Marlins trade Justin Bour to Phillies

[Lee Stone]

Lou: "You said Buster is replaceable - along with all other catchers because they aren't a necessary position"

You are arguing with yourself, Lou. No one on this forum or any other ever said that catchers aren't a necessary position. You tend to create these issues on your own.

"You people are something else."

Yes, Lou. It's called logical.

[rmc523]

Lou: "You said Buster is replaceable - along with all other catchers because they aren't a necessary position"

You are arguing with yourself, Lou. No one on this forum or any other ever said that catchers aren't a necessary position. You tend to create these issues on your own.

"You people are something else."

Yes, Lou. It's called logical.

Your son said it...

2018
Posey .297/.369/.403 AVG/OBP/SLG, 5 HR, 40 RBI for $21.4M this year, and $21.4 for the next 3 years as well.
Molina .288/.334,/.474, 15HR, 53 RBI for $20M this year and two more.

But, at least they're good defensively. Well... actually Molina is 37th in SB% and Posey is 55th.

You're the fantasy player, or at least living in fantasy land if you think the Giants and Cardinals are getting good production for their money.

Is Boston any good? Their catchers are Leon, Vazquez and Swihart.
Cleveland? Yan (Yawn?) Gomes.
Houston? Brian McCann makes $17M, and another $15M next year. At least he's contributed a .206 average and 5 HR when healthy thus far this season.
Atlanta, Philadelphia and Washington? Suzuki, Flowers, Alfaro, Knapp, Wieters, Severino, Kieboom.
Cubs? Contreras.
Arizona? Murphy, Mathis, Avila.

The only catcher you'd want from the list of division leaders is Conteras, who is young and comes in at $600K pre-arbitration this season. But, then you look at his numbers... and he's kind of Brian Anderson in catcher's gear. Hardly an earth-mover.

Point is this (thanks Todd), MLB catcher is a plug and play position. Very high-risk, prone to wearing down and to my original point (thanks again Todd) Soto would have been more valuable to the Marlins moving forward than Realmuto (for serval reasons - team control, salary, injury risk and... production).

- - - - - - - - - -




Right, because there's no chance we could be related? Time to turn in your CSI badge and pick up your Douche card.

[Nick]

Posey's offensive numbers are very consistent across the board - season to season. Agreed? So, it's probably safe to assume his "pitch framing" is pretty consistent as well? Why then did the Giants go from a team ERA of first and second in the league in 2010 & 2011 to 22nd in 2013? And if Posey is to credit for the Giants success, and his production is consistent season to season, then why did the Giants ebb and flow so drastically in even and odd years?

No one ever said Posey was a "bad" player. You're going to have to come to grips with that at some point. Was he solely responsible for the Giants rings? Of course not. Could they have won those without him? Of course they could have.

1. Nobody said he was solely responsible.
2. If you remove Buster Posey from those teams they don't win any of those Championships. If you can't see that, you're watching a different game. I mean look what happened in 2011 when Cousins destroyed his knee. 2011 was actually the year they gave up the fewest runs in the three year stretch of 2010-2012. But somehow they scored 120 fewer runs in 2011 than they did in 2010, and 148 fewer runs than they did in 2012 and missed the playoffs in 2011. I wonder what the difference was?

[Lee Stone]

Your son said it...

There you go again. He went through the list of top teams and showed that they were not $20 million-a-year catcher dependent. Yet you would drop a giant contract on Realmuto.
Take a look at this: https://legacy.baseballprospectus.co...hp?cid=1899536 Somebody went to a lot of trouble to evaluate catcher defense. Realmuto ranks 32nd for this season (well behind Bryan Holaday). It's hard to even find Posey on the list.

