2019-2020 Offseason Discussion

[lou]

Padres are financially motivated to move Myers - https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...uantrill-trade

This is easy. Send them Rojas, take on Myers, $30-40 million, and 2 good prospects and maybe more.

Move Villar to SS, Myers can dabble in CF with Berti/Ramirez/Sierra for 3 months until Monte is up and then reassess.

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They traded the 2nd best player IN ALL OF MLB and they didn’t get a Top 20 prospect in return.

But keep defending the trade.

Also, with Villar slated to start in CF, leaving Brinson who the fuck knows where, the Yelich trade inches closer to a confirmed total disaster.

They need 15 WAR out of the 4 of them their club controlled years to get out of "raging dumpster fire."

So they have like 17 WAR to go considering Brinson being a negative.

And then it's just a dumpster fire, minus the rage.

[fish16]

They traded the 2nd best player IN ALL OF MLB and they didn’t get a Top 20 prospect in return.

But keep defending the trade.

Also, with Villar slated to start in CF, leaving Brinson who the fuck knows where, the Yelich trade inches closer to a confirmed total disaster.

First off, I’m not sure how many times I have to reiterate I’m not defending the return at this point, I’m defending the rebuilding process of trading him at all and The value they got for him at the time of the trade. Second, you can continue to have great hindsight but they didn’t trade the 2nd best player in mlb, they traded a great pure hitter who was on a great contract but also one who had never had over an .860 ops or more than 21 hrs. So spare me the hindsight bullshit of you knowing yelich was the 2nd best player in baseball. Is there something to be said about his great contract and obvious pure hitting ability? Absolutely. But again spare me this bullshit of you knowing yelich was this guy who is gonna hit you 45-50 hrs.

And again, to reiterate, I’m not defending the fucking return at this point. All I was saying was that given the point they were in as an organization, the fact that we had a bottom 3 farm system in baseball, no realistic shot of contending for 3 years, and then a guy who was a great asset but who hadn’t put up numbers to reflect a superstar level talent, literally the only thing I was saying was that it made sense to trade him. They obviously needed to nail that and they completely fucked it up, but the thought process in the midst of the rebuild absolutely made sense, and to get 3 top 100 prospects plus a fourth sp prospect for a guy who had never hit more than 21 hrs or have an ops over .860, that’s not a bad value, they just got awful scouting advice on brinsons potential.

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Also if you think yelich puts up anywhere close to those type numbers in what would have been this shit lineup and this pitching ballpark for the last 2 years you’re kidding yourself.

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If you had yelich going from 18 hrs and an .807 ops along with 16/18 sb’s in his last year here to 44 hr’s, a 1.100 ops, and 30 sb’s in 115 fewer play appearances 2 years later you’re just straight up full of shit.

[Nick]

Also if you think yelich puts up anywhere close to those type numbers in what would have been this shit lineup and this pitching ballpark for the last 2 years you’re kidding yourself.

This is a bogus argment. Yelich's OPS was over 1.000 in parks other than Miller Park last year. Protection in a lineup helps, but it doesn't turn an above average player into a superstar. Teams and Scouts understand park factors in this day and age his value would have been just as high putting slightly less gaudy stats in Miami then he would putting up the gaudy stats in Miller Park.

Miller Park didn't turn Yelich into a superstar. He was an elite prospect that finally met his full potential in his age 26 season. Pretty typical.

[fish16]

My entire opinion is the same as the Cabrera trade. Process makes all the sense in the world, execution and result turns out awful. Maybin and miller were two top 10 prospects in all of baseball, neither worked out here. That doesn’t make the deal a bad value at the time just because you have the benefit of hindsight

[Nick]

Miguel Cabrera wasn't locked into a super cheap contract for the next 5 years.

[fish16]

This is a bogus argment. Yelich's OPS was over 1.000 in parks other than Miller Park last year. Protection in a lineup helps, but it doesn't turn an above average player into a superstar. Teams and Scouts understand park factors in this day and age his value would have been just as high putting slightly less gaudy stats in Miami then he would putting up the gaudy stats in Miller Park.

