2024 Game Thread

[lou]

Awesome, idc what he is at DH, he is a 2.5-3.5 WAR player at 2b, he is 27, and he has the best plate discipline in baseball. Every single projection for the rest of the season on fangraphs would still put him at a 3 WAR player despite the slower start and the subpar defense. He is a really good player on a team with 0 hitting and no long term contracts of significance. There is 0 excuse for why they couldnt come to an agreement. You say he wouldnt take it. Again, THEY DID NOT TRY. He is not going to get a big enough contract where it made sense to trade him for 3 non top prospects who wont make an impact at all in the window that this pitching could have given us. It is a nonsensical, loser move for a nonsensical loser franchise.

We can disagree on the exact price point and we will see what he ends up getting, but to say that 20-30 million over 5 years puts it over the top is just such garbage. If that amount of money for a team with almost nothing in long term salaries breaks the bank, the franchise should fold. That is pathetic. 6 million a year is not a significant amount of money to trade your best player for 3 non impact prospects, the best of which is nowhere near the major leagues, when you have a window with the pitching that they could have worked with.

You say there is a price tied to the unknown, but there is also a ton of value in getting locked in on a contract at a known price as opposed to waiting another year and a half where god knows what can happen to him or his production. Kind of like how most teams are now getting in early on signing up their young guys and their young guys being ok with it because they weigh the pros and cons of an inherently unpredictable sport. You continue to make these large sweeping generalizations about the situation without ever acknowledging that they made 0 effort to even try to sign him. 0. So while you continue to make the same posts over and over and over with some serious smugness despite being consistently wrong and never ever looking back to acknowledge how consistently wrong you are, you have no idea what the fuck he will take because the marlins made 0 effort to sign him, because they are not a serious franchise whose priority is winning, and fans are done with that shit.

If they at least made an effort and he says no, i want 8 years 140 million, sure it makes sense to trade him. But they never made an attempt.

You don't get baseball contracts, nor my positions on things. You're just angry and this is your outlet.

Substance wise, Arraez today would expect a long term deal buying out his entire prime. Next year is 28 (call it $14m in arb), so that's at least 4 more for ages 29-32, and he'll push real hard for 33. It's taking away his one shot at "prime" free agency signing him. He's not going to do a short term 2 year deal and push FA away. It would never happen. Maybe some team would blow him away for the OBP in FA? We don't know. Guys like Nimmo and Springer are signing $150m extensions you know and they are recent. Neither of us knows. Which is why the valuation in a deal *today* starts at 5/$100m or 6/$110m range. That's getting him at a $19-22m valuation or so per year. He'd probably get more year to year if performing. That gets to the level where he wouldn't be giving up too much in FA as it's still a shitload of money. They could have signed him for easily $20-30m less than that and secured some free agency years at the time they got him. They didn't do it. It was a Kim failure. I also do think 8/$140m you mention is something he would take but getting really scary with him in mid 30s and he's a singles hitter. How is he going to age? I'd only be comfortable at 5 today. 8 years is waaaay too long for Arraez. Hopefully they did offer him say 5/$80m before they traded him as that would be the team friendly discount, but who knows. I doubt they did, but he'd also never take it as it's not enough. Ozzie Albies is a unicorn when it comes to guys selling themselves that short. But that's the right price for the Marlins with payrolls south of $100m. He's still just a DH and they can't have that payroll for a non-defender they can fill easier.

Per the price of the unknown, Arraez has $19m career earnings and even if he has season ending injury today will be tendered at $11m minimum next year. He's got $30m basically. He's set for life. He's not taking a discount like someone like Eury Perez would take to set themselves up forever. He's already got $30m once 2025 kicks in and its effectively guaranteed as he won't be non-tendered. You're talking about unpredictability, well Arraez has a big house forever and no worries today. Why would he sell himself short right now taking a discount in anticipating the market may be dry for him in 2 years? This is why you sign guys with 0-3, maybe 4 years of service time before the season starts and go through arbitration. It's too late for Arraez. It's too late for Luzardo because he already scaled up as a S2 and pitching is in demand. It's almost too late on Jazz. It's a perfect time for Cabrera (if he rebounds of course). I'm a huge fan of arbitration buy outs and would love them to do them with the right players????

