2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[lou]

This team can compete as it is this year if one of these guys can play a passable centerfield with the pitching they have and they don’t have to decimate the depth they’ve built to acquire a bat who in my opinion might make them better this year but none of these guys you mentioned is putting this team over the edge. If you can get a star like Jose Ramirez, I’m down to deal any of these guys, but Ramon Laureano doesn’t put this team over the top.

let the first half of the year play out and then if it doesn’t work by the deadline then make a deal. I think this offense is already tremendously improved from last year. Doesn’t mean they are a top tier offense but they’ve added stallings, wendle, a healthy Cooper and Anderson, soler, and Garcia, and you still have jazz and Jesus Sanchez who can realistically be expected to take another step. I don’t think this need for a pure center fielder is as dire as you make it out to be if any of these guys can just not be an albatross defensively

plus id like to see more from burdick and bleday to see if you have an internal option less than a year away without having to trade away 6 years of multiple team controlled starting pitchers who are top of the rotation talents

No they can't compete without someone else - they need a star or a collection of a few upgrades

Trading 4 of their top 9 prospects doesn't decimate depth, with everyone on club controlled years, and top draft picks

Reynolds had a 5.5 WAR last year and would replace Delino DeShields or Garrett Cooper platooning in the OF, and not miscasting Sanchez/Garcia in CF. Ramirez had a 6.3 WAR last year and would replace Rojas (2.5+ WAR player) and Jazz (likely a 2+ WAR player with room to grow). Reynolds is a larger upgrade than Ramirez with more years of control. So Jose Ramirez comment is baffling. Likewise Laureano/Kemp/Trivino do the same thing. They replace 0s or negative positional arrangements, not a 2+ WAR guy. The Marlins get WAY more bang for their buck with a CF. Reynolds puts them over the top faster than Ramirez and you gotta understand that even if in a vacuum Ramirez is better.

We let 4 years play out - NO. Fuck them. There is no more first half of the season with Sandy, Rogers, Pablo, and a looming Luzardo breakout

Offense is better, it needs the final piece. As well as a luxury RP upgrade would be nice.

You are wrong, they need a longterm CF or excellent stopgap (Kiermaier)

If Bleday and Burdick were CF, we'd know. They'd have gotten a 3 month guy like Kiermaier to bridge.


I will eat all the crow if Sanchez/Garcia pull it off, and then I will start radically questioning why they didn't spend more on a SP/RP upgrade as payroll is still EGREGIOUSLY low post TV/naming rights/4 year of low payrolls/etc.

Read the Miami Herald article. Everyone feels that way. Everyone.

[fish16]

No they can't compete without someone else - they need a star or a collection of a few upgrades

Trading 4 of their top 9 prospects doesn't decimate depth, with everyone on club controlled years, and top draft picks

Reynolds had a 5.5 WAR last year and would replace Delino DeShields or Garrett Cooper platooning in the OF, and not miscasting Sanchez/Garcia in CF. Ramirez had a 6.3 WAR last year and would replace Rojas (2.5+ WAR player) and Jazz (likely a 2+ WAR player with room to grow). Reynolds is a larger upgrade than Ramirez with more years of control. So Jose Ramirez comment is baffling. Likewise Laureano/Kemp/Trivino do the same thing. They replace 0s or negative positional arrangements, not a 2+ WAR guy. The Marlins get WAY more bang for their buck with a CF. Reynolds puts them over the top faster than Ramirez and you gotta understand that even if in a vacuum Ramirez is better.

We let 4 years play out - NO. Fuck them. There is no more first half of the season with Sandy, Rogers, Pablo, and a looming Luzardo breakout

Offense is better, it needs the final piece. As well as a luxury RP upgrade would be nice.

You are wrong, they need a longterm CF or excellent stopgap (Kiermaier)

If Bleday and Burdick were CF, we'd know. They'd have gotten a 3 month guy like Kiermaier to bridge.


I will eat all the crow if Sanchez/Garcia pull it off, and then I will start radically questioning why they didn't spend more on a SP/RP upgrade as payroll is still EGREGIOUSLY low post TV/naming rights/4 year of low payrolls/etc.

Read the Miami Herald article. Everyone feels that way. Everyone.

