2023 Game Thread

[rmc523]

Eury is not a factor - it's an excuse trying to rationalize how a team with a negative run differential is doing so bad all of a sudden. Which doesn't make any sense because of said negative run differential. They were getting really lucky with the 1 run games for 2+ months. Occam's razor. I have literally been saying this was coming since mid-May and why they should have blown away the Nationals (Candelario, Thomas, Harvey) or Rockies (McMahon, E. Diaz, Grichuk) for a package in June to help mitigate against this well in advance. But they either wouldn't pay the price (bad), didn't anticipate this (very bad), or was not feasible as the Nationals, Rockies, and others clung on to slim hope they might have a large June. Hopefully it is the later here (I don't buy it, you can always make the juice worth the squeeze), which then goes back to.... SS/Nimmo in the offseason and the problem is and is always Bruce. The deadline trades were very solid, even if arguably one more big bat should have been obtained for SS or C.

There have been some strange bullpen moves for sure, and that terrible Robertson deflater, but ultimately they still can't hit so it's difficult to pin the impact on just Skip here. He should be better though with how the arms are being used. I do think this will level off with a healthy Jazz and more consistency from Bell and Burger playing everyday - plus the unanimous just call up Edwards - but this team is a good not great team and we will see if Bruce invests in the offseason as generally, they are taking a big step forward this year even if still a ways to go. But they can still surprise. If they can go .500 here on out in August, they will control their destiny in September with many games against the Brewers and Phillies, and god-willingly some cupcake Mets and Pirates games.

I won't comment further on it, because there's no point of an endless back and forth about it. But just because you can't put a statistic/number on something doesn't mean it's not A factor. Again, by no means am I saying optioning Eury is THE ONLY reason things aren't going well. It's A factor.

Let's say you were on a team that was playing well, and then they just decided to take your best performing starter out for a few weeks for a non-injury reason (an injury is different). You're legitimately saying that that would not have a psychological impact on you and your teammates that winds up spilling over into performance whether intentional or not? Ok....

[lou]

I’ve completed a through evaluation of our remaining schedule and have identified a small window of opportunity around September 18th when we might, with some luck, pick up our next win.

Losing 7 to the Nationals in between would be something!

They will probably do something stupid like win their next 6, then lose their next 5 and the sky is falling again, then go 2-4 on their west coast trip and we'll feel lucky about that, then go on a 12-7 bender with DLC, Soler, Burger, and Jazz hitting 25 HR against the Nationals in 7 games and Sandy pitching two shut outs in other games, then lose their next 3 to Atlanta by a combined score of 32 runs to 7 (two shut outs and an 8-7 loss in the other one of course with a blown save), and then be faced with the reality of having to win 8-9+ of their last 12 games to get in. But that's Milwaukee (home), double Mets, and Pittsburgh so that may be very very doable. Then they miss the playoffs by 2-4 games and they gaslight us that Jazz as hurt, Sandy had an unexpected down year, Segura was bad, etc........ while ignoring the larger problem of Swanson and Nimmo probably each ended the year as a 4+ WAR player.

That's what I'm expecting, knee jerks in both directions of this team is great and the sky is falling. Because that's who they are.

[fish16]

acting as if the guy who was one of the best pitchers in baseball over a 2 month stretch being sent down for clear financial reasons doesnt make an impact on the team is certainly a take. No one has said it is the entire reason they have fallen apart, but it's not some excuse. It has made a legitimate impact on their ability to win games for close to a month now. And one of the bullshit rationales they gave was that it is not fair to do that to the bullpen every 5th day when he is on an innings limit and they then proceeded to have a bullpen day the 3rd game out of the all star break. It is not the only reason why they have fallen apart, but it no doubt played a significant role in how much worse the back end of the rotation has been with the drop off from Eury to Cueto and Cabrera as well as how taxed the bullpen has become. They did not have any kind of coherent plan to address how to replace him. They didnt even plan to have cueto in the rotation.