And I said the first day they should have signed him, and continually say every day Bruce sucks so what is this never acknowledge them not trying to sign him? I wanted them to sign him, and I've said 1,000 times they messed up here. What is happening here? We agree Bruce is terrible? Why are you yelling at me over a point we agree with?

[fish16]

First, I guess I am not the only one who writes 9 paragraph soliloquies eh? This is a lot of content for someone who is never posting again and doesn't care!

Second, I have no idea what their plan is, so your deluding comments are wrong.

Third, I don't disagree with you have have little to no expectation about Bruce spending money? I've been on the Bruce selling bandwagon -much longer- than you whether you realize that or not.

Fourth, I understand the fans are done with this owner, as they genuinely should be after a terrible offseason you said was OK where all of us here were rolling our eyes at you. So your comment about not realizing what means nothing more than you are yelling into the air at this point?

Fifth, Jazz is a 3.12 WAR per 600 PA player for his career. Arraez is 2.69 WAR per 600 PA. Since the start of 2022, i.e. when Arraez ticked up, Arraez is 2.91. This year Jazz is a 1.2 WAR and Arraez .7. So Jazz is better. Health is the only issue here. Maybe you should not be an old timer moneyball scout and just look at 1 piece of what Arraez does and look at the full picture.

Sixth, Burger is a building block. He is a decent enough player, cheap, and under control. You nailed it. That's what this team needs. It has Jazz, and can fill out the bottom of the roster with decent enough players, who are cheap, and under control. They obviously need to upper half of the roster, but don't kid yourself that filling out the bottom of the roster with good club controlled players isn't very helpful in the world the ENTIRE STAFF is figured out. That's the issue with you, it is very clear that you are emotionally charged after years of predicting 88 wins and then not realizing the team has 20+ spots figured out, but yes the last ones are -very- important.

Seventh, again, I have no idea what their plan is for 2025. But I am glad you are confident they are going to tear down further than Luzardo/Scott. Why are you angry at me here again about not being nostradamus? We all don't have to take black and white stances in life and everything is not an argument as your youth hasn't taught you yet. My gut is they probably won't do much more than Luzardo/Scott/FA guys trade wise, but then likely not spend to where they need to go and try and get lucky into contention. A tear down, i.e. trading Sandy, would be surprising to me. Saying they will be bad until 2027 is simply being dramatic with this pitching they have. You are dissapointed by the team opening 0-11 and otherwise sucking and this is a knee jerk reaction. The same way it was a knee jerk reaction predicting 88 wins and getting excited Brinson was arriving those 3 weeks he was hitting. Maybe they tear it all down, but they have the ability - in house - to have a top 5-10 pitching staff next year and spending less money on all 13 guys then Blake Snell. That alone is very suggestive to me this isn't a full rebuild. But we shall see. Maybe stop taking anger pills? Why are you such a troll and so god damn angry about any of this?

I never said they had a good offseason. i said that adding Michael Fucking Lorenzon and Amed Rosario and the same mediocre players you tout every offseason is not making a difference when the vast majority of their pitching staff is out for the year. Michael Lorenzon has a 4.47 XFIP and every single projection system has him at less than 1 WAR total all year. Same with Amed Rosario and his 1.0 WAR pace. Same with Michael A Taylor who you tout every offseason and his 53 WRC+ so far this year. At no point did i say it was a good offseason, I said this team has 0 shot of competing this year once they had the pitching injuries and that being upset and bitching nonstop about not signing these mediocre veterans is a waste of time. Considering we were 17 fucking games under .500 before the end of April, i was correct.

That's super awesome that Jazz puts up theoretical good numbers when you extrapolate his WAR out to 600 PA's, which he has never ever come close to. In his career he has had 507, 241, 383, and 210 PA's so far this year. He has played 100 games 1 time. And these arent freak injuries. He isnt getting unlucky, he is a reckless player who can't be relied on to stay healthy or hit lefties. He doesnt really have much in his game that is elite. Obviously i like jazz, he's not a bad player by any means, but health matters. Also, you talk about the whole picture. What is the whole picture with Jazz? He has decent but not spectacular power. He has terrible plate discipline. He cant hit lefties, he is below average in CF according to fangraphs this year, he doesnt walk, he doesnt hit for average. He gets touted as this spectacular player as if he doesnt have a sub .250 average for his career, .308 OBP, .756 OPS, 28.4% K rate, 105 WRC+. Compare that to Arraez and his career .326 average, .379 OBP, .804 OPS, 124 WRC+, 5.9% K rate.

