2023 Game Thread

[rmc523]

Less than 11,000 people in attendance for a game on September 19th with the Marlins .5 game out of the Wild Card. Tickets were FREE with a donation.

I'm surprised it was that low, especially considering it's the Mets, and recent attendance numbers. That said, being a Tuesday and bad weather didn't help.

I'd agree it's sad that people aren't showing up considering we're in contention. I'm planning on going with a few people on Sunday.

[fish16]

Yeah, as mentioned, he had to be on the roster by Sept 1 to be postseason eligible.

i see that now. i think they changed that rule at some point to prevent the "injury" loophole. I remember the year maybin came up in late september and hit like .500 and we made a mini run towards a playoff spot, there was talk that they could find a way to get him on the roster. it makes sense that they plugged up that loophole. im just pissed at the guardians for making such an unnecessary claim of lopez and moore as if they had any shot of taking over the division lead. this bullpen could desperately use the boost of a lopez and moore and giolito has been bad but he's better than cueto.

[fish16]

I'm surprised it was that low, especially considering it's the Mets, and recent attendance numbers. That said, being a Tuesday and bad weather didn't help.

I'd agree it's sad that people aren't showing up considering we're in contention. I'm planning on going with a few people on Sunday.

the weather was awful on monday too. some of the most crazy lightning storms ive seen 2 days straight.

[fish16]

tonight is a must win game. the brewers series is going to be super tough. They have burnes, woodruff, and peralta all going.

[fish16]

idk what it is about puk, but even though his numbers are tremendous since the trade deadline, i have no confidence in him in big spots any more. he has been flat out horrible at home all year. 5+ ERA at home, 2.18 ERA on the road, 8 of his 9 homers given up have been at home. And they havent been cheap homers either. he gives up absolute bombs

[rmc523]

the weather was awful on monday too. some of the most crazy lightning storms ive seen 2 days straight.

Oh yeah, I was coming home last night from a bowling league I'm in, and the lightning was insane, but cool to watch.

[lou]

Last night wasn’t just another weekday, though.

It was the last home stand of the year-this team has a real chance of making the playoffs in a full season for the first time in 20 years-weekday baseball.

There were as many Mets fans as there were Marlins fans. It’s pathetic.

I'm with fish16 generally here. The franchise hasn't ever really invested consistently with the team and they have had three tear downs (post 05 after the "good" stretch, post new stadium, post Fernandez) the last 18 years with no "real" playoff appearances during this time. Covid year is nothing to me personally. They've had the lowest attendance and if not the worst record in baseball during this time, easily bottom 3-5. We don't need to go into it as we all know the history, but they need to consistently field a better product for years to create fan confidence. It can't just be, oh they are getting better so let's go on a weekday now. It's my whole problem with the ownership groups. They say come to the park and we'll invest in the team, when it is the opposite and invest in your team and run this like a business and not an entitlement franchise. Maybe you lose money for a few seasons, but the eyes are on the prize of consistently drawing 2m+ every season and then that + franchise valuation bumps make you back literally hundreds of millions.


I'm a big believer in the "if you build if they will come" philosophy of baseball, so cross your fingers and make the playoffs then do this in the offseason.

Arraez 5/$85m
Luzardo 5/$70m
Jazz 5/$60m + big playing time incentives if he hits PA
Eury 6/$55 + 2 club options
Soler 2/$32m
Scott 3/$27m

Trade Rogers, Nasim, and some 18 year old lottery ticket for Adames and throw-in prospect as a base package, and resign Adames to a 6/$130m deal. Milwaukee needs a pitcher and can't afford Adames longterm so it's getting rid of him a year early then for nothing.

Trade Fulton, Nardi, Mesa Jr., and Mack for Danny Jansen and a throw in and resign for 4/$50m deal. Toronto needs to cut payroll and gets all sorts of good secondary parts for "1" service year of Jansen. Maybe Pop comes back to the Marlins here to help with righty relievers.