Miller Park didn't turn Yelich into a superstar. He was an elite prospect that finally met his full potential in his age 26 season. Pretty typical.

If you think it’s pretty typical to go from what he was for the first 5 big league years to what he was the last two you don’t understand history. His improvement the last two years is close to unprecedented for someone 5 years into their career who has never shown that much power and was never expected to hit for anything close to that amount of power

[Nick]

If you think it’s pretty typical to go from what he was for the first 5 big league years to what he was the last two you don’t understand history. His improvement the last two years is close to unprecedented for someone 5 years into their career who has never shown that much power and was never expected to hit for anything close to that amount of power

The talk when he was here, was why isn't Yelich hitting for more power in games? If you ever watched his BP you knew the guy had serious power, it just hadn't translated to the games. It started translating when he got to Milwaukee. If you had asked me to put money on him becoming a perennial MVP candidate after the 2017 season I definitely wouldn't have, but the potential was always there, this was a top 10 prospect in all of baseball. Most guys don't reach their full potential, though.

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Here's an interesting comparison fish16. I believe you are in favor of giving Lewis Brinson 1 last shot at major league time, correct? Lewis Brinson is now the age Christian Yelich was when we traded him. If Brinson matched Yelich's "unprecedented" leap in OPS that Yelich had from 2017 to 2018 from 2019 to 2020 his OPS would be .650. So basically still not even a playable major league starter. (and that's ignoring things such as park factors which helped Yelich)

[fish16]

I’m in favor of giving him one more shot just because of the investment and the fact that we won’t be contending this year regardless so I’d like to give him one more chance because why not, but not necessarily because of my belief that there will be any significant improvement there

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I’d also argue there’s probably more of a precedent from a young player playing like shit his first few tastes of the big leagues and then becoming a competent major leaguer if nothing special vs a 5 year very solid player all of a sudden putting up legendary production, but again I don’t think brinson will ever get to be a productive player at this point

[rmc523]

Miguel Cabrera wasn't locked into a super cheap contract for the next 5 years.

A contract which would also still line up with when we're targeting to be competitive again too.

[lou]

A contract which would also still line up with when we're targeting to be competitive again too.

ding ding ding

Why is this still a thing?

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My entire opinion is the same as the Cabrera trade. Process makes all the sense in the world, execution and result turns out awful. Maybin and miller were two top 10 prospects in all of baseball, neither worked out here. That doesn’t make the deal a bad value at the time just because you have the benefit of hindsight

Cabrera trade A+ on paper still to this day. Some things just don't work out. I don't fault them on the process, just the execution, there.

Yelich was a C- on paper at best as they undersold him, and now it's torpedo'd into a Coronavirus

[fish16]

ding ding ding

Why is this still a thing?

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Cabrera trade A+ on paper still to this day. Some things just don't work out. I don't fault them on the process, just the execution, there.

Yelich was a C- on paper at best as they undersold him, and now it's torpedo'd into a Coronavirus

Then we just disagree on the return as it was two years ago. I think that’s a very good return that didn’t work out. I agree that I would have preferred hiura to isan but isan is also a very good prospect and I think three top 100 position players is a nice return for a guy who hasn’t shown elite power to that point. I don’t think it’s an a+ return as I wanted a deal with the braves and the pitching but I see it still as a solid b return for a great asset

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ding ding ding

Why is this still a thing?

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Cabrera trade A+ on paper still to this day. Some things just don't work out. I don't fault them on the process, just the execution, there.

Yelich was a C- on paper at best as they undersold him, and now it's torpedo'd into a Coronavirus

Then we just disagree on the return as it was two years ago. I think that’s a very good return that didn’t work out. I agree that I would have preferred hiura to isan but isan is also a very good prospect and I think three top 100 position players is a nice return for a guy who hasn’t shown elite power to that point. I don’t think it’s an a+ return as I wanted a deal with the braves and the pitching but I see it still as a solid b return for a great asset

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I also think in the aggregate the return for Stanton, ozuna and jt as well as dee Gordon were great

[Erick]

fish16 should have a PR job with the front office.