Also, baseball reference has Arraez as a higher WAR even so far this year compared to Jazz, which speaks to the complete unreliability of WAR as a whole if one measure of the stat has him at 1.2 and the other has him at .7 in such a small sample size., but that's a conversation for another day. Using the baseball reference number, Arraez is 3.975 WAR per 600 PA's. BBall reference has arraez at 15.9 WAR for his career whereas fangraphs has him at 10.9, which is part of the reason why i think using it as the end all be all like you do is dumb. Reference has Arraez at 3.9 WAR per 162 games and Jazz at 3.1 per 162 games.

If you want to consider Burger a building block, then we have different definitions of building blocks. Which is fine.

I also dont think i projected 88 wins this year, i think i was anywhere between 79-83, with the 88 number being on the extreme high end if everything went right. Once Eury went down as well as Cabrera and Garrett to start the year, this year was lost.

And of course the back end of the roster is important, but if you're talking about the backend of the roster when you have 6 fucking spots to fill with impact talents, you have a truly awful roster. This team is exactly where it was 2 years ago when we had pablo and a terrible lineup. This time it's Luzardo as the trade piece.

[lou]

Arraez is gone, let's move on.

Second

[sports24/7]

I don’t want to jinx it, but luckily Luzardo and Scott appear to be rehabilitating their stocks. I wonder at what point they’ll be traded. It’s weird because they’ll probably get the best offers at the deadline, but they should get more now as those teams would get them for longer. If a good deal comes along, I would think Bendix would and should jump at it, though, both because he showed he’s willing to, and you don’t want their stiock to fall with some bad outings.

Interestingly Jim Bowden discussed a hypothetical deal with LA for Scott headlined by Cartaya (Kyle Hurt and Jose Ramos were the other two going to Miami), which despite his stock dipping a bit, feels like a really nice return. Bowden said it was an overpay, but said the Dodgers may be willing to do that.

EDIT: Looking at Cartaya’s stats over the past two years, maybe not.

[fish16]

I don’t want to jinx it, but luckily Luzardo and Scott appear to be rehabilitating their stocks. I wonder at what point they’ll be traded. It’s weird because they’ll probably get the best offers at the deadline, but they should get more now as those teams would get them for longer. If a good deal comes along, I would think Bendix would and should jump at it, though, both because he showed he’s willing to, and you don’t want their stiock to fall with some bad outings.

Interestingly Jim Bowden discussed a hypothetical deal with LA for Scott headlined by Cartaya (Kyle Hurt and Jose Ramos were the other two going to Miami), which despite his stock dipping a bit, feels like a really nice return. Bowden said it was an overpay, but said the Dodgers may be willing to do that.

the dodgers are the most no brainer fit for Scott. They desperately need another lefty arm. Cartaya plus another prospect makes too much sense.

[Namaste]

Looks like Cartaya's BABIP cratered the last 2 seasons. Or maybe it was just the move to AA

[fish16]

Arraez 3-3 today. 8th straight multi hit game. Up to .340 for the year with a .822 ops. Head is in low a ball and has played 3 games. Martorella has a .496 ops and marsee has a sub .350 slugging percentage. But at least Keith law doesn’t hate the trade

[rmc523]

Second

Third

[rmc523]

Arraez 3-3 today. 8th straight multi hit game. Up to .340 for the year with a .822 ops. Head is in low a ball and has played 3 games. Martorella has a .496 ops and marsee has a sub .350 slugging percentage. But at least Keith law doesn’t hate the trade

Who cares. We can’t undo it. Move on.

[lou]

I don’t want to jinx it, but luckily Luzardo and Scott appear to be rehabilitating their stocks. I wonder at what point they’ll be traded. It’s weird because they’ll probably get the best offers at the deadline, but they should get more now as those teams would get them for longer. If a good deal comes along, I would think Bendix would and should jump at it, though, both because he showed he’s willing to, and you don’t want their stiock to fall with some bad outings.

Interestingly Jim Bowden discussed a hypothetical deal with LA for Scott headlined by Cartaya (Kyle Hurt and Jose Ramos were the other two going to Miami), which despite his stock dipping a bit, feels like a really nice return. Bowden said it was an overpay, but said the Dodgers may be willing to do that.