You're running this out for $130-135m (so you have room to add a veteran RHP reliever) and just gave out $500m+ in contracts over 35+ control seasons of legitimate allstar level players, which do that math is a good deal on average per player even if that's a large number. It's over seasons and seasons. Everyone takes that here given where they are on service time.

Parenthesis are control years starting in 2024.

Jansen(4), Fortes(5)/Banfield(6)
Bell(1) --- > Berry replaces Bell
Arraez (5), Hampson(3) --- > Cappe replaces Hampson
Adames(6), Berti (1) --- > Amaya replaces Berti
Burger (5)
DLC (4)
Jazz (5), Edwards (6)
Sanchez (4)
Soler (2) --- > Dane/Burdick/Johnston/TBD replace Soler

Sandy (4), Eury (6+), Cabrera (5)
Luzardo (5), Garrett (5)
_______, Chargois (2), and pick two of Meyer (5), Bender (5), Brazoban (5), Soriano (6), Hoeing (6), Maldonado (6), Sixto(?), etc. They will churn righties.
Scott (3), Puk (3), Okert (3), Weathers (5)

This is roughly 17th out of 30 in payroll assuming it's a medium priced RHP reliever added to the top. They could just resign Moore here, and trade Puk or Okert for a similar CC right hander and the same thing is accomplished for call it $140m. Which is still 17th in payroll. This includes $16m in dead money to Garcia, Barnes, and Cueto I might add.


Basically this is a playoff contender and completely signed for 3 years and won't break the bank as Bell, Berti, Hampson, Chargois, Garcia, Barnes, and Cueto ($35m+) would come off 2024 to pay for raises in 2025 to Sandy, Sanchez, DLC, the lefty relievers, and other scale ups. Shit 2025 payroll would probably drop here. And then Soler and likely guys like DLC/Okert would come off in 2025 to help pay for 2026, etc. Then you'll have some decisions to make in 2027 but that is a LONG time from now, but practically, guys like N. Meyer and White may be ready by then. It's a sustainable high upside team for an under league average payroll and their best few position player prospects in upper farm should fit in nicely for the few bat defections coming.

This is the kind of vision I want to see, and then do better marketing where just cut ticket prices, cut beer prices, and pack the place for 2 years and then slowly scale back up the pricing. Just get butts in seats having a good time with a good product and good things will happen.


But what do I know. It's not my money. I'm sure they will impress us ::laugh track::. But I don't blame people until the franchise starts acting like a winner. See Florida Panthers who are drawing after massive multi year investments.

[fish16]

I'm with fish16 generally here. The franchise hasn't ever really invested consistently with the team and they have had three tear downs (post 05 after the "good" stretch, post new stadium, post Fernandez) the last 18 years with no "real" playoff appearances during this time. Covid year is nothing to me personally. They've had the lowest attendance and if not the worst record in baseball during this time, easily bottom 3-5. We don't need to go into it as we all know the history, but they need to consistently field a better product for years to create fan confidence. It can't just be, oh they are getting better so let's go on a weekday now. It's my whole problem with the ownership groups. They say come to the park and we'll invest in the team, when it is the opposite and invest in your team and run this like a business and not an entitlement franchise. Maybe you lose money for a few seasons, but the eyes are on the prize of consistently drawing 2m+ every season and then that + franchise valuation bumps make you back literally hundreds of millions.


I'm a big believer in the "if you build if they will come" philosophy of baseball, so cross your fingers and make the playoffs then do this in the offseason.

Arraez 5/$85m
Luzardo 5/$70m
Jazz 5/$60m + big playing time incentives if he hits PA
Eury 6/$55 + 2 club options
Soler 2/$32m
Scott 3/$27m

Trade Rogers, Nasim, and some 18 year old lottery ticket for Adames and throw-in prospect as a base package, and resign Adames to a 6/$130m deal. Milwaukee needs a pitcher and can't afford Adames longterm so it's getting rid of him a year early then for nothing.

Trade Fulton, Nardi, Mesa Jr., and Mack for Danny Jansen and a throw in and resign for 4/$50m deal. Toronto needs to cut payroll and gets all sorts of good secondary parts for "1" service year of Jansen. Maybe Pop comes back to the Marlins here to help with righty relievers.


