2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[fish16]

If we ignore Jose Berrios, Luis Castillo, Frankie Montas, and other SP trades, yes Pablo has no value. But if we live in this reality, he is fine. What are you complaining about here, the third guy in a deal for Pablo is going to be FV40 versus FV40+ this offseason or next deadline? This is what the complaint is? You have no perspective here. None. You are emotional and frustrated they suck.

They also shouldn't resign Pablo. He needed to be bought out before this explosion. He costs more than Sandy now so no thanks.

Malpractice is defending Lewis Brinson in 2021.

A Gallen/Jazz trade is most probable in offseason.

They should have probably moved Floro/Okert (at least one) and Cooper though. But what were they going to get, more FV40 guys? Not a big deal here. I think we just learned today a lot of the guys like Cartaya, Moreno, Campusano, Peraza, etc. were pipe dreams.

I didn't say he has no value, the complaint is that they have nothing to gain and everything to lose by waiting till the offseason to trade him. His value isn't getting higher by staying healthy the next 2 months and he has never even proven he can stay healthy a full season and it's a great possibility they just blew the best opportunity they had to add a major influx of hitting talent. IF it's not multiple pieces, it's one huge piece. To not do it yet again is a fucking disgrace and complete mismanagement.

I said if you shop a guy for 2 years and continue to not get what you're asking, you're asking for too much and overvaluing your own player. They continue to try to find an overpay and wont trade him unless they get an overpay.. He is the piece to move, they've been trying to move him for 2 years, and they continue to fail to pull the trigger on these big deals because no one is overpaying them or blowing them away. Which is dumb. Get the best value you can and move the fucking guy for some bats already, or keep him, let him keep risking injury and getting closer to free agency, and continue to be unable to field a major league lineup. He has enough value where you can get two upper minors prospects for him, and they needed to do it today. they can still do it in the offseason, but there is literally 0 upside in not doing it today and nothing but risk to wait until the offseason when he;s never proven he can pitch a full season to his point/

[fish16]

Cabrera graduated but would be top 100.

You're making an argument of why to keep Pablo as a # 2 SP. Also it is VERY - VERY - debateable if he'd get multiple lineup pieces immediately. If he WAS going to get that, they WOULD have done that. The deals must have sucked. No deal is better than a bad one. You need to understand that or shut up.

Again, there shouldn't be an extension. She is RIGHT. You can though criticize them for not signing him to a deal BEFORE this season if you want. Seems risky so I don't blame them with the SP depth. Meyer being hurt changes this equation with hindsight bias.

The Dodgers are past the super 2 deadline and contending. Calling up ANYONE is fair game right now. Jesus christ. If you want to be mad go for it, but you've lost the little objectivity you have.

by mid 100's I meant Cabrera was in the middle of the top 100, that was phrased poorly. They needed to take the best offer they got. they have failed to pull the trigger for 3 full years now on literally any deal to trade some of the pitching depth for hitting. if it's not pablo, I don't give a flying fuck, but I'm tired of looking at the pitching depth on paper and saying they can use it to find hitting. it's been painfully obvious since they did the jazz for gallen deal at the deadline in 2019 that they needed more still. To go through yet another offseason and trade deadline of failing to use it to build a competent team that can field a competent lineup is a failure of the highest degree.

We have had this pitching depth for 4 fucking years, and still just 1 move from a previous front office that netted quite literally the only guy in year 5 of a rebuild that they can pencil into the lineup next year.

We're in year 5 of a fucking rebuild and we're 20 games under .500 against every team other than the nationals. We need to have been trying to contend 3 months ago when it was obvious the lineup was shit and the bullpen wasn't enough. But they did absolutely nothing yet again, let the season go to shit without even making the slightest effort to improve this team somehow, and yet they are still going to sit there and try to act like they are trying to win. They needed to make a move a month ago at the very latest when they were in it. We were right behind the philies not long ago while looking at an easy schedule, and they did not do a single thing to help this ball club in their clear deficient areas. This team and Ng specifically have proven to be failures of the highest order. Today was the end of the line for her today in my opinion, you cant bring her back and Mattingly back and sit there with a straight face and tell me you're doing what it takes to win.

[fish16]

So basically, you're saying all these guys suck with the left hand, and with the right hand they need to trade them all for upgrades.

Cool.