EDIT: Looking at Cartaya’s stats over the past two years, maybe not.

I posted this before Fish16's latest tantrum, but Luzardo FB velocity is down. I don't think teams are buying him where he should be bought until they see that velocity recover. Unless he just does this for 2 months then it doesn't matter if this is what he is now and still murdering people with secondaries. I think this will be fine here, but the second they get good value they should move him.

If they get Hurt, Cartaya, and a warm body for Scott that would be an incredible trade for sure. FG kept Hurt and Cartaya as FV50 top 100 prospects (which is actually top 107 and they are 104 and 106). They can sit on Cartaya for 2 years and Hurt will be on the staff quickly, allowing them to trade a second major pitcher in addition to Luzardo for more bats. We can only hope Scott brings that back.

[lou]

I never said they had a good offseason. i said that adding Michael Fucking Lorenzon and Amed Rosario and the same mediocre players you tout every offseason is not making a difference when the vast majority of their pitching staff is out for the year. Michael Lorenzon has a 4.47 XFIP and every single projection system has him at less than 1 WAR total all year. Same with Amed Rosario and his 1.0 WAR pace. Same with Michael A Taylor who you tout every offseason and his 53 WRC+ so far this year. At no point did i say it was a good offseason, I said this team has 0 shot of competing this year once they had the pitching injuries and that being upset and bitching nonstop about not signing these mediocre veterans is a waste of time. Considering we were 17 fucking games under .500 before the end of April, i was correct.

That's super awesome that Jazz puts up theoretical good numbers when you extrapolate his WAR out to 600 PA's, which he has never ever come close to. In his career he has had 507, 241, 383, and 210 PA's so far this year. He has played 100 games 1 time. And these arent freak injuries. He isnt getting unlucky, he is a reckless player who can't be relied on to stay healthy or hit lefties. He doesnt really have much in his game that is elite. Obviously i like jazz, he's not a bad player by any means, but health matters. Also, you talk about the whole picture. What is the whole picture with Jazz? He has decent but not spectacular power. He has terrible plate discipline. He cant hit lefties, he is below average in CF according to fangraphs this year, he doesnt walk, he doesnt hit for average. He gets touted as this spectacular player as if he doesnt have a sub .250 average for his career, .308 OBP, .756 OPS, 28.4% K rate, 105 WRC+. Compare that to Arraez and his career .326 average, .379 OBP, .804 OPS, 124 WRC+, 5.9% K rate.

Also, baseball reference has Arraez as a higher WAR even so far this year compared to Jazz, which speaks to the complete unreliability of WAR as a whole if one measure of the stat has him at 1.2 and the other has him at .7 in such a small sample size., but that's a conversation for another day. Using the baseball reference number, Arraez is 3.975 WAR per 600 PA's. BBall reference has arraez at 15.9 WAR for his career whereas fangraphs has him at 10.9, which is part of the reason why i think using it as the end all be all like you do is dumb. Reference has Arraez at 3.9 WAR per 162 games and Jazz at 3.1 per 162 games.

If you want to consider Burger a building block, then we have different definitions of building blocks. Which is fine.

I also dont think i projected 88 wins this year, i think i was anywhere between 79-83, with the 88 number being on the extreme high end if everything went right. Once Eury went down as well as Cabrera and Garrett to start the year, this year was lost.

And of course the back end of the roster is important, but if you're talking about the backend of the roster when you have 6 fucking spots to fill with impact talents, you have a truly awful roster. This team is exactly where it was 2 years ago when we had pablo and a terrible lineup. This time it's Luzardo as the trade piece.

Culture mattered to you post-Arraez, but didn't matter to you pre-Arraez and the Lorenzens/Rosarios/Taylors are culture moves. You can't have it both ways and complain about a bad culture, but proudly approve of a wide variety of non-transactions that yes, would not have made them contenders and no one said they would, but would have helped the younger players develop plus foster a culture where Tim Anderson isn't the marquee addition. That's why the offseason was a failure and you didn't see it, and now have knee jerked to the other end of the spectrum because you really like Arraez.