You're running this out for $130-135m (so you have room to add a veteran RHP reliever) and just gave out $500m+ in contracts over 35+ control seasons of legitimate allstar level players, which do that math is a good deal on average per player even if that's a large number. It's over seasons and seasons. Everyone takes that here given where they are on service time.

Parenthesis are control years starting in 2024.

Jansen(4), Fortes(5)/Banfield(6)
Bell(1) --- > Berry replaces Bell
Arraez (5), Hampson(3) --- > Cappe replaces Hampson
Adames(6), Berti (1) --- > Amaya replaces Berti
Burger (5)
DLC (4)
Jazz (5), Edwards (6)
Sanchez (4)
Soler (2) --- > Dane/Burdick/Johnston/TBD replace Soler

Sandy (4), Eury (6+), Cabrera (5)
Luzardo (5), Garrett (5)
_______, Chargois (2), and pick two of Meyer (5), Bender (5), Brazoban (5), Soriano (6), Hoeing (6), Maldonado (6), Sixto(?), etc. They will churn righties.
Scott (3), Puk (3), Okert (3), Weathers (5)

This is roughly 17th out of 30 in payroll assuming it's a medium priced RHP reliever added to the top. They could just resign Moore here, and trade Puk or Okert for a similar CC right hander and the same thing is accomplished for call it $140m. Which is still 17th in payroll. This includes $16m in dead money to Garcia, Barnes, and Cueto I might add.


Basically this is a playoff contender and completely signed for 3 years and won't break the bank as Bell, Berti, Hampson, Chargois, Garcia, Barnes, and Cueto ($35m+) would come off 2024 to pay for raises in 2025 to Sandy, Sanchez, DLC, the lefty relievers, and other scale ups. Shit 2025 payroll would probably drop here. And then Soler and likely guys like DLC/Okert would come off in 2025 to help pay for 2026, etc. Then you'll have some decisions to make in 2027 but that is a LONG time from now, but practically, guys like N. Meyer and White may be ready by then. It's a sustainable high upside team for an under league average payroll and their best few position player prospects in upper farm should fit in nicely for the few bat defections coming.

This is the kind of vision I want to see, and then do better marketing where just cut ticket prices, cut beer prices, and pack the place for 2 years and then slowly scale back up the pricing. Just get butts in seats having a good time with a good product and good things will happen.


But what do I know. It's not my money. I'm sure they will impress us ::laugh track::. But I don't blame people until the franchise starts acting like a winner. See Florida Panthers who are drawing after massive multi year investments.

this exactly. Ive said it for years, they need an owner with vision willing to take a slight upfront loss with the view of it making a big difference in fan engagement and attendance long term. Sherman was the worst possible kind of owner to buy this team. They needed an owner with deep pockets willing to make upfront investments to help build back the trust of the fanbase. The only way this will work to bring out fans consistently is for big up front investments in quality players and locking up current studs to make this a league average at worst payroll, then that would hopefully bring sustained success, the trust from the fanbase comes back, and fans start coming out more consistently. This will lead to an upfront loss for the owner but with the probability of increased revenues over the course of a couple years that will enable this to become a consistently middle of the pack payroll.

nobody is asking for this team to become the dodgers, but there is 0 reason why we should have a payroll that is $63 million lower than the AVERAGE payroll in baseball. Fuck off for calling me a bad fan for not going out to support that bullshit payroll from the owner when he is also pulling bullshit penny pinching moves elsewhere consistently. You dont deserve my business as a fan, you earn it. Sherman hasnt done jack shit to earn any fans business. IF he doesnt have the capital to make this happen, he should sell the team. Otherwise, don't get mad at the fans for not supporting his cheapness.

[Lee Stone]

Not liking team's chances vs Senga tonite. With Arraez out, the rest of the team has a 2-26 history off the Mets import.

[fish16]

i for one did not have braxton garrett having a higher WAR than sandy this year. Garrett has been unbelievable all year long.