No, I'm saying they have talent that has value on paper, but it's just that, on paper. They all have talent, but as a whole for next year, that's not impressive or anything that can be relied on as a quality rotation. Basically what I'm saying is what I've been saying for several hours and several years: MAKE THE FUCKING MOVE ALREADY and trade some of the depth for hitters. Even if they all pan out at their ceiling, we have one of the hardest lineups to watch I've ever seen. 5 sandy's in a rotation couldn't win with this shit. They horde pitching prospects that will never all pan out or get healthy at the same time instead of making a f critical decision and trading 2 of them for hitters. I'm tired of looking at pitching depth on paper with a lineup that has 8 retreads in it on a nightly basis. MAKE A DECISION and get some hitting, and stop talking to me about this bullshit pitching depth. Pitching depth doesn't mean shit when you're fielding a lineup with rojas, aguilar, stallings, garcia, and de la Cruz on a nightly basis. They need to make a decision already on which ones are keepers and which ones can improve the lineup in a trade. 3 years of looking at pitching depth on paper is enough already.

[lou]

I can't even respond or really read this.

Let me try another way.

Nothing - NOTHING - they can ever hope to accomplish will match Soto/Machado/Tatis/Cronenworth or Acuna/Ozzie/Riley/Olson. NOTHING. We're talking Berry must be JD Martinez. Bleday must be Brian Giles. Jazz must be 2022 always. And I guess Jose Salas(?) must be Manny Machado to get close to this. And/or Bruce has to spend real money! I'll take the under on any of those happening.

What they can do is pitch.

They absolutely need bats.

Pablo is not the only way to do it. And this is ignoring the could trade Pablo this offseason for effectively the same centerpieces. He has 2 years of control. He is immensely valuable. Probably one of the top 50-75 players in baseball in value or so.

You really got to chill here until opening day. And frankly, the anger should be directed at BRUCE IMO. He is the gatekeeper.

Up payroll to $110m and sign Correa and Nimmo and these problems go away. And yes, they can fit those guys into $110 if they get rid of three of Cooper, Anderson, Berti, Rojas, Wendle, Floro, and Stalling this offseason. Only 3 of them. Any 3. Absent that, the only path is absolute SP domination with what they have. This is a fair point I think you can appreciate.

[sports24/7]

I think it’s unrealistic to expect a Gallen/Jazz type trade again, and especially for it to work out. Those trades are pretty rare, and while the Marlins tried to pull off something kind of similar with Meyer/Marsh, it’s probably a very good thing the Angels turned them down.

As for a Pablo extension, if you’re going to trade him in the off-season, ok, don’t extend him. If you’re not going to do that, you might as well just accept he’s gone in two years if you don’t, because he probably won’t want to negotiate a year away from FA, and if he hits the open market, does anyone think Miami will be competitive unless his value goes down significantly in the next two years? But either way, wouldn’t it behoove Ng to at least feign interest in re-signing him instead of basically saying they’re not even talking about it? On top of doing a pretty bad job so far at adding talent, she’s just so bad in front of a microphone.

[sports24/7]

Eury Perez is up to 4th in Fangraphs' top prospects. They have him as the best pitching prospect in baseball. Interestingly enough, they also have Salas 81, and Berry at 101.

The Marlins may be dumb about a lot of things, but they might have just been right about how good and valuable Perez is going to be.

[lou]

Eury Perez is up to 4th in Fangraphs' top prospects. They have him as the best pitching prospect in baseball. Interestingly enough, they also have Salas 81, and Berry at 101.

The Marlins may be dumb about a lot of things, but they might have just been right about how good and valuable Perez is going to be.

And Cabrera 100 (knocked down because hurt mid season).

And Meyer booted out of it to a 45+ which is effectively their 100-150 tier. Eder, Cappe, and Lewis (in that order, I believe Cappe jumped Lewis) are also in this tier. Very solid group and will explode with health and another year with what Cappe/Lewis doing.

They don't like Groshans anywhere near others who are putting him in the top 100, but I do like he is one of the two (Fulton) "low" risk prospects in the system. The Marlins always draft ceiling ceiling ceiling which does work out sometimes (Stanton because unknown contact rates, Realmuto because athleticism low pick catcher, Fernandez because high school pitchers are risky always, Yelich who was risky because would power ever come, etc.), but SOME kind of mix would be appreciated. Speaking of Groshans, ZIPS projections are around 325 PA in 2023 and 2024 with.... 1.2 and 1.6 WAR totals. Batting like .250/.315/.415. Raise that PA total and that's perhaps a 2-2.5 WAR starter playing excellent IF defense somewhere, whether that be at SS if he makes it there, 3B, or maybe he becomes their Chris Taylor. Hopefully this happens because that will be really nice to be club controlled 2023-2025, and he'd be a super2 in 2026 if they do it right. For Fulton, a low risk 4/5 SP or funky delivery plus bulk reliever also is very appreciated.