[Namaste]

acting as if the guy who was one of the best pitchers in baseball over a 2 month stretch being sent down for clear financial reasons doesnt make an impact on the team is certainly a take. No one has said it is the entire reason they have fallen apart

Someone correct me if I’m wrong but hasn’t fish16 been
saying exactly that for the last month? Like 87 times?

[fish16]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong but hasn’t fish16 been
saying exactly that for the last month? Like 87 times?

never said it was the only reason. i said it was idiotic 87 times, because it was idiotic shutting down one of the best pitchers in baseball when he was helping to carry you for 2 months and having him show 0 signs of fatigue, all because he is coming up on an innings limit that is just entirely made up based on feel. It has played a huge role in how much worse the rotation has been and how much worse the bullpen has been. I have never said it is the only reason. They can't buy a hit with RISP. But you need a lot fewer of those hits with RISP and your margin for error offensively is a lot bigger when you have Eury cruising for 6 innings every 5 days as opposed to Cueto, Cabrera, Soriano, or Okert starting games for you. And the cumulative effect on the bullpen, one of the rationales they gave for sending him down in the first place, is obvious and noticeable since he was sent down.

[rmc523]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong but hasn’t fish16 been
saying exactly that for the last month? Like 87 times?

Yup. And Lou says its not 87 times, and round and round we go....wheeeeeeee.....

haha

[Namaste]

Soler leading off tonight.

Wendle batting 8th

[fish16]

Soler leading off tonight.

Wendle batting 8th

im fine with switching it up but this team's outright refusal to punish awful performance for months on end is infuriating. Almost as infuriating as their outright refusal to reward spectacular performance for months on end. Soler in the leadoff spot seems like a dumb choice. I didnt mind putting jazz up there, moving arraez back to 3rd, and soler down.

[lou]

Yup. And Lou says its not 87 times, and round and round we go....wheeeeeeee.....

haha

It's annoying. And Cueto had a 3.85 ERA in 19 innings so even if you play the results, Cueto did his job and bridged back to Eury. This is a literal nothing burger and just rage posting because the team is in a slump. I'm just pointing this out to assist in reducing fish16's blood pressure. And the end result of this is, I bet we all like the obvious extension coming in the next year or so.

But I have nothing about Wendle. They should be playing Berti. I don't get it. It's time to ditch Wendle and Yuli and Edwards and Amaya IMO.

[fish16]

It's annoying. And Cueto had a 3.85 ERA in 19 innings so even if you play the results, Cueto did his job and bridged back to Eury. This is a literal nothing burger and just rage posting because the team is in a slump. I'm just pointing this out to assist in reducing fish16's blood pressure. And the end result of this is, I bet we all like the obvious extension coming in the next year or so.

But I have nothing about Wendle. They should be playing Berti. I don't get it. It's time to ditch Wendle and Yuli and Edwards and Amaya IMO.

Cueto has a 4.5 ERA as a starter since coming back outside of the 3 innings of meaningless ball out of the pen. Eury's ERA even after getting lit up by the braves for .6 runs in ,1 inning was 2.36. 7 of his last 8 outings were 1 ER or less, 5 of them completely scoreless. That's a big difference from what Cueto and Cabrera have given, and it is a much bigger difference in terms of margin for error offensively. To act like there hasnt been a seismic drop off from what cabrera and cueto have done since the all star break and what eury was doing before the all star break is just horseshit. And it's not just cueto and Cabrera. It's the Okert and Soriano game as well. We have 8 games since the all star break that have been started by Cueto, Cabrera, Soriano, and Okert. The hitting has absolutely fallen apart with RISP, but their pitching has been worse relative to the first half performance than the hitting has since the all star break.

We have a 4.72 ERA since the all star break as a team and a 4.06 ERA pre all star break. A lot of that is due to the overworking that has resulted from Eury's absence. If they had a plan to replace him it would have been somewhat ok. They didnt, and theyve gotten lucky that cueto has even been as passable as he has turned out to be. Without him they'd be even further in shambles with the rotation and especially the bullpen.

