2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[fish16]

Brian Anderson has only played in half of the games in the last 2 years and put up a sub-.700 OPS. The guy has no value.

seriously. its ridiculous. he's not a good player, hasnt been for 2 years, has consistent shoulder injuries, and has been aggressively mediocre for several years now. he didnt pan out. he is at best a 9 hitter on a good team.

[fish16]

I appreciate still fighting while drowning, but seriously get some perspective.

I find it very amusing all of the Marlins role players - who were argued to be very good trade deadline acquisitions and why did idiot Kim not trade them - are now shit and non-tender candidates. Like I said - you need to level out to the middle. They were never an 88 win team and likewise the sky isn't falling. Also please don't cherry pick the stats. Berti has a 2.5 WAR his last 700 PA. Anderson is universally loved by scouts (cite Miami Herald) and think he's a solid starter when healthy, but best used as a #6/7 hitter on a good team. Cheap in a contract year is 2023. Everyone likes Wendle as a top bench asset and gel guy, and Rojas is still a premium bench defender at minimum. These guys are low end starters/desirable bench players which is FINE. Get over it. They are excellent 2/3rd players in deals for a cheap starter for a contender or premier bench guy. Way better than most free agents. Go look at the list.

I do agree though, Cooper has the lowest value of the bunch but I think some time will like his profile and they could net a potential RP. Maybe I am wrong there.

So you agree Fulton has great value and explains why the GUARDIANS would do that? As stated, Anderson is not devoid of value. His ZIPS projection is 2.1 WAR next year. Rosario is 2.4. It's a close-ish swap, but Fulton and a 40 man optionable OF make up the difference with Naylor (who they also don't need). But yea, sounds good to continually being irrationally angry after the failed 88 win season. It makes a ton of sense once you calm down.

As for Arizona, because they have a major OF + lefty bat glut, and Meyer/Eder + a top 100 guy with Salas, with throw ins may be enough to get a guy off a lower impact rookie season. His stock is down a little so go for it. I would routinely take swings on guys like this ala Marsh. Sometimes it won't work out, but take those swings and you're in business when it hits. Or trade Eury for Carroll. It's also just an idea/example but Thomas or McCarthy are RIPE to being traded right now and you can probably get them without Eury and Pablo which was my point.

And you're not convincing anyone with a clue about a SP glut when your 7th-11th SP for 2022 are Eury (Mel told Miami Herald this week there should be patience), Eder (hasn't pitched), Sixto (hasn't pitched), Neidert (is he anything?), and Fulton (20 in AA. Needs 2 years probably). There. Is. No. Depth. For. 2023. Unless you want to project E. Hernandez into something? Or they sign magical SP for cheap and get another Thompson before he sucks again? This depth you want is for post 2023 absent a miracle when Meyer/Poteet are healthy, and everyone has larger innings capabilities on arms. Especially Cabrera and Eury. It's that easy.


3 bats and 2 relievers, keep the MLB SP. That's the perfect offseason.

we judging guys on 700 ab's now? you're the one cherry picking stats. 2.5 WAR over 700 ab's for a 33 year old guy with no power or on base ability is not impressive. Berti is a nothing bench player with speed and versatility. he cant hit. he has no power. he doesnt get on base. He steals bases in an era where there has never been less emphasis on stealing bases.. thats it. and he's not young and he's going into his second year of arbitration. no team would trade anything of value for him. oh ya and he will be 33 to start next year with 3 straight years of IL time. im sure teams will just be lining up to give up some valuable guys for him.

Anderson is beloved by scouts? who gives a fuck? He's hated by the own stats he puts up. Hes been terrible for 2 years. He is a free agent after next year. he will probably get 5+ million next year. NO ONE WANTS THESE PLAYERS FOR ANYTHING VALUABLE. As for ZIPS, which is wrong consistently, they also had him projected for 2 WAR this year. He put up .4 and was graded negatively defensively AND offensively according to fangraphs. Rosario actually put up a really good season, Anderson has been bad for 2 straight. So no, they arent remotely "close-ish" in a swap.

Also, the indians arent devoid of great pitching. Bieber, Mckenzie, Quantrill and plesac are all great to good and under control for 2 years more in biebers case and 3 more years in the rest of their cases. And their top prospect is the 15th ranked prospect in baseball in Daniel espino and is major league ready very soon. They were 16th in the league in runs this year and 10th in starters ERA, they arent dealing 2 of their better hitters for a lefty a year away at a position of strength. it is idiotic.

I said Fulton has value, you are the one putting words in my mouth saying he has great value. He isnt a top 100 prospect. He is a nice tall lefty with promise. You;re not getting Rosario and Naylor for him and quantity of shit. It's absurd.

