Marlins trade Justin Bour to Phillies

[Finsanity]

Its almost as if home runs are not the only statistic in baseball.

Nope, it's WAR, the stat the Fangraphs apologizes for as a guess as to how a AAA may or may not do in the place of someone. Kind of.

Real production is the myth.

[Todd]

Is there a reason you think WAR is a "guess"?

[Erick]

[QUOTE=Finsanity;393821]

Correct. They mortgaged their future and are paying the price long term. Big markets are a different animal, Boston can afford to pay Rusney Castillo $72M for nothing... but that's not a route I'd want to go.

They won 3 World Series with Posey.

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Nope, it's WAR, the stat the Fangraphs apologizes for as a guess as to how a AAA may or may not do in the place of someone. Kind of.

Real production is the myth.

You don’t like WAR. Do you like World Series wins? The Giants won 3 with Posey as their best position player.

[Finsanity]

[QUOTE=Todd;393836]

Posey is not a subpar defensive catcher. By any stretch. He has been well above average this year, just like he always has been. And he is still hitting .290 with a .361 OBO. Had a drop in power this year.

Where do you two get your information from? Like I dont undetstand how you evaluate players because you dont seem to know anything about the game.

Posey is 46th in SB% against this season, which isn't the end-all measure... but it's not good. And I'm just saying that, because there aren't even 46 teams.

If you and I were competing owners, I'd be very happy you owed Posey $22M over the next three and not me.

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Is there a reason you think WAR is a "guess"?

Why, yes I do. And thanks for asking. Straight from FANGRAPHS:

"WAR is not meant to be a perfectly precise indicator of a player’s contribution, but rather an estimate of their value to date. Given the imperfections of some of the available data and the assumptions made to calculate other components, WAR works best as an approximation."

WAR has all the precision of prospect "lists," but some folks want to use it as gospel.

[Namaste]

I prefer Batting Average

[lou]

If you and I were competing owners, I'd be very happy you owed Posey $22M over the next three and not me.

Buster Posey has as many world series rings as the Los Angeles Dodgers, Colorado Rockies, Arizona Diamondbacks, and San Diego Padres - combined - from 1966-2017. That's close to 150 combined seasons of baseball.

But let's not pay a still well above average 3 WAR player at the back end of his prime because he used to be a 5 WAR player. Mortgages the future ya'll

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Why, yes I do. And thanks for asking. Straight from FANGRAPHS:

"WAR is not meant to be a perfectly precise indicator of a player’s contribution, but rather an estimate of their value to date. Given the imperfections of some of the available data and the assumptions made to calculate other components, WAR works best as an approximation."

WAR has all the precision of prospect "lists," but some folks want to use it as gospel.

Want to propose something else that is easy to digest on a message board for spit balling purposes?

Note, HR/RBI are not it. Adam Dunn is not a better player than Omar Vizquel, despite your brethren refusing to respond to questions when challenged.

Also note solely throwing out runners stealing is not a way to evaluate catcher's defense, as Buster Posey is still an above-average defensive catcher.

Truth is Truth.

[Lee Stone]

"Note, HR/RBI are not it. Adam Dunn is not a better player than Omar Vizquel, despite your brethren refusing to respond to questions when challenged. "

Was there even a challenge? Jonathan Schoop has answered you himself with a really crappy season. The Brewers, desperate for second base help, can't even play him. Adam Dunn and Omar Vizquel? I have no idea what you're even talking about.

[fish16]

Lee Stone is useless. Dont know why you guys continue to engage him. Let him evaluate players by his own ridiculously and obviously flawed methods if he wants to

[Finsanity]

Buster Posey has as many world series rings as the Los Angeles Dodgers, Colorado Rockies, Arizona Diamondbacks, and San Diego Padres - combined - from 1966-2017. That's close to 150 combined seasons of baseball.

Or... maybe the best team ERA in the league played a small part?

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Lee Stone is useless. Dont know why you guys continue to engage him. Let him evaluate players by his own ridiculously and obviously flawed methods if he wants to

Where's your analysis, friend? You seem to have this thing figured out, let's hear from you.

[lou]

"Note, HR/RBI are not it. Adam Dunn is not a better player than Omar Vizquel, despite your brethren refusing to respond to questions when challenged. "

Was there even a challenge? Jonathan Schoop has answered you himself with a really crappy season. The Brewers, desperate for second base help, can't even play him. Adam Dunn and Omar Vizquel? I have no idea what you're even talking about.