[Lee Stone]

1. Nobody said he was solely responsible.
2. If you remove Buster Posey from those teams they don't win any of those Championships. If you can't see that, you're watching a different game. I mean look what happened in 2011 when Cousins destroyed his knee. 2011 was actually the year they gave up the fewest runs in the three year stretch of 2010-2012. But somehow they scored 120 fewer runs in 2011 than they did in 2010, and 148 fewer runs than they did in 2012 and missed the playoffs in 2011. I wonder what the difference was?

My first reaction was to say that the Giants would have been even better back in 2010 if Posey played first base and the team deployed a better defensive catcher. Then I looked at the roster and saw that Aubry Huff (remember him?) was at first and was a bigger offensive contributor than Posey.

[Lee Stone]

Lee Stone is useless. Dont know why you guys continue to engage him. Let him evaluate players by his own ridiculously and obviously flawed methods if he wants to

I'm going to dedicate five minutes to relaying an example of your thoughtful contribution to the forum and humanity.

fish 16, one month ago: "Its crazy that Justin Twine has relentlessly failed his way up to AA."

My response: "I watched Twine at Jupiter a few times. He looks like an excellent prospect to me, despite the modest (very modest) stats. He and Nelson stuck out as the "special" talents on a very meager roster. Nelson is just starting to hit. Twine is a couple years older."

fish 16: "You know absolutely nothing about player evaluation."

My response: "You've told me that a dozen times. I've watched the guy play ... you clearly haven't."

fish 16: "you watching him play once doesnt make up for 5 years of sample size of him being a truly terrible player. He is a career .598 OPS hitter with 439 k's to 63 walks. Truly one of the worst players in the minors who wasnt released solely due to his draft status."

rational intervention from geemoney: "What in particular impressed you about Twine?"

My response: "Ultra athletic and stands out among the rest. Watching Tampa Bay vs. New York on TV tonight I had a comparable feeling about Andujar. He was the most special quick-twitch player on the field. That's Twine. Five slow years of development aside, he is 10 for 18 since being promoted to AA."

fish 16 back again: " 5 years of sample size vs 5 games. You are the gift that keeps on giving."

There you have it. All that bullshit when the correct response was: Hope you're right about Twine! After all,
we're all hoping for the best, aren't we?

[lou]

There you go again. He went through the list of top teams and showed that they were not $20 million-a-year catcher dependent. Yet you would drop a giant contract on Realmuto.
Take a look at this: https://legacy.baseballprospectus.co...hp?cid=1899536 Somebody went to a lot of trouble to evaluate catcher defense. Realmuto ranks 32nd for this season (well behind Bryan Holaday). It's hard to even find Posey on the list.

You realize how stupid that first "point" is right, because if you look at baseball from a macro level, every player is replaceable by that argument because some other team will have a superior player versus a shitty starter somewhere and you can use that as a way of justifying that position isn't important because a team still WINS without it. This is your logic - the 2018 Indians have gotten .7 WAR from 1B this season. 1B is replaceable and you should never devote money to 1B. It has nothing to do with Lindor, Bauer, Kluber, and J. Ramirez being awesome. It has everything to do with, you can win without a 1B. Never spend on 1B. They are replaceable commodities.

I'm not sure how you two are having a disconnect here, but is the player good? Do they give you good value for a contract? Buster of course has given the Giants $250 million in surplus value, so flatly saying he is replaceable because he's a catcher, or he has a few less RBI then 155 game starters, or throws out a few less runners 5 years into a contract, is idiotic when he has provided the Giants so much. The Giants have profited so tremendously off of him it's outrageous. That kind of player - wherever the fuck they play - is irreplaceable. And to get it at catcher, holy fucking shit, because it's easier to find guys literally everywhere else. This swings back to, you're going to not sign a player for 4 ultra prime years because you may get him at 70% of his peal production value at the back end of the deal? You're going to not sign a guy that's going to give you that much surplus value because you're scared they may be bad the last year or two? You don't want to pay a guy to create a contending window? All of that is beyond dumb and exactly what you don't want to do when developing a contending team. You sign Buster. You sign Miguel Cabrera. You sign Jose Ramirez. You sign Mike Trout. You sign all of these guys to be awesome for you for years because they are all virtually irreplaceable.