[lou]

I won't comment further on it, because there's no point of an endless back and forth about it. But just because you can't put a statistic/number on something doesn't mean it's not A factor. Again, by no means am I saying optioning Eury is THE ONLY reason things aren't going well. It's A factor.

Let's say you were on a team that was playing well, and then they just decided to take your best performing starter out for a few weeks for a non-injury reason (an injury is different). You're legitimately saying that that would not have a psychological impact on you and your teammates that winds up spilling over into performance whether intentional or not? Ok....

yes - there is no psychological impact on you and your teammates that winds up spilling over into performance whether intentional or not.

These are all professional baseball players and what is great is, all of them were 20 years old and playing professional (or high level college) baseball. They know exactly where Eury is and how he developmentally doesn't have the innings as literally every player that is a peer has gone through this and they have seen it all. They all get it. Jazz, Sandy, and Arraez were all in A ball at his age. The organization saying, hey guys, we're shutting him down for 4 weeks so he's pitching in September and available for the PLAYOFFS for you guys is the plan. He's going to throw the same innings (which is true). All of them are going to be like - we get it. Because throwing Eury to shut him down is stupid as said 87x times. It's just unfortunate that they all decided to stop hitting or Robertson blowing saves. Which Eury has no control over.

This was the right decision, but it's fine if you don't like it, don't want to appreciate it, or want to read into it far too much that this caused a morale dip. That's a loser mentality excuse. All of these guys besides Garcia, Berti, and Sandy who are signed have financial motivations on top of we just want to win motivations. You can say its solely financially motivated with Eury but I think that is 100% wrong. Keeping his availability for playoffs is an important determination IMO. And if it happens you deflect super 2, great. Also I want to mention if Eury is so awesome next year like Julio or Aldy, he'll be GIVEN the service time as a bonus. So even if they are solely doing this for financial reasons, chances are Eury could out-perform other under 1 year service time players and get the time back anyways. So all of this will be chirping because Eury may just be given it anyways. Hence, why he'll be signed this offseason to a Hunter Greene style extension and everyone will be happy.

This is a nothing burger. The team can't consistently hit, end of story. The ownership/FO sucks for many reasons, this is absolutely not one of them once you get past the frustration.

[lou]

Cueto has a 4.5 ERA as a starter since coming back outside of the 3 innings of meaningless ball out of the pen. Eury's ERA even after getting lit up by the braves for .6 runs in ,1 inning was 2.36. 7 of his last 8 outings were 1 ER or less, 5 of them completely scoreless. That's a big difference from what Cueto and Cabrera have given, and it is a much bigger difference in terms of margin for error offensively. To act like there hasnt been a seismic drop off from what cabrera and cueto have done since the all star break and what eury was doing before the all star break is just horseshit. And it's not just cueto and Cabrera. It's the Okert and Soriano game as well. We have 8 games since the all star break that have been started by Cueto, Cabrera, Soriano, and Okert. The hitting has absolutely fallen apart with RISP, but their pitching has been worse relative to the first half performance than the hitting has since the all star break.

We have a 4.72 ERA since the all star break as a team and a 4.06 ERA pre all star break. A lot of that is due to the overworking that has resulted from Eury's absence. If they had a plan to replace him it would have been somewhat ok. They didnt, and theyve gotten lucky that cueto has even been as passable as he has turned out to be. Without him they'd be even further in shambles with the rotation and especially the bullpen.

You can't cherry pick the Atlanta games out of the team's run differential. You can't cherry pick innings off guys. And sure they got lucky with Cueto, but he did it! Yuli sucks also, but he is defying expectations and hasn't been embarrassing on some hit luck. He did it. So did Hampson. Good for them. It can be a bad idea, but it can work out. Good for them for getting it out of these players, and hopefully they figure out alternatives before the bottoms drop out.