WTF do you think you are getting for Rojas or wendle? We bought high on him and he's been a legitimately bad hitter since june of last year, is due 6.3 million next year, and is then a free agent. From june on after his hot start last year he had a WRC+ of 84 with an OPS of .663. This year he had a WRC+ of 87 and an OPS of .658. He's been bad for legitimately a year and a half. Im sure teams will be lining up to give up something of value to pay him 6 million next year. Probably knocking down our door for that. By your own admission, miguel rojas is a premium bench defender. He has proven he is not a starting SS in this league. AGAIN, WTF do you think you are getting for these players. Why would anyone give up anything of value to add these guys into deals? How are you improving a bottom 3 offense in the league with these as your pieces?

Again, they have more than enough depth in 2023 and a ton beyond that. They have the best pitcher in baseball in Sandy, Rogers, Garrett, Luzardo who broke out this year, Cabrera who was terrific in his major league innings, cheap depth innings eating signing, Eury, Eder, is better and more talented depth than 75% of teams in the league. Even castano is mediocre but he can give you innings at a level most other teams would desire in a 5th starter if needed. Again, look at who other teams are throwing out in the back end of their rotation. That is better than most teams in the league. It's one signing and they are fine. And they play in one of the best pitchers parks in baseball. If they are even in it by the deadline they can make a deal for a pitcher if their depth is so decimated as you seem to say it is. They wont be, however, if they dont make a move for at least 3 very talented young cost controlled major league ready hitters. Worrying about pitching depth for a single year when they have one of the worst lineups in baseball and pitching depth for years beyond is the height of stupidity and over thinking. Especially when they have sandy and a bunch of other young talent that other teams would love to have.

3 actually good bats is not possible without trading pablo or Eury, which would be dumb considering his surplus value will be sky high for 6 years as opposed to pablo lopez whose value will again never be higher, again they will not re-sign him, and again they have more than enough quality depth next year and especially beyond.

Oh and again, jose salas isnt a top 100 prospect. You yourself call baseball america the gold standard and shit on mlb.com's rankings and neither site has him top 100. He is a prospect with promise, that doesnt make guys top 100 prospects. Im fine with taking swings on guys like marsh and thomas, what you;re projecting to give up for him is an absurd trade for Arizona and they would hang up on you immediately.

[fish16]

also, this whole penciling in fortes as a long term starter that doesnt need an upgrade as well is pretty sad from the perspective of him being one of our better hitters. Even with the homer today he's hitting .231 with a .699 OPS. He is a promising young guy and he's fine for next year i guess if they want to give him a shot, but to act like he's not another guy at a position who we could use an upgrade at is pretty stupid. The fact that he is going to be the 4th best ops on the team out of guys who have at least 200 AB's behind Jazz, Cooper, and De La Cruz is a sad reflection of just how badly they have failed at developing hitting talent in the rebuild. We have a single long term position player that we can count on to be a good hitter. they need a major overhaul of the lineup this offseason, and it starts with dealing pablo at the height of his value. Id be cool not seeing Lewin, Stallings, rojas, wendle, and Anderson on this team next year. The lineup needs beyond a major overhaul, it needs an exorcism.

[Namaste]

Marlins 49-16 this year when they score 4 or more runs

[Nick]

also, this whole penciling in fortes as a long term starter that doesnt need an upgrade as well is pretty sad from the perspective of him being one of our better hitters. Even with the homer today he's hitting .231 with a .699 OPS. He is a promising young guy and he's fine for next year i guess if they want to give him a shot, but to act like he's not another guy at a position who we could use an upgrade at is pretty stupid. The fact that he is going to be the 4th best ops on the team out of guys who have at least 200 AB's behind Jazz, Cooper, and De La Cruz is a sad reflection of just how badly they have failed at developing hitting talent in the rebuild. We have a single long term position player that we can count on to be a good hitter. they need a major overhaul of the lineup this offseason, and it starts with dealing pablo at the height of his value. Id be cool not seeing Lewin, Stallings, rojas, wendle, and Anderson on this team next year. The lineup needs beyond a major overhaul, it needs an exorcism.

I don't think you pencil him in as a long-term starter, but honestly catcher was not the reason our offense was bad this year, and I think Stallings is better than what he showed this year, so it is sad, but if I were to rank positions that needed upgraded catcher would probably be 2nd to last only in front of 2nd Base with Jazz.

[fish16]

I don't think you pencil him in as a long-term starter, but honestly catcher was not the reason our offense was bad this year, and I think Stallings is better than what he showed this year, so it is sad, but if I were to rank positions that needed upgraded catcher would probably be 2nd to last only in front of 2nd Base with Jazz.

agreed, that is my major point in what i said. Fortes is fine if they want to give him a shot next year full time, but it's incredibly sad that he at C is the 2nd lowest priority in terms of needing an upgrade on the entire team. trade pablo.