You do have no idea what others are talking about. We can agree there.

You said, no player in the history of baseball has ever had a successful season with a BB/K rate that was lower than 1/4. Schoop did it last year. So do you finally admit you were wrong and that player's can be productive at such a rate? Who cares what he is doing this year. These are your words, so do you stand by being wrong, or can admit you said a stupid thing?

You keep bringing up HR/RBI, so I asked you if you think Adam Dunn had a better career than Omar Vizquel. Whose the better player?

[fish16]

Or... maybe the best team ERA in the league played a small part?

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Where's your analysis, friend? You seem to have this thing figured out, let's hear from you.

Giving my analysis to you would be a complete waste of my time. You have no idea what you are talking about and your analysis is straight from the 60's and 70's of baseball.

[Finsanity]

Giving my analysis to you would be a complete waste of my time. You have no idea what you are talking about and your analysis is straight from the 60's and 70's of baseball.

LMAO. That is CLASSIC. Thank you for that. Providing your analysis would be a waste of your time... Yet, you're able to break free from your hectic schedule to ridicule others.

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You do have no idea what others are talking about. We can agree there.

You said, no player in the history of baseball has ever had a successful season with a BB/K rate that was lower than 1/4. Schoop did it last year. So do you finally admit you were wrong and that player's can be productive at such a rate? Who cares what he is doing this year. These are your words, so do you stand by being wrong, or can admit you said a stupid thing?

You keep bringing up HR/RBI, so I asked you if you think Adam Dunn had a better career than Omar Vizquel. Whose the better player?

I think a comparison of SS, or 1B might be better served?

[lou]

Or... maybe the best team ERA in the league played a small part?

So Buster Posey had no impact on the Giants winning any world series, and a replacement level catcher would have produced the same results. Yes or no please.

Also, I think it's very amusing you keep lamenting that throwing runners out is the primary defensive catcher stat, and then bring up team ERA which is very dependent on pitch framing. I wonder what player on the Giants is really good at that and makes his pitchers pitch better?

You guys are really something else.

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I think a comparison of SS, or 1B might be better served?

So positions matter in baseball now?

[Finsanity]

So Buster Posey had no impact on the Giants winning any world series, and a replacement level catcher would have produced the same results. Yes or no please.

Also, I think it's very amusing you keep lamenting that throwing runners out is the primary defensive catcher stat, and then bring up team ERA which is very dependent on pitch framing. I wonder what player on the Giants is really good at that and makes his pitchers pitch better?

You guys are really something else.

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So positions matter in baseball now?

Posey's offensive numbers are very consistent across the board - season to season. Agreed? So, it's probably safe to assume his "pitch framing" is pretty consistent as well? Why then did the Giants go from a team ERA of first and second in the league in 2010 & 2011 to 22nd in 2013? And if Posey is to credit for the Giants success, and his production is consistent season to season, then why did the Giants ebb and flow so drastically in even and odd years?

No one ever said Posey was a "bad" player. You're going to have to come to grips with that at some point. Was he solely responsible for the Giants rings? Of course not. Could they have won those without him? Of course they could have.

[lou]

Posey's offensive numbers are very consistent across the board - season to season. Agreed? So, it's probably safe to assume his "pitch framing" is pretty consistent as well? Why then did the Giants go from a team ERA of first and second in the league in 2010 & 2011 to 22nd in 2013? And if Posey is to credit for the Giants success, and his production is consistent season to season, then why did the Giants ebb and flow so drastically in even and odd years?

No one ever said Posey was a "bad" player. You're going to have to come to grips with that at some point. Was he solely responsible for the Giants rings? Of course not. Could they have won those without him? Of course they could have.

Posey is the best catcher of the last decade, yes he's "pretty consistent" in that. And maybe because Cain and Lincecum fell apart? That doesn't change Buster's defensive skills and his contributions as a player. Jesus christ. They don't win any world series without him. He's that impactful.

You said Buster is replaceable - along with all other catchers because they aren't a necessary position. You're going to have to come to grips with how fucking stupid that is. I'm glad you have come around to Buster moving up from "replaceable" to "not bad." Progress.