[fish16]

having the tie breakers against most of these teams seems like it is going to come in handy. This is going to come down to the last game or 2. giants have fallen back a little bit so it would be huge for them to take today's game against the Dbacks with Webb on the mound.

[lou]

this exactly. Ive said it for years, they need an owner with vision willing to take a slight upfront loss with the view of it making a big difference in fan engagement and attendance long term. Sherman was the worst possible kind of owner to buy this team. They needed an owner with deep pockets willing to make upfront investments to help build back the trust of the fanbase. The only way this will work to bring out fans consistently is for big up front investments in quality players and locking up current studs to make this a league average at worst payroll, then that would hopefully bring sustained success, the trust from the fanbase comes back, and fans start coming out more consistently. This will lead to an upfront loss for the owner but with the probability of increased revenues over the course of a couple years that will enable this to become a consistently middle of the pack payroll.

nobody is asking for this team to become the dodgers, but there is 0 reason why we should have a payroll that is $63 million lower than the AVERAGE payroll in baseball. Fuck off for calling me a bad fan for not going out to support that bullshit payroll from the owner when he is also pulling bullshit penny pinching moves elsewhere consistently. You dont deserve my business as a fan, you earn it. Sherman hasnt done jack shit to earn any fans business. IF he doesnt have the capital to make this happen, he should sell the team. Otherwise, don't get mad at the fans for not supporting his cheapness.

And to add, I don't think he'd even take a loss because the franchise increases in value annually so when Sherman eventually sells, it's going to be a net profit based on his day 1 and no "tens of millions" operating loss over a few years is going to impact a $2b sale or whatever it is whenever that happens years down the road, etc.

I can understand the tear down and waiting a few years to spend. I don't blame Bruce for that. This should have been the last 2 offseasons though, but holy shit after *THIS* year where your best two players (arguably) have been underperforming and hurt (Sandy and Jazz), and you've missed other serious on paper contributors (Rogers, Segura, etc.), this is the moment we will forever know if Bruce is another Loria. I fully believe Jeff would go for it in free agency for 2024 with this team though, and just tell Larry, Mike, and David, we will unapologetically fire sale this shit off July 2025/2026 if it doesn't work.

Up to Bruce, but let's make the playoffs before the inevitable offseason bitching on literally the same issues.

[fish16]

And to add, I don't think he'd even take a loss because the franchise increases in value annually so when Sherman eventually sells, it's going to be a net profit based on his day 1 and no "tens of millions" operating loss over a few years is going to impact a $2b sale or whatever it is whenever that happens years down the road, etc.

I can understand the tear down and waiting a few years to spend. I don't blame Bruce for that. This should have been the last 2 offseasons though, but holy shit after *THIS* year where your best two players (arguably) have been underperforming and hurt (Sandy and Jazz), and you've missed other serious on paper contributors (Rogers, Segura, etc.), this is the moment we will forever know if Bruce is another Loria. I fully believe Jeff would go for it in free agency for 2024 with this team though, and just tell Larry, Mike, and David, we will unapologetically fire sale this shit off July 2025/2026 if it doesn't work.

Up to Bruce, but let's make the playoffs before the inevitable offseason bitching on literally the same issues.

By loss i mean on a year to year basis. obviously it's almost impossible for an owner to lose money when they sell the team at this point. the tear down and rebuild was necessary, but he promised to spend when the time came after "rebuilding the organization from top to bottom" and that was bullshit. They way overestimated how much revenue they could generate simply because they werent loria and samson and because derek jeter was involved, as if anyone down here gave a shit about derek jeter buying a piece of the team and running things.

[fish16]

moore will be there tonight. im assuming the rotating cast of innings eaters will disappear to create the roster spot the last 2 weeks. I think currently chi chi gonzalez is in the pen so it's gotta be him who gets DFA'd

[fish16]

the additions of bell and burger, jazz simply being available, and hampson being terrific have really made this lineup so much deeper than it was pre all star break. Pre all star break we had just 3 guys who played more than 10 games with an OPS above .760. Post all star break it's 7 guys with an OPS above .760. If they would just stop playing wendle and give hampson the every day starting SS gig, we could really score runs on a consistent basis