to see the club get a little creative with their abundance of pitching talent.

this is a middle ground I can get behind. BTW I totally get and understand lou's point, we just differ as to how to transition cabrera from his position now to his eventual spot in the rotation hopefully for years to come. If they can figure out a way to maybe say stack him with Hernandez so he's getting a starter's workload or something close to it ill be all for it. I just don't want to see him pitching 40-50 innings, 1-2 innings at a time, over 3 months out of the bullpen as opposed to letting him build up his innings as a starter in AAA and getting that work facing more developed hitters 2,3, and 4 times a game. That's what separates a future reliever from a future starter, and id just rather get him that experience at the minor league level and hopefully getting another year of team control for his prime than wasting a year of his future prime for 3 months of relief outings.

I agree with Namaste though, if there's one thing I don't trust in this situation, it's don Mattingly finding a way to creatively balance cabrera developing for the future while on the major league roster. I find Mattingly to be a terrible manager and I'm super annoyed they brought him back for yet another year of his mismanagement. He is a great bench coach, but he's a terrible manager, at least as far as in game decision making goes.

[lou]

If they can figure out a way to maybe say stack him with Hernandez so he's getting a starter's workload or something close to it ill be all for it. I just don't want to see him pitching 40-50 innings, 1-2 innings at a time, over 3 months out of the bullpen as opposed to letting him build up his innings as a starter in AAA and getting that work facing more developed hitters 2,3, and 4 times a game. That's what separates a future reliever from a future starter, and id just rather get him that experience at the minor league level and hopefully getting another year of team control for his prime than wasting a year of his future prime for 3 months of relief outings.

I agree with Namaste though, if there's one thing I don't trust in this situation, it's don Mattingly finding a way to creatively balance cabrera developing for the future while on the major league roster. I find Mattingly to be a terrible manager and I'm super annoyed they brought him back for yet another year of his mismanagement. He is a great bench coach, but he's a terrible manager, at least as far as in game decision making goes.

Getting major league hitters out if you can do it > 3rd time through the lineup in AAA. Regardless, YES YES YES THIS IS MY POINT. Throw Hernandez and Cabrera a combined 250 IP, and figure out how those innings lie. The smart thing to do is have Hernandez open as the 5, and more slowly bring Cabrera out of the bullpen. This could even be average 2 IP appearances for April/May and add an inning per month thereafter. The math easily works out. Cabrera will be ready to go for 30 starts/150+ IP next year. Easily.

[lou]

What I came here for is - Anderson playing CF

[Nick]

Surprised we haven't heard anything on trying Jazz in CF. Speed-wise he seems to make the most sense. You have Wendle on the roster who can take over 2B.