Also, Buster is rated positively defensively, and has a #6 overall floor for 2018 catcher production. He could very well end up # 2 behind Realmuto if he gets hot. https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ter=&players=0

Everyone agrees with you guys catcher deals are risky, and if the disagreement is some of us like Realmuto to hold up by his body type over 5 years compared to others saying nah that's risky he's still a catcher, cool? That's a reasonable for and against position and no one is coming after you guys. Reasonable minds can disagree.

But, the problem is all this stupidity you two are posting that IS NOT that. Catchers are replaceable, posting Buster's HR are worth $4 million each, saying no team has ever been built around a catcher and then bring up Johnny Bench in a positive manner, relying on 1 piece of pizza (SB rates) rather than the whole pie in evaluating catcher defense, suggesting World Series wins aren't that important and double down on HR/RBI as effective offensive stats. It's like you went to the Sarah Palin Baseball School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to Do Other Stuff Good Too. I mean the fuck guys.

[Lee Stone]

You realize how stupid that first "point" is right, because if you look at baseball from a macro level, every player is replaceable by that argument because some other team will have a superior player versus a shitty starter somewhere and you can use that as a way of justifying that position isn't important because a team still WINS without it. This is your logic - the 2018 Indians have gotten .7 WAR from 1B this season. 1B is replaceable and you should never devote money to 1B. It has nothing to do with Lindor, Bauer, Kluber, and J. Ramirez being awesome. It has everything to do with, you can win without a 1B. Never spend on 1B. They are replaceable commodities.

I'm not sure how you two are having a disconnect here, but is the player good? Do they give you good value for a contract? Buster of course has given the Giants $250 million in surplus value, so flatly saying he is replaceable because he's a catcher, or he has a few less RBI then 155 game starters, or throws out a few less runners 5 years into a contract, is idiotic when he has provided the Giants so much. The Giants have profited so tremendously off of him it's outrageous. That kind of player - wherever the fuck they play - is irreplaceable. And to get it at catcher, holy fucking shit, because it's easier to find guys literally everywhere else. This swings back to, you're going to not sign a player for 4 ultra prime years because you may get him at 70% of his peal production value at the back end of the deal? You're going to not sign a guy that's going to give you that much surplus value because you're scared they may be bad the last year or two? You don't want to pay a guy to create a contending window? All of that is beyond dumb and exactly what you don't want to do when developing a contending team. You sign Buster. You sign Miguel Cabrera. You sign Jose Ramirez. You sign Mike Trout. You sign all of these guys to be awesome for you for years because they are all virtually irreplaceable.

Also, Buster is rated positively defensively, and has a #6 overall floor for 2018 catcher production. He could very well end up # 2 behind Realmuto if he gets hot. https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ter=&players=0

Everyone agrees with you guys catcher deals are risky, and if the disagreement is some of us like Realmuto to hold up by his body type over 5 years compared to others saying nah that's risky he's still a catcher, cool? That's a reasonable for and against position and no one is coming after you guys. Reasonable minds can disagree.

But, the problem is all this stupidity you two are posting that IS NOT that. Catchers are replaceable, posting Buster's HR are worth $4 million each, saying no team has ever been built around a catcher and then bring up Johnny Bench in a positive manner, relying on 1 piece of pizza (SB rates) rather than the whole pie in evaluating catcher defense, suggesting World Series wins aren't that important and double down on HR/RBI as effective offensive stats. It's like you went to the Sarah Palin Baseball School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to Do Other Stuff Good Too. I mean the fuck guys.

I posted the most comprehensive evaluation of catcher defense (the whole pie as you say) I could locate and you choose to ignore it. That's up to you.

[fish16]

I'm going to dedicate five minutes to relaying an example of your thoughtful contribution to the forum and humanity.

fish 16, one month ago: "Its crazy that Justin Twine has relentlessly failed his way up to AA."