[lou]

we judging guys on 700 ab's now? you're the one cherry picking stats. 2.5 WAR over 700 ab's for a 33 year old guy with no power or on base ability is not impressive. Berti is a nothing bench player with speed and versatility. he cant hit. he has no power. he doesnt get on base. He steals bases in an era where there has never been less emphasis on stealing bases.. thats it. and he's not young and he's going into his second year of arbitration. no team would trade anything of value for him. oh ya and he will be 33 to start next year with 3 straight years of IL time. im sure teams will just be lining up to give up some valuable guys for him.

Anderson is beloved by scouts? who gives a fuck? He's hated by the own stats he puts up. Hes been terrible for 2 years. He is a free agent after next year. he will probably get 5+ million next year. NO ONE WANTS THESE PLAYERS FOR ANYTHING VALUABLE. As for ZIPS, which is wrong consistently, they also had him projected for 2 WAR this year. He put up .4 and was graded negatively defensively AND offensively according to fangraphs. Rosario actually put up a really good season, Anderson has been bad for 2 straight. So no, they arent remotely "close-ish" in a swap.

Also, the indians arent devoid of great pitching. Bieber, Mckenzie, Quantrill and plesac are all great to good and under control for 2 years more in biebers case and 3 more years in the rest of their cases. And their top prospect is the 15th ranked prospect in baseball in Daniel espino and is major league ready very soon. They were 16th in the league in runs this year and 10th in starters ERA, they arent dealing 2 of their better hitters for a lefty a year away at a position of strength. it is idiotic.

I said Fulton has value, you are the one putting words in my mouth saying he has great value. He isnt a top 100 prospect. He is a nice tall lefty with promise. You;re not getting Rosario and Naylor for him and quantity of shit. It's absurd.

WTF do you think you are getting for Rojas or wendle? We bought high on him and he's been a legitimately bad hitter since june of last year, is due 6.3 million next year, and is then a free agent. From june on after his hot start last year he had a WRC+ of 84 with an OPS of .663. This year he had a WRC+ of 87 and an OPS of .658. He's been bad for legitimately a year and a half. Im sure teams will be lining up to give up something of value to pay him 6 million next year. Probably knocking down our door for that. By your own admission, miguel rojas is a premium bench defender. He has proven he is not a starting SS in this league. AGAIN, WTF do you think you are getting for these players. Why would anyone give up anything of value to add these guys into deals? How are you improving a bottom 3 offense in the league with these as your pieces?

Again, they have more than enough depth in 2023 and a ton beyond that. They have the best pitcher in baseball in Sandy, Rogers, Garrett, Luzardo who broke out this year, Cabrera who was terrific in his major league innings, cheap depth innings eating signing, Eury, Eder, is better and more talented depth than 75% of teams in the league. Even castano is mediocre but he can give you innings at a level most other teams would desire in a 5th starter if needed. Again, look at who other teams are throwing out in the back end of their rotation. That is better than most teams in the league. It's one signing and they are fine. And they play in one of the best pitchers parks in baseball. If they are even in it by the deadline they can make a deal for a pitcher if their depth is so decimated as you seem to say it is. They wont be, however, if they dont make a move for at least 3 very talented young cost controlled major league ready hitters. Worrying about pitching depth for a single year when they have one of the worst lineups in baseball and pitching depth for years beyond is the height of stupidity and over thinking. Especially when they have sandy and a bunch of other young talent that other teams would love to have.

3 actually good bats is not possible without trading pablo or Eury, which would be dumb considering his surplus value will be sky high for 6 years as opposed to pablo lopez whose value will again never be higher, again they will not re-sign him, and again they have more than enough quality depth next year and especially beyond.

Oh and again, jose salas isnt a top 100 prospect. You yourself call baseball america the gold standard and shit on mlb.com's rankings and neither site has him top 100. He is a prospect with promise, that doesnt make guys top 100 prospects. Im fine with taking swings on guys like marsh and thomas, what you;re projecting to give up for him is an absurd trade for Arizona and they would hang up on you immediately.

First of all - it's not the Indians for a second time. And it is important.

Second, yes 700 PA is an extremely large sample size? How does one cherry pick a player's "last" 700 PA when that is their "last" 700 PA? Berti is fine. He's one of the better bench players in the league with his positional versatility and speed (double bonus next year probably BTW). Good teams have this player on their bench. Same with Wendle. And Rojas. They'd get a FV45 guy for Berti (Misner) if they moved him. I can admit I was REALLY wrong on Berti - I wanted him moved preseason and to get a lefty killer middle infielder instead. Very very wrong. Everything he out does out weighs a better lefty split.