Also, Watson was downgraded to a FV40+ because he can't hit, Miller entered as a FV40+ which is very good for a 2nd rounder. Watson is the biggest faller and is very disappointing. He's effectively probably not a trade asset at this time, so it's Salas or bust for a premium piece they could move.

[lou]

I think it’s unrealistic to expect a Gallen/Jazz type trade again, and especially for it to work out. Those trades are pretty rare, and while the Marlins tried to pull off something kind of similar with Meyer/Marsh, it’s probably a very good thing the Angels turned them down.

As for a Pablo extension, if you’re going to trade him in the off-season, ok, don’t extend him. If you’re not going to do that, you might as well just accept he’s gone in two years if you don’t, because he probably won’t want to negotiate a year away from FA, and if he hits the open market, does anyone think Miami will be competitive unless his value goes down significantly in the next two years? But either way, wouldn’t it behoove Ng to at least feign interest in re-signing him instead of basically saying they’re not even talking about it? On top of doing a pretty bad job so far at adding talent, she’s just so bad in front of a microphone.

It is a good thing the Angels turned it down - Marsh has a good target for sure.

I don't think any contract talk matters. Pablo's agent already knows and it hasn't happened. It speaks for itself. It's also the middle of the season. I don't think we need to criticize every passing comment they make just because the team is not winning 88 games right now.

[lou]

They keep everyone team is $83+m for those wondering. I refuse to put a name for a center fielder.

Fortes, Stallings ($2.75)
Cooper ($4.25)
Jazz, Berti ($2.25)
Wendle ($6), Rojas ($5)
Anderson ($4.75)
Bleday
______, Sanchez
Garcia ($12)
Soler ($15)

Sandy, Pablo ($6), Luzardo ($1.5+), Rogers, Cabrera, Garrett
Floro ($3.5), Bender, Poteet, Hernandez ($1.5)
Bleier (3.5), Scott ($2), Okert ($1)

OOO - Lewin. He makes the team or is gone

40 man options of note - Henry, Williams, Groshans, Burdick, DLC (has option), and maybe Troy Johnston sneaks on here for the bats over Jerar, Sixto, Neidert, Soriano, Nardi. They likely have 4-6 40 man spots to give on top of this. Probably all for relievers that are not currently in the organization.


If you ditch Cooper for Lewin, Anderson for Williams (and Groshans later), and Hernandez for Neidert/Sixto/option arms, you get this to $75m.

So the easiest path is ditching Rojas on top of that, going to $110m like Milwaukee and signing Correa/Swanson/Xander/Trea and Nimmo. I think those 2 guys can be had for $40m combined with some backloading a year or three, or giving good opt out options.

Assuming that doesn't happen, it's probably ditching Rojas and Berti, getting a CC backup SS to bide time to Groshans (this saves $6.5... so we're down to $69m....) and maybe just maybe, Bruce will let them spend $90m and Nimmo/Swanson can fit into that outright.... with the other SS/CF piece needed coming from trading Salas and friends. I'd imagine this is a better than Groshans player and that would be good on paper.

If payroll is going to be lower than that, it's probably just running with that $75m team, Salas and friends turn into a CF, and maybe you move one of Floro/Okert/Scott if possible to open up a little more payroll, and then go for an upgraded $5-7m pitcher instead of one of them which is the "$80m" team. Then reassessing at the deadline. See what Eury/Eder/Berry/Sixto and roster does and what is needed.


Love the $110m team.
Mostly like the $90m.
The $80m team is an extension of this season and everything must go right to then add at the deadline.

Bruce is the problem.

[sports24/7]

It is a good thing the Angels turned it down - Marsh has a good target for sure.

I don't think any contract talk matters. Pablo's agent already knows and it hasn't happened. It speaks for itself. It's also the middle of the season. I don't think we need to criticize every passing comment they make just because the team is not winning 88 games right now.

Right. That’s why I don’t know that I live the idea of that type of trade again. They’re rare, and very risky, and I don’t know that I trust the organization to accurately judge prospects. We heard how much they thought Harrison and Diaz were going to be stars.

If the plan is to keep Pablo, I think they should absolutely be trying to extend him now, or it’s not going to get done. But I do think you need some tact there, and my criticism of Ng’s comments have less to do with their record, and more to do with her constantly sticking her foot in her mouth (“we aren’t built to hit much”, “Garcia is a multi 30-HR player”, “it’s not working out because of bad luck”, etc).