My response: "I watched Twine at Jupiter a few times. He looks like an excellent prospect to me, despite the modest (very modest) stats. He and Nelson stuck out as the "special" talents on a very meager roster. Nelson is just starting to hit. Twine is a couple years older."

fish 16: "You know absolutely nothing about player evaluation."

My response: "You've told me that a dozen times. I've watched the guy play ... you clearly haven't."

fish 16: "you watching him play once doesnt make up for 5 years of sample size of him being a truly terrible player. He is a career .598 OPS hitter with 439 k's to 63 walks. Truly one of the worst players in the minors who wasnt released solely due to his draft status."

rational intervention from geemoney: "What in particular impressed you about Twine?"

My response: "Ultra athletic and stands out among the rest. Watching Tampa Bay vs. New York on TV tonight I had a comparable feeling about Andujar. He was the most special quick-twitch player on the field. That's Twine. Five slow years of development aside, he is 10 for 18 since being promoted to AA."

fish 16 back again: " 5 years of sample size vs 5 games. You are the gift that keeps on giving."

There you have it. All that bullshit when the correct response was: Hope you're right about Twine! After all,
we're all hoping for the best, aren't we?

The point of the board isnt just to cheer like homers about every player. If you make stupid posts with horrible logic, it will probably be called out here. As evidenced by this thread.

[lou]

I posted the most comprehensive evaluation of catcher defense (the whole pie as you say) I could locate and you choose to ignore it. That's up to you.

Didn't ignore it at all - in fact Fangraphs shows Buster as "25th" in overall catcher defense (minimum 100 PA) which is what I linked to you - but that doesn't mean he's not a positive in the field (clearly is) and what you guys are continually harping on (which it is). Your link shows he's even better than that btw - 19th, so don't try and say I am trying to cherry pick. Likewise, this also ignores "oh wow he is a top 5 catcher in overall production right now and just gave the Giants $250 million in surplus value since drafted." Maybe you'll understand that one of these days and why Buster is great, was super valuable, and still is super valuable. Also, that world series victories matter.

Glad that is the only thing you took in from that also. Maybe you'll set aside your hubris one of these days and realize it's OK being wrong.

[Erick]

"Note, HR/RBI are not it. Adam Dunn is not a better player than Omar Vizquel, despite your brethren refusing to respond to questions when challenged. "

Was there even a challenge? Jonathan Schoop has answered you himself with a really crappy season. The Brewers, desperate for second base help, can't even play him. Adam Dunn and Omar Vizquel? I have no idea what you're even talking about.

So you hate guys with a horrible BB/K, but you're a big Justin Twine fan. I guess the horrible BB/K isn't as big of a deal when the player has no power. Or something

[lou]

So you hate guys with a horrible BB/K, but you're a big Justin Twine fan. I guess the horrible BB/K isn't as big of a deal when the player has no power. Or something

But he SAW Justin Twine play a few games. He got a few hits in them also. The guy LOOKS like a player.

::Twine has a .494 BABIP in Jacksonville this season::

(that is not a typo)

[fish16]

But he SAW Justin Twine play a few games. He got a few hits in them also. The guy LOOKS like a player.

::Twine has a .494 BABIP in Jacksonville this season::

(that is not a typo)

and his k/bb still sucks. He is going to regress incredibly hard.

[Namaste]

Lee Stone is useless. Don’t know why you guys continue to engage him. Let him evaluate players by his own ridiculously and obviously flawed methods if he wants to

Says the guy who had a 7 month pissing contest with Maddawg (and also completely overvalues 95% of the prospects that the Marlins acquired in the off season).