Ramirez or Rojas can play 3b, Anderson to corner outfield, Sanchez in cf, soler at dh. I just don’t think reynolds is a consistently 5-6 war guy based off of one year. I think he will settle as a 3-4 war guy, not a superstar level like Ramirez. They’ve upgraded all over the place and having the dh instead of the pitcher spot is a several war offensive upgrade in and of itself. Add Cooper and Anderson healthy, wendle super utility role, and improvements from jazz and Sanchez and in my opinion even with no more additions, that offense is passable enough to compete if the pitching stays healthy.

id go after one more late inning reliever though

[lou]

Ramirez or Rojas can play 3b, Anderson to corner outfield, Sanchez in cf, soler at dh. I just don’t think reynolds is a consistently 5-6 war guy based off of one year. I think he will settle as a 3-4 war guy, not a superstar level like Ramirez. They’ve upgraded all over the place and having the dh instead of the pitcher spot is a several war offensive upgrade in and of itself. Add Cooper and Anderson healthy, wendle super utility role, and improvements from jazz and Sanchez and in my opinion even with no more additions, that offense is passable enough to compete if the pitching stays healthy.

id go after one more late inning reliever though

Sanchez in CF defeats all purposes here.

Also Ramirez costs the same prospects, if not more as he's an infielder and better, than Reynolds. You definitely lose Watson for him.

That being said, I'd move for him but they still need a CF. Kiermaier makes more sense now because they can have a defensive guy if Ramirez bat is coming in.

Anyways none of this will happen and they will trade for a CF in due course.

[fish16]

Sanchez in CF defeats all purposes here.

Also Ramirez costs the same prospects, if not more as he's an infielder and better, than Reynolds. You definitely lose Watson for him.

That being said, I'd move for him but they still need a CF. Kiermaier makes more sense now because they can have a defensive guy if Ramirez bat is coming in.

Anyways none of this will happen and they will trade for a CF in due course.

I don't view centerfield defense as the end of the world if the offense is worth it. If sanchez can be at all passable and just not be jorge julio type bad, I think the offense will be good enough to let the pitching carry us to contention. We just differ on the value of reynolds. I don't see him as being as good as the numbers he put up last year. I think he is a step down from that this year, and he has also graded out terribly defensively himself according to FanGraphs.

Im fine with decimating the farm for ramirez. that's my entire point. Ramirez to me is a significantly better player than Reynolds. We can disagree on that, I just don't see reynolds being 6 WAR good moving forward. He's a really good player and if they get him, I'm obviously not going to be pissed, I just would rather spend the farm on a guy I see being a true superstar in jose ramirez rather than a guy I see being a step or 2 down from that in Reynolds. If we're going to make a huge deal like that, I just want a more consistent track record in the majors. Then you have this year and next year to get an extension done with ramirez and if not, you got 2 years of superstar production from him in a window of contention that is realistic given what he will bring and given the pitching we have.

My biggest thing is not CF defense, its finding the 9 collective guys on offense that give this team the best chance to score enough runs to let the pitching carry us to a wild card spot potentially. I think they have already drastically improved the offense from last year, even if we're still fairly mediocre (just how bad we were last year). A lot rides on Soler, but if they get the good soler and they figure out which of the 3-4 options can be passable defensively in CF, I think they are OK with the offense and I wouldn't deal a ton of prospects for someone unless its a true star, which as I've said we just differ on how good reynolds is, just like didi gregorious from a few years back when we fought over that. He would have made no impact on either of the last 2 years and would be 14.5 million this year if he signed that contract with us.

My whole reasoning behind all of this is that for a small market team like us, the 6 years of team control on guys like Meyer and Cabrera is insanely valuable and unless I'm getting star to superstar level production, id rather let the prospects play out and spend money in free agency. It's ok to differ on opinions of players. And while it is year 5, 2 of those first 4 years are just complete losses. The first year they hadn't had time to get their guys in there yet to rebuild the farm, and then the most important year of all (or what could have been), saw a complete loss of a minor league season due to covid. So while you say 4 years, it's really not truly been a 4 year player development and evaluation process if the world were normal the last few years.

[fish16]

degrom already out for a significant portion of the year. I look forward to how the mets find a way to bungle even them advantage of having an owner with unlimited money. I would have loved signing marte to the deal he wanted last year, but I'm also not terribly upset they didn't sign him to that 4 year deal he ended up signing with them. He's really good, but the last few years of that deal might look very bad.