[sports24/7]

Some rumors out there that the Marlins wanted Lux and prospects from LA; and Torres and prospects from NYY. I’m curious what the offers were. Prospects could mean anything, and I like that they were shooting for that with LA, but I’m curious what the counter was. Like, if they were looking more at prospects, but those prospects were Pages and Vargas, that would be frustrating that they turned it down. Hopefully they can rekindle these talks in the off-season.

Barry and Mish also reported they had offers for Garcia and Aguilar but didn’t like them. One deal for Garcia was apparently Marcel Ozuna, which would be a hard no, but I wonder if they were all bad deal swaps, or if there was some ego involved in not wanting to dump Garcia for little return. I’d hope the former.

[fish16]

Lux and any one of those prospects we were talking about for Pablo is so stupid to turn down. Obviously it depends on the prospect but that’s unbelievably stupid if it was pages, Vargas or Busch.

Ozuna for Garcia is a no brainer. Off the field stuff aside, he’s a significantly better player and his last year is a club option just like Garcia. More stupidity.

could have traded Pablo and Garcia for Ozuna, lux, and pages/Busch/Vargas. Another failure to pull the trigger setting is back. Complete incompetence. I mentioned lux yesterday as a guy they should be going after. Lux was the #1 prospect in baseball, cheap for years to come, and has been good in the big league. Him and Jazz can be your middle infield for years to come, plus you might have been able to get a busch or vargas.

This is what we're looking at next year with those moves

C- Fortes
1b- Lewin
2b- Jazz
SS- Lux
3b- Vargas/Busch
LF- Ozuna
CF- Bleday
RF- Soler? or Sanchez
DH- Cooper
SP- Sandy, Eury, Cabrera, Rogers, Luzardo, plus sixto, garrett, and eder as other options.

That is a such an improvement. Just such incompetence. If that was the offers available and they didn't do it, this team is doomed due to awful management.

[fish16]

Lamet DFA'd by the brewers after acquiring him for Hader. If he hits free agency and they can get him for the rest of the year and next year for relatively cheap, they absolutely should. Bad year but he is the exact type of starting depth they need when injuries always hit.

[sports24/7]

Lux and any one of those prospects we were talking about for Pablo is so stupid to turn down. Obviously it depends on the prospect but that’s unbelievably stupid if it was pages, Vargas or Busch.

Ozuna for Garcia is a no brainer. Off the field stuff aside, he’s a significantly better player and his last year is a club option just like Garcia. More stupidity.

could have traded Pablo and Garcia for Ozuna, lux, and pages/Busch/Vargas. Another failure to pull the trigger setting is back. Complete incompetence. I mentioned lux yesterday as a guy they should be going after. Lux was the #1 prospect in baseball, cheap for years to come, and has been good in the big league. Him and Jazz can be your middle infield for years to come, plus you might have been able to get a busch or vargas.

This is what we're looking at next year with those moves

C- Fortes
1b- Lewin
2b- Jazz
SS- Lux
3b- Vargas/Busch
LF- Ozuna
CF- Bleday
RF- Soler? or Sanchez
DH- Cooper
SP- Sandy, Eury, Cabrera, Rogers, Luzardo, plus sixto, garrett, and eder as other options.

That is a such an improvement. Just such incompetence. If that was the offers available and they didn't do it, this team is doomed due to awful management.

For the record, the Marlins apparently wanted Lux and three prospects. I’d imagine it didn’t get done because the Dodgers balked at that. I hope so, at least. It wasn’t that the Dodgers were offering than and Miami said no. And if Lux was in the deal, I don’t see any way another one of their top prospects were in it as well. That would be way more than what the market appeared to be for a good SP.

[fish16]

For the record, the Marlins apparently wanted Lux and three prospects. I’d imagine it didn’t get done because the Dodgers balked at that. I hope so, at least. It wasn’t that the Dodgers were offering than and Miami said no. And if Lux was in the deal, I don’t see any way another one of their top prospects were in it as well. That would be way more than what the market appeared to be for a good SP.

lux is enough. whatever prospects were gravy. Lux is going to be an absolute stud. that's the kind of centerpiece you get for pablo. #1 prospect in baseball a year or 2 ago. id imagine the other prospect might have been outman who just made his debut a few days ago and homered. anything else in the top 30 would be enough. lux has 4 more years of team control after this year. him as the centerpiece for pablo is exactly what you're looking for. not taking advantage of that and finally capitalizing on the pitching depth is so fucking stupid.