[Finsanity]

You realize how stupid that first "point" is right, because if you look at baseball from a macro level, every player is replaceable by that argument because some other team will have a superior player versus a shitty starter somewhere and you can use that as a way of justifying that position isn't important because a team still WINS without it. This is your logic - the 2018 Indians have gotten .7 WAR from 1B this season. 1B is replaceable and you should never devote money to 1B. It has nothing to do with Lindor, Bauer, Kluber, and J. Ramirez being awesome. It has everything to do with, you can win without a 1B. Never spend on 1B. They are replaceable commodities.

I'm not sure how you two are having a disconnect here, but is the player good? Do they give you good value for a contract? Buster of course has given the Giants $250 million in surplus value, so flatly saying he is replaceable because he's a catcher, or he has a few less RBI then 155 game starters, or throws out a few less runners 5 years into a contract, is idiotic when he has provided the Giants so much. The Giants have profited so tremendously off of him it's outrageous. That kind of player - wherever the fuck they play - is irreplaceable. And to get it at catcher, holy fucking shit, because it's easier to find guys literally everywhere else. This swings back to, you're going to not sign a player for 4 ultra prime years because you may get him at 70% of his peal production value at the back end of the deal? You're going to not sign a guy that's going to give you that much surplus value because you're scared they may be bad the last year or two? You don't want to pay a guy to create a contending window? All of that is beyond dumb and exactly what you don't want to do when developing a contending team. You sign Buster. You sign Miguel Cabrera. You sign Jose Ramirez. You sign Mike Trout. You sign all of these guys to be awesome for you for years because they are all virtually irreplaceable.

Also, Buster is rated positively defensively, and has a #6 overall floor for 2018 catcher production. He could very well end up # 2 behind Realmuto if he gets hot. https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ter=&players=0

Everyone agrees with you guys catcher deals are risky, and if the disagreement is some of us like Realmuto to hold up by his body type over 5 years compared to others saying nah that's risky he's still a catcher, cool? That's a reasonable for and against position and no one is coming after you guys. Reasonable minds can disagree.

But, the problem is all this stupidity you two are posting that IS NOT that. Catchers are replaceable, posting Buster's HR are worth $4 million each, saying no team has ever been built around a catcher and then bring up Johnny Bench in a positive manner, relying on 1 piece of pizza (SB rates) rather than the whole pie in evaluating catcher defense, suggesting World Series wins aren't that important and double down on HR/RBI as effective offensive stats. It's like you went to the Sarah Palin Baseball School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to Do Other Stuff Good Too. I mean the fuck guys.

I tried to read this post, but got bored pretty quickly and just glossed over it. The $250 surplus value thing seems gigantically vague and subjective, but I don't want to bring that up for fear of a vague and subjective rebuttal. My favorite part was the "You sign Buster. You sign Miguel Cabrera...". Actually, there are MILLIONS of reasons you don't sign those guys. Miguel Cabrera? Oh my shit. Does he even play any more? He certainly is getting paid to - to the tune of $31M/season for the next FIVE years. I mean, he did hit .240 last year with a (you'll love this one) - a WAR of -.08. He did get his WAR up to +0.5 this year in the 38 games he played. But you HAVE to pay Cabrera, because when he was 12, he got a ring in FL. What's that done for Detroit? If the Marlins had to essentially pay the Yankees $50M to take on the contract of a young and still productive reigning MVP... what might it take for the Tigers to get Cabrera's owed $154M off their books? Albert Pujols? You have to sign him too?

That was the inane part of your post, the rest was just blather. This discussion began with - if it was in fact true that Soto was offered for Realmuto toward the deadline this year, I believed Soto was the pick. Risk of position health/longevity, team control, etc... doesn't mean I don't like Realmuto. I backed my point by noting that even the top two catchers of the last decade have put up unspectacular offensive statistics (Posey's 2012 a notable exception) - and Molina's defense is top notch (Posey's isn't - sorry). Then I showed that all the division leaders this year (save the Cubs) had backstops most fans have never heard of... Your comeback is blah, blah, WAR, blah, blah, you're stupid. And as I reflect on the couple of minutes I just spent typing this... I'm beginning to agree with you.