2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[lou]

I don't necessarily think it was that they (the FO) didn't understand the value of building a deep org, but more that at every turn, Loria would trade half the farm/good pieces for a "name" regardless of whether that name was washed up or not.

There were a lot of misses - didn't they take Nicolino over Syndergaard, Luis Castillo was thrown away for Latos, Paddack for.... Rodney. You remember the bad ones more, but then you get Pablo Lopez and Miguel Rojas in nothing moves so you can't fault them top to bottom.

Regardless, time to spend. All the excuses are out the window with these arms and open payroll.

[rmc523]

There were a lot of misses - didn't they take Nicolino over Syndergaard, Luis Castillo was thrown away for Latos, Paddack for.... Rodney. You remember the bad ones more, but then you get Pablo Lopez and Miguel Rojas in nothing moves so you can't fault them top to bottom.

Regardless, time to spend. All the excuses are out the window with these arms and open payroll.

Right, and I think those two were Loria-driven moves - especially Rodney......so they had more depth, but it was traded by the owner.

Anywho, like you said, no more excuses.

[fish16]

Right, and I think those two were Loria-driven moves - especially Rodney......so they had more depth, but it was traded by the owner.

Anywho, like you said, no more excuses.

I think its both that they didn't understand the value of building a complete organization from top to bottom and the value of investing in the draft and IFA as a small market team and that loria couldn't stick to a plan for more than a month and according to samson would continuously get taken advantage of by agents who purposely boxed out the front office and talked directly to ;loria and convinced him to do stupid shit. Salty and Buck were both that exact issue.

[fish16]

lou mentioned it earlier when i first brought up buxton but a deal where we could get buxton and then help them off of donaldson's contract would be amazing for our lineup, and they might just say fuck it and burn it down and start a rebuild. you get both of them for pitching prospects and one of the OF's and you have a hell of a team, plus it moves Anderson to corner OF which gets rid of the need for a signing there. That trade + carson kelly and lets compete next year.

Buxton
Jazz
Donaldson
Aguilar
Sanchez
Anderson
Lewin
Kelly
Rojas


That would show the fans a lot with the amount of money they would be taking on there but it would be so worth it.

[rmc523]

A few notes from Mish:

https://twitter.com/CraigMish/status...037523973?s=20

Miami Marlins have informed their Major League athletic training staff members that their contracts will not be renewed in 2022. Per sources.

The Marlins let their major league training staff go.



He also had this concerning message....

https://twitter.com/CraigMish/status...822740996?s=20

I do not think they will overspend which tells me he [Castellanos] won’t be landed. The pivot then is re allocation of the Marte extension in the 40 mil range. I don’t see much more than that being spent.

If this is true that they're only going to "re-allocate" only 40M over x years over x number of guys, that's pathetic, and we're not signing anyone of note.

[Lee Stone]

Seems like extension for Alcantara alone would eat up that $40 million.

[fish16]

Seems like extension for Alcantara alone would eat up that $40 million.

its not 40 million total, its 40 million added to next years payroll. Given that he would just be entering arbitration Sandy likely will be below 10 million next year if there were an extension signed.

[lou]

A few notes from Mish:

https://twitter.com/CraigMish/status...037523973?s=20



The Marlins let their major league training staff go.



He also had this concerning message....

https://twitter.com/CraigMish/status...822740996?s=20




If this is true that they're only going to "re-allocate" only 40M over x years over x number of guys, that's pathetic, and we're not signing anyone of note.

I think it rules out any "big name."

If budget is going to be limited, the best idea is to do 2-3 pitching trades of say Pablo, Meyer, and Eury/Fulton for a C, 2B/SS/3B/maybe another OF, and CF, and then sign a veteran starter to be the # 3 guy for two years.

A lot of variations here. Buxton/Donaldson/Garver. Go for Marsh + Ketel/Kelly or Reynolds/Stallings. Lot of ways to figure it out, and they can add some sort of Jon Gray level starter for sure.

It's placing a large bet on Sixto, Cabrera, Luzardo, and Hernandez throwing 500 innings (can throw in Thompson/Neidert/Garrett/Poteet guys here too). But that's one I can take and wouldn't fault them for seeing if that works.

We'll see. They have a lot of trade assets and a lot of money. It's actually refreshing to think if they fuck this up with everything they have going for them right now, we can stop caring.

[Nick]

If they try to improve the team solely through trades and only increase the payroll by $10-$15 million then that's a failure by the organization. It's not good enough. They've done a good but not great job rebuilding the minor leagues. Certainly not well enough to expect they can build a quality major league roster simply through excess prospect capital.