I'm done with this. Big picture, the only psychological impact Eury has had with the Marlins is on people who think Eury has had a psychological impact on the Marlins. The team can't hit. It's that easy.

[fish16]

You can't cherry pick the Atlanta games out of the team's run differential. You can't cherry pick innings off guys. And sure they got lucky with Cueto, but he did it! Yuli sucks also, but he is defying expectations and hasn't been embarrassing on some hit luck. He did it. So did Hampson. Good for them. It can be a bad idea, but it can work out. Good for them for getting it out of these players, and hopefully they figure out alternatives before the bottoms drop out.

I'm done with this. Big picture, the only psychological impact Eury has had with the Marlins is on people who think Eury has had a psychological impact on the Marlins. The team can't hit. It's that easy.

im not cherry picking innings. It's a fact, he had a 2.36 ERA in just 11 starts with 1 of them being an outing where he only went .1 innings for 6 ER. Those numbers are included in the 2.36 ERA. That's an unbelievable pitcher at 20 years old. To try to downplay the difference between what he was providing and what cueto and cabrera and okert and soriano provided is idiotic. They werent remotely close. Cherry picking stats would be giving you the fact that he had a 1.69 ERA in 10 starts outside of the 1 atlanta game. He was one of the flatout most dominant pitchers in baseball for a 2 month stretch and they sent him down with him showing no signs of fatigue. To downplay the effect that had on the rest of the team is nonsense. Doesnt mean it's the only thing that has contributed to the downturn, but it certainly made a big impact not having another ace in the rotation every 5th day as opposed to Cueto, Cabrera, Okert, and Soriano pitching games over the last month. That has absolutely helped contribute in part to why the bullpen has stunk. And it has absolutely reduced their margin for error offensively. Their offense has been putrid in it's own right as well. The two things are both contributing to why theyve stunk.

[rmc523]

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[lou]

im not cherry picking innings. It's a fact, he had a 2.36 ERA in just 11 starts with 1 of them being an outing where he only went .1 innings for 6 ER. Those numbers are included in the 2.36 ERA. That's an unbelievable pitcher at 20 years old. To try to downplay the difference between what he was providing and what cueto and cabrera and okert and soriano provided is idiotic. They werent remotely close. Cherry picking stats would be giving you the fact that he had a 1.69 ERA in 10 starts outside of the 1 atlanta game. He was one of the flatout most dominant pitchers in baseball for a 2 month stretch and they sent him down with him showing no signs of fatigue. To downplay the effect that had on the rest of the team is nonsense. Doesnt mean it's the only thing that has contributed to the downturn, but it certainly made a big impact not having another ace in the rotation every 5th day as opposed to Cueto, Cabrera, Okert, and Soriano pitching games over the last month. That has absolutely helped contribute in part to why the bullpen has stunk. And it has absolutely reduced their margin for error offensively. Their offense has been putrid in it's own right as well. The two things are both contributing to why theyve stunk.

Taking 3 innings out of 19 is the definition of cherry picking. Cueto has been totally unspectacularly fine. And talking about one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball..... the guy has a xFIP of 3.79. Which is amazing for a 20 year old, but you should pump the breaks here about just throwing out he is one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball. He is very very good but he's not Strider (yet). In any event, you want this unbelievable pitcher pitching in October IMO. What's the point of just shutting him down September 5th and yes, then spending more money on him just because? Should we want this organization to expect success that they will in fact need him in October? I'll take the longterm view and hope to have him pitching in October, with having the exact same MLB inning availability. The broken record of no fatigue is an irrelevant comment as you are not a team doctor nor medical professional and there are countless examples - including Fernandez - of guys this young breaking down for previous year overuse.

We can agree to disagree, but this is 100% insane IMO. The team sucks lately and trying to correlate this to a singular roster move after they traded for 3 prominent players is beyond a stretch. Hammer them on Wendle and Edwards type shit. This is a, stop trying to make fetch happen level response. This is not a thing with team morale imploding with Eury.