[rmc523]

This team can compete as it is this year if one of these guys can play a passable centerfield with the pitching they have and they don’t have to decimate the depth they’ve built to acquire a bat who in my opinion might make them better this year but none of these guys you mentioned is putting this team over the edge. If you can get a star like Jose Ramirez, I’m down to deal any of these guys, but Ramon Laureano doesn’t put this team over the top.

let the first half of the year play out and then if it doesn’t work by the deadline then make a deal. I think this offense is already tremendously improved from last year. Doesn’t mean they are a top tier offense but they’ve added stallings, wendle, a healthy Cooper and Anderson, soler, and Garcia, and you still have jazz and Jesus Sanchez who can realistically be expected to take another step. I don’t think this need for a pure center fielder is as dire as you make it out to be if any of these guys can just not be an albatross defensively

plus id like to see more from burdick and bleday to see if you have an internal option less than a year away without having to trade away 6 years of multiple team controlled starting pitchers who are top of the rotation talents

The flip side of this is they may not even be in it if they wait until the deadline months from now…

[lou]

degrom already out for a significant portion of the year. I look forward to how the mets find a way to bungle even them advantage of having an owner with unlimited money. I would have loved signing marte to the deal he wanted last year, but I'm also not terribly upset they didn't sign him to that 4 year deal he ended up signing with them. He's really good, but the last few years of that deal might look very bad.

Even MORE of a reason to trade for a CF. These are the "breaks" the Marlins need to win every last game.

[lou]

The flip side of this is they may not even be in it if they wait until the deadline months from now…

Exactly

[sports24/7]

This team can compete as it is this year if one of these guys can play a passable centerfield with the pitching they have and they don’t have to decimate the depth they’ve built to acquire a bat who in my opinion might make them better this year but none of these guys you mentioned is putting this team over the edge. If you can get a star like Jose Ramirez, I’m down to deal any of these guys, but Ramon Laureano doesn’t put this team over the top.

let the first half of the year play out and then if it doesn’t work by the deadline then make a deal. I think this offense is already tremendously improved from last year. Doesn’t mean they are a top tier offense but they’ve added stallings, wendle, a healthy Cooper and Anderson, soler, and Garcia, and you still have jazz and Jesus Sanchez who can realistically be expected to take another step. I don’t think this need for a pure center fielder is as dire as you make it out to be if any of these guys can just not be an albatross defensively

plus id like to see more from burdick and bleday to see if you have an internal option less than a year away without having to trade away 6 years of multiple team controlled starting pitchers who are top of the rotation talents

Just about everything would have to break right for them to compete this year. I’m not convinced they’re significantly better than they were last year while Marte and Duvall were in the lineup. They need another bat, Badly. Who in this lineup currently scares anyone? And as egregious as it is that they don’t have a real CF, their approach with the bullpen is arguably worse. How have they not spent just a little bit of money to improve a mediocre-at-best group with no real closer?

[rmc523]

Just about everything would have to break right for them to compete this year. I’m not convinced they’re significantly better than they were last year while Marte and Duvall were in the lineup. They need another bat, Badly. Who in this lineup currently scares anyone? And as egregious as it is that they don’t have a real CF, their approach with the bullpen is arguably worse. How have they not spent just a little bit of money to improve a mediocre-at-best group with no real closer?

They needed to make the moves they made, make the trade for a CF
AND
should’ve dropped Correa on top of it all.

[Todd]

I personally think Soler was an awful signing and wouldn't have made that one.

[lou]

Wow. Eury opening in AA

[Namaste]

This team can compete as it is this year if one of these guys can play a passable centerfield with the pitching they have

competing = making the playoffs as far as I’m concerned (especially with the 2022 expanded playoffs).

According to Fangraphs, the Marlins have a 23.1% chance of competing this year as constructed.

there’s still a week to make a move (with options dwindling fast) but at this point in the rebuild (with the assets we have) we should be more like 40% to make the playoffs at the bottom end.

[Lee Stone]

BA (Bad Approach) Anderson gave what I was looking for the last two games. He deliberately and expertly lined two pitches into right field. It's something to watch because his success is entirely dependent upon it (going oppo).

[lou]

Fangraphs went through all position groups and here are Marlins rankings:

C - 8
1B - 18
2B - 22
SS - 18
3B - 21
LF - 10 (Soler/Sanchez/Anderson)
CF - 17 (Sanchez/Garcia)
RF - 14 (Garcia/lots of people)
DH - 15 (Soler/Cooper)

My thoughts are

High - CF
A little high - C, LF
Fair - 1B, SS, RF, DH
A little low - 2B
Low - 3B

They think Jazz needs time to develop a bit basically, Anderson gets hurt and has to play in the OF a bit, and I guess they are not worried about OF defense in general. The rest are self explanatory.

Interestingly - add all these numbers up and it's a 16th average. I think anticipating a middle of the pack/almost middle of the pack position core makes sense.

I think Reynolds/Laureano/Mullins/Hays would scale up CF dramatically, LF and RF via trickle downs of Sanchez/Garcia PA versus getting Soler, DLC, Cooper, and others out of the OF, and 3B by getting Anderson more time there. I think a major move, especially Reynolds could get them to the 12-13 range. That's worth every penny in money and prospects.