[fish16]

did some research on potential catchers and there are quite a few options out there that make sense. My first call would be Arizona, let them tell us which one they prefer to deal and make it happen. I would be ecstatic with either one but Carson Kelly I think would be the guy they choose to deal. He would be a phenomenal guy to get. 3 years of team control, great defender who could not have had a better guy to learn from in STL, and the numbers this year were good but even those numbers were brought down by the fact that he broke his wrist mid way through the year and clearly he wasn't fully healthy when he came back. He was amazing to start the year and he has always been a top prospect who just didn't have a spot in St Louis because Molina will be playing till he's 65.

Varsho would be great as well. you literally could not go wrong with either so they would be my first call and given where they are currently you could seemingly get it done with lower level minors talent so as not to impact the current roster or upper minors talent too much.

Mitch Garver also would be an amazing bat to add to the lineup but just given his history he would seem to be a guy who you don't necessarily platoon but also not a guy you start 5 times a week. Not sure if that's durability, defense, or just that the twins had other options but that would scare me slightly. No question his bat would be huge to add to the lineup.

We always focus on getting star level impact talent which is obviously important, but just as important to me is building a team with no black holes in the lineup. That is less of an issue now that the DH is supposed to come back and therefore you don't also have the pitcher spot wasting 3 ab's per game, but I think the Rays are exhibit A as far as building a good complete and capable lineup 1-9 on a budget. When you have an Alfaro playing every day, throw in an injury that forces a sierra or Isan diaz or Panik to play, you all of a sudden put such a burden on the top and middle of the lineup to carry you every single night.

[rmc523]

its not 40 million total, its 40 million added to next years payroll. Given that he would just be entering arbitration Sandy likely will be below 10 million next year if there were an extension signed.

That's not how it reads at all. He said re-allocating Marte's 40M. They weren't offering Marte 40M for 1 year, they offered him 40 TOTAL over 3 years or whatever it was.

[rmc523]

I think it rules out any "big name."

If budget is going to be limited, the best idea is to do 2-3 pitching trades of say Pablo, Meyer, and Eury/Fulton for a C, 2B/SS/3B/maybe another OF, and CF, and then sign a veteran starter to be the # 3 guy for two years.

A lot of variations here. Buxton/Donaldson/Garver. Go for Marsh + Ketel/Kelly or Reynolds/Stallings. Lot of ways to figure it out, and they can add some sort of Jon Gray level starter for sure.

It's placing a large bet on Sixto, Cabrera, Luzardo, and Hernandez throwing 500 innings (can throw in Thompson/Neidert/Garrett/Poteet guys here too). But that's one I can take and wouldn't fault them for seeing if that works.

We'll see. They have a lot of trade assets and a lot of money. It's actually refreshing to think if they fuck this up with everything they have going for them right now, we can stop caring.

I kind of agree here.

[fish16]

If they try to improve the team solely through trades and only increase the payroll by $10-$15 million then that's a failure by the organization. It's not good enough. They've done a good but not great job rebuilding the minor leagues. Certainly not well enough to expect they can build a quality major league roster simply through excess prospect capital.

agreed. I think we have all agreed throughout this rebuild that retooling the organization from the minor leagues, draft, and IFA to the big league roster was needed an important. but we also all agreed that when they did rebuild that talent pool and the team was not far from competing, they would spend the money necessary to take them from a good team to a legitimate contender. This offseason is that time. There are no more excuses they can make. They have arguably a top 5 rotation when healthy, they have a stupid low amount of payroll allocated for next year, and they need 2-3 impact bats one way or another. For them not to spend money at this point in the rebuild would pretty much be the end of any realistic hope that this ownership group will do what it takes to spend to win games.

[rmc523]

If they try to improve the team solely through trades and only increase the payroll by $10-$15 million then that's a failure by the organization. It's not good enough. They've done a good but not great job rebuilding the minor leagues. Certainly not well enough to expect they can build a quality major league roster simply through excess prospect capital.

I also don't see them blowing out the entire farm they've built just to make some trades to help the ML team either - that would take us back to the Loria days.

[fish16]

That's not how it reads at all. He said re-allocating Marte's 40M. They weren't offering Marte 40M for 1 year, they offered him 40 TOTAL over 3 years or whatever it was.

I think its unclear what their overall amount of money to spend is when you see that tweet and then this one:

From his twitter- Yes. I can see that. So if Castellanos takes 20 you have 20-40 left. That’s not a lot. The thing for me is if they don’t land him will they simply press that one someone else ? I say no. So that’s where my low of 40 comes in.