All he has to do is start using the phrase "layers of talent," and I'd think he's Mike Hill.

[fish16]

fish16 should have a PR job with the front office.

All he has to do is start using the phrase "layers of talent," and I'd think he's Mike Hill.

I criticize them all the time. Sorry I recognize the complete shit show from top to bottom this organization was under loria. This is a completely rebuilt organization that needed just that and then some. There was not a single functioning part of this organization and they have taken great steps in 2 years about to start the third. They have recognized how a baseball team must operate down here to be successful, and while they don’t make every perfect move and I criticize dumbass individual decisions all the time, they are doing exactly what is necessary to get this team into a position to be competitive and contenders for a sustained period of time for the first time in franchise history. That’s what mattered most for me, doing what it takes to become CONSISTENTLY competitive and not just always hoping to be that surprise team each and every fucking year when they have no realistic shot

And just so you guys know and don’t set yourselves up for disappointment in the coming years- this team ain’t spending on a mega free agent and will need to operate just like this in the coming off seasons to be consistently competitive. This team will operate like a more expensive rays team (around 100-110 million) and that’s ok to me because if they continue to do it like this, the right way, and never stray from the plan, they will be able to be contenders more often than not because building a winning baseball team isnt nearly as hard as jeffrey loria made it seem.

[Nick]

I criticize them all the time. Sorry I recognize the complete shit show from top to bottom this organization was under loria. This is a completely rebuilt organization that needed just that and then some. There was not a single functioning part of this organization and they have taken great steps in 2 years about to start the third. They have recognized how a baseball team must operate down here to be successful, and while they don’t make every perfect move and I criticize dumbass individual decisions all the time, they are doing exactly what is necessary to get this team into a position to be competitive and contenders for a sustained period of time for the first time in franchise history. That’s what mattered most for me, doing what it takes to become CONSISTENTLY competitive and not just always hoping to be that surprise team each and every fucking year when they have no realistic shot

And just so you guys know and don’t set yourselves up for disappointment in the coming years- this team ain’t spending on a mega free agent and will need to operate just like this in the coming off seasons to be consistently competitive. This team will operate like a more expensive rays team (around 100-110 million) and that’s ok to me because if they continue to do it like this, the right way, and never stray from the plan, they will be able to be contenders more often than not because building a winning baseball team isnt nearly as hard as jeffrey loria made it seem.

You have a Janitor friend now too?

[lou]

Then we just disagree on the return as it was two years ago. I think that’s a very good return that didn’t work out. I agree that I would have preferred hiura to isan but isan is also a very good prospect and I think three top 100 position players is a nice return for a guy who hasn’t shown elite power to that point. I don’t think it’s an a+ return as I wanted a deal with the braves and the pitching but I see it still as a solid b return for a great asset

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Then we just disagree on the return as it was two years ago. I think that’s a very good return that didn’t work out. I agree that I would have preferred hiura to isan but isan is also a very good prospect and I think three top 100 position players is a nice return for a guy who hasn’t shown elite power to that point. I don’t think it’s an a+ return as I wanted a deal with the braves and the pitching but I see it still as a solid b return for a great asset

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I also think in the aggregate the return for Stanton, ozuna and jt as well as dee Gordon were great

Let me clarify, they needed Hiura or Burnes outright added , not as a replacement for Isan. If you want to swap Isan and Yamamoto with those two, I could have digged. That's how valuable Yelich was - and that's before the uptick in performance.

No one I think has any venom for Stanton, Ozuna, Realmuto, or Gordon. Those were fine at the time, and we'll see if they pan out. Same with Cabrera. The Cabrera trade was awesome on paper, but shit happens. Making a few good trades doesn't mean the nuclear bomb you dropped didn't detonate.

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this team ain’t spending on a mega free agent and will need to operate just like this in the coming off seasons to be consistently competitive. This team will operate like a more expensive rays team (around 100-110 million) and that’s ok to me

Payroll is going to be in the $50s for years, with nearly all spots taken. All they should be doing is signing 2-3 mega free agents