Third, Anderson has a 1.5+ WAR his last 700 or so PA, while being very hurt. That is not "bad." It's a low-end starter. This is the kind of guy who plays to his career normal 2.5-3 WAR when the Marlins let him go and is just healthy. It is close-ish when understanding Rosario is going to make $4m more (important), Anderson has some real positional versatility at 3B/OF which teams will like, and (also important) the Marlins easily have a bunch of prospects to add on top (like Fulton who is a riser) to make up the difference and make it worth their while. This isn't chump change once you get Fulton or better prospects involved, and other throw ins. Which leads into....

Fourth, you can never have enough pitching. Ever. Cleveland is smart and has an actual middle infield glut since Gimenez is just incredible. Someone is going to be traded and they are set up everywhere so the can speculate on arm talent. Fulton would be the # 2 pitcher in their system more than likely, at floor 3rd. They do need depth as they are hitter heavy in the minors so that gives them future depth starters and replacements.

Fifth, Rojas and Wendle are throw-ins. You'd probably get a FV40+ guy for them, or two FV40 guys, since they have a year of control. Again, WTF do YOU think I am saying here as those are VERY lower end prospects like a year ago Nasim Nunez or Patrick Henry. Regardless, those are good guys for a contender's bench. These are solid throw ins. We were all happy to get Wendle. Its' the same analysis.

Sixth, they do not have pitching depth for 2023 if they trade any of the top 6 SP and do not replace with many improved innings elsewhere. Which they can do if Bruce would sign some collection of arms to replace them. But it is *absolutely* not one-signing. I am beating the dead horse here that Meyer/Bender/Poteet are injured, Eder/Sixto are injury unknowns, Eury/Fulton are extremely young, and then we're at Neidert and is he an actual SP? As they released him once already and they seem pretty spot on with their pitching evaluations IMO. Castano is OOO BTW, so please do not include him as they don't have space for him on the roster right now with Scott/Okert and I doubt they guarantee a spot to Castano versus others. You do not sacrifice the pitching for the offense even for 1 year. What you do is - use other assets to fix the offense which they have many of. This is not rocket science and the height of stupidity is me continuing to respond to you with you failing to see the issue and not having a single retort besides "sign some guys." Who? How much? Have you met Bruce?

Seventh, we can reasonably disagree about getting good bats without moving Pablo and Eury. In fact, others agree with my there as Barry Jackson of the Herald thinks they should move Braxton Garrett if they move a pitcher (which is a better idea than Pablo if one of the 6 have to be moved). You can't tell me a Garret package can't get Thomas (with a big other prospect like Salas), and *especially* McCarthy off Arizona. I would decrease the "250" innings I keep saying to "200" if Garret is moved BTW, so that becomes just two guys practically speaking they'd need to sign. That is going to be a bit easier than finding 3 guys. Regardless, I fully believe they would get good players for collections of Meyer, Eder, Fulton, Salas, Cappe, Watson, etc. as the main pieces, with Lewis, Burdick, Sanchez, Anderson, Wendle, etc. as second/third pieces. Maybe I am wrong? But we're talking effectively three top 100 prospects with Meyer, Eder, and Salas (Meyer is still one, Salas is one, and Eder as soon as he shows health likely sneaks into the back end as he was already doing that based off his performance), Fulton and Cappe are rising fast so maybe there is a believer somewhere, and Watson has pedigree and could be valuable even as a buy lower. They have juice here whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Or as I keep saying - sign some real legitimate innings and trade a guy but... Who? How much? Have you met Bruce? To note, I'm not saying trade all of them. Just some. It's fine with the years of control at MLB level.

Eighth, Jose Salas is 81 (https://www.fangraphs.com/players/jo...ts?position=SS). I also don't call BA the gold standard, that is someone else, but I'd put them in the top three minimum with FG. MLB is certainly not that.


We'll get you there. I'm glad you are well off 88 win land, but you've swung too far in the other direction. Things are not as bad as they seem, but they do need 3 bats (and a manager and good reliever) so we'll see what they do. They have resources to do much better, even if Bruce still stays sub $90m.

[sports24/7]

"Poor man's Charles LeBlanc" held his own after the call-up. More than you can say about any of the Marlins' other hitting prospects this season. I think you pencil him in for a role next season.

[lou]

"Poor man's Charles LeBlanc" held his own after the call-up. More than you can say about any of the Marlins' other hitting prospects this season. I think you pencil him in for a role next season.

.374 BABIP, 31% whiff

I think he's earned 40 man protection and can fight presumably Groshans and Williams (and maybe the other OF if they carry more) for last bench spot.

[fish