Jazz's actual production is that divided by 600 PA. You know, a full season how to compare players. It's a full stop Jazz is better than Arraez when he is on the field, but for, Arraez is much healthier so potentially more valuable as you can count on him being upright. List all the stats you want, Jazz is better than him. Arraez is that bad of a defender. I think FG does a better job with their formula/reliance on statcast, but maybe BR is better as there may be some credibility to that. So at minimum here if we weigh the two equally, Arraez may be .4 a year better than Jazz which is a fair argument as they are both really good, but Arraez now costs 4x the price in salary, so back to.... Jazz is better based on contract situation too ($7m+ cheaper), with the health footnote still there which is the only thing holding him back. Also, this is a sports message board as has been explained before and I get yelled at by you for typing too much, but then when one tries to reduce value to quick to digestable numbers (WAR, OPS, etc.) to talk on said message board, there is feedback we can't reduce things to a single point as there are more things in play and that's dumb. It's never been the end all be all. This is a textual message board. If you want less content, embrace the WAR.

Yes Burger is a "building block" in the same sense as Faucher is. They are perfectly acceptable MLB players even if they likely will never be stars. For their prices, they make sense, thus only X more players to go to build around them. We all agree they need 3-5 foundational pieces to move from suck to good. Foundation is Coby Mayo, Willy Adames, maybe Danny Jansen (Todd don't look at his stats!!!!!!!), etc. We also all agree none are coming from the farm system absent Berry being able to sneak in aluminum bats. Luzardo will get at least 1 more than likely, and all roads lead back to this - what's Bruce gonna do to get the 2-4 more. And that's with no one new getting hurt. Bendorx will have to be a genie if payroll is $75m next year. And you didn't say 88 wins this year, it was .500 or just above. 88 was from 1-2 years ago and it was insane. That being said, expecting 82-83 wins from this team w/ Eury was a bit much. They dropped the ball. It is Bruce cheapness, Bendorx arrogance, or worse, both.

[fish16]

You know what builds culture more than signing this years version of granderson, Neil walker, maybin, ichiro, etc to improve a 68 win team to a 70 win team while blocking young players from getting playing time? Signing your best players to long term deals and rewarding them for outstanding performance and stopping the trend of continuously trading any player who gets reasonably expensive due to good performance which will in turn allow you to start building a consistent winner, which is what actually builds a good overall culture. Especially when you have a window for contention with our pitching next year and absolutely nothing in the lineup.

trading him for 3 non top prospects nowhere near major league ready is a joke.

[Todd]

Will 16 and lou just fuck and get it over with? Just hate bone the shit out of eachother.

[lou]

You know what builds culture more than signing this years version of granderson, Neil walker, maybin, ichiro, etc to improve a 68 win team to a 70 win team while blocking young players from getting playing time? Signing your best players to long term deals and rewarding them for outstanding performance and stopping the trend of continuously trading any player who gets reasonably expensive due to good performance which will in turn allow you to start building a consistent winner, which is what actually builds a good overall culture. Especially when you have a window for contention with our pitching next year and absolutely nothing in the lineup.

trading him for 3 non top prospects nowhere near major league ready is a joke.

For someone who criticizes me for alleged redundant posts, I respectfully submit you do this way more whenever something grinds your gear. And this is after multiple people here (i.e. everyone) are telling you to cool it. You're projecting because you are angry the team is so bad. We understand you really hate the Arraez deal. We get it. Bottle your emotions into something else. Just hope D. Head works out down the line (as they do believe he is a top prospect even if we disagree). We all agree with you and hate Bruce Sherman. We are all much closer aligned than what you perceive here. We can all exist without the constant pestering, trolling, and arguing. I believe in you. You can chill out.

Also, everyone here wants them to do the bold. Everyone. But again, those contracts have to be at opportune times to get value in deals versus the risk of a Scott Kingery happening. The ship sailed with Arraez and Luzardo. You are just signing them to FA deals at this point as it is too close to FA/they have made fuck you money already, and that's likely a bad investment - especially for a cheap owner team. If they were to sign those two, Sandy, Arraez, Luzardo, Avisail Garcia, and Giancarlo Stanton (yes Stanton) would cumulatively cost $65-70m in 2026. For 3 roster spots. Take away Luzardo and that drops to a low $50m for 2 players because Stanton/Garcia is $15m in dead money. Their team payroll is $92m give or take this year. If they keep those three, have 20 other club controlled pre-arbitration players, payroll moves to $80-85m needing 3 roster spots left. How are they going to function like this as there would only be budget remaining for frankly Jazz and two of Burger/Garrett/Cabrera/Weathers, and would need to move others? Maybe Bruce raises payroll which yes is a solution and he should? Again, we all agree Bruce sucks and that he is the core problem. But if they are going to operate around this payroll, you have to do these deals earlier so they can save $5-8m per deal on AAV salaries which frankly, getting an extra $10-15m per year to play with just be signing Arrarez and Luzardo earlier in that scenario above would let you keep all of Burger/Garrett/Cabrera/Weathers and others like Bender and Puk. This is why Kim *really* fucked up with Arraez not signing him immediately, and they should have broached Luzardo at worst mid-season last year. You 100% get all of this but felt it was important to type out that yes, we all understand none of this should be a thing because Bruce sucks. You seem to be harping on that and we all agree - he needs to spend bottom 20 money ($130m) or he shouldn't own a team. We all agree. We all agree. We all agree. It's always Bruce. All roads lead to the problem being Bruce and not whatever squabbling you want to pick with me, or scaring Lee away, or whatever.

So what can they do to address the nothing in the lineup comment? My best speculation is drumroll, this for $60-65m. And I find this team intriguing because the pitching could be something. I can say something nice about everyone listed below besides Fortes. There is no need to yell and scream at sports message board speculation that hey, maybe something like this is the plan.

C - ____, ____/Fortes
1B - Burger
2B - Edwards, ___/Otto/Bride
SS - _______, ___/Brujan
3B - ______ ____/Bride
LF - Sanchez, DLC
CF - Jazz
RF - ________
(AAA/AA - Banfield, Mack, Martorella, Cappe, Dane, VMJR, Marsee, Sasaki)

SP - Sandy, Garrett, Cabrera, Max, Weathers/Rogers
RHP - Bender, Faucher, Go, Hoeing, Sixto/Maldonado/Cronin
LHP - Puk, Nardi, Weathers/Rogers

+ Eury
+ Luzardo return
+ Scott return
+ Maybe they dip into Noble/White and trade for a now player
+ All money spent over $60-65m (payroll has been $79-110m the last 3 years so a big range of what Bruce may do)
+ Berry (jokes)


Maybe you are right and Jazz is moved, which then means Sandy is coming next and 2026 is in fact circled, but I think that team above can contend. It is a lot of blank lines positionally, but Luzardo/Scott/Money/Perhaps other trades/Perhaps some of those AA/AAA guys work out, is a lot of darts to throw at the board with a borderline elite staff the second Eury is back. Get Coby Mayo (who is injured and not helping them this year) and Connor Norby for Luzardo and Scott, and sign Willy Adames and Danny Jansen, and payroll is at this year's level and those guys have 9.2 WAR zips projections for 2025. They probably need 12-15 WAR so that isn't enough, but would have room for another bat if Bruce says $110m (2023 payroll) is OK + you bank on some breakouts with Jazz, Cabrera, Max, and Eury coming back, and Sanchez/DLC finally getting their statcast regression slashes, or Edwards becoming a poor man's Arraez, etc.

I'm interested in seeing if they do this and commit to trying to field a competent roster. If they sell off more and it doesn't make sense, it will be difficult to keep following this team for sure. If you're already gone, then feel free to go away. I just want to see what is going to happen and if this offseason was first offseason jitters or not with the new FO. Frankly, the team above will work if they do a good Luzardo/Scott trade and spend like 2023. But whatevs.

Have some beers and enjoy the weekend. Go Panthers.

[rmc523]

For someone who criticizes me for alleged redundant posts, I respectfully submit you do this way more whenever something grinds your gear. And this is after multiple people here (i.e. everyone) are telling you to cool it. You're projecting because you are angry the team is so bad. We understand you really hate the Arraez deal. We get it. Bottle your emotions into something else. Just hope D. Head works out down the line (as they do believe he is a top prospect even if we disagree). We all agree with you and hate Bruce Sherman. We are all much closer aligned than what you perceive here. We can all exist without the constant pestering, trolling, and arguing. I believe in you. You can chill out.

Also, everyone here wants them to do the bold. Everyone. But again, those contracts have to be at opportune times to get value in deals versus the risk of a Scott Kingery happening. The ship sailed with Arraez and Luzardo. You are just signing them to FA deals at this point as it is too close to FA/they have made fuck you money already, and that's likely a bad investment - especially for a cheap owner team. If they were to sign those two, Sandy, Arraez, Luzardo, Avisail Garcia, and Giancarlo Stanton (yes Stanton) would cumulatively cost $65-70m in 2026. For 3 roster spots. Take away Luzardo and that drops to a low $50m for 2 players because Stanton/Garcia is $15m in dead money. Their team payroll is $92m give or take this year. If they keep those three, have 20 other club controlled pre-arbitration players, payroll moves to $80-85m needing 3 roster spots left. How are they going to function like this as there would only be budget remaining for frankly Jazz and two of Burger/Garrett/Cabrera/Weathers, and would need to move others? Maybe Bruce raises payroll which yes is a solution and he should? Again, we all agree Bruce sucks and that he is the core problem. But if they are going to operate around this payroll, you have to do these deals earlier so they can save $5-8m per deal on AAV salaries which frankly, getting an extra $10-15m per year to play with just be signing Arrarez and Luzardo earlier in that scenario above would let you keep all of Burger/Garrett/Cabrera/Weathers and others like Bender and Puk. This is why Kim *really* fucked up with Arraez not signing him immediately, and they should have broached Luzardo at worst mid-season last year. You 100% get all of this but felt it was important to type out that yes, we all understand none of this should be a thing because Bruce sucks. You seem to be harping on that and we all agree - he needs to spend bottom 20 money ($130m) or he shouldn't own a team. We all agree. We all agree. We all agree. It's always Bruce. All roads lead to the problem being Bruce and not whatever squabbling you want to pick with me, or scaring Lee away, or whatever.

So what can they do to address the nothing in the lineup comment? My best speculation is drumroll, this for $60-65m. And I find this team intriguing because the pitching could be something. I can say something nice about everyone listed below besides Fortes. There is no need to yell and scream at sports message board speculation that hey, maybe something like this is the plan.

C - ____, ____/Fortes
1B - Burger
2B - Edwards, ___/Otto/Bride
SS - _______, ___/Brujan
3B - ______ ____/Bride
LF - Sanchez, DLC
CF - Jazz
RF - ________
(AAA/AA - Banfield, Mack, Martorella, Cappe, Dane, VMJR, Marsee, Sasaki)

SP - Sandy, Garrett, Cabrera, Max, Weathers/Rogers
RHP - Bender, Faucher, Go, Hoeing, Sixto/Maldonado/Cronin
LHP - Puk, Nardi, Weathers/Rogers

+ Eury
+ Luzardo return
+ Scott return
+ Maybe they dip into Noble/White and trade for a now player
+ All money spent over $60-65m (payroll has been $79-110m the last 3 years so a big range of what Bruce may do)
+ Berry (jokes)


Maybe you are right and Jazz is moved, which then means Sandy is coming next and 2026 is in fact circled, but I think that team above can contend. It is a lot of blank lines positionally, but Luzardo/Scott/Money/Perhaps other trades/Perhaps some of those AA/AAA guys work out, is a lot of darts to throw at the board with a borderline elite staff the second Eury is back. Get Coby Mayo (who is injured and not helping them this year) and Connor Norby for Luzardo and Scott, and sign Willy Adames and Danny Jansen, and payroll is at this year's level and those guys have 9.2 WAR zips projections for 2025. They probably need 12-15 WAR so that isn't enough, but would have room for another bat if Bruce says $110m (2023 payroll) is OK + you bank on some breakouts with Jazz, Cabrera, Max, and Eury coming back, and Sanchez/DLC finally getting their statcast regression slashes, or Edwards becoming a poor man's Arraez, etc.

I'm interested in seeing if they do this and commit to trying to field a competent roster. If they sell off more and it doesn't make sense, it will be difficult to keep following this team for sure. If you're already gone, then feel free to go away. I just want to see what is going to happen and if this offseason was first offseason jitters or not with the new FO. Frankly, the team above will work if they do a good Luzardo/Scott trade and spend like 2023. But whatevs.

Have some beers and enjoy the weekend. Go Panthers.

You complain about his endless posts on the matter and then still keep responding to it and continue the argument. Just ignore it.


ARRAEZ IS GONE. NO POINT IN TRYING TO REVISE HISTORY. WHO CARES ABOUT THE EXTENSION WE DIDNT GIVE HIM AT THIS POINT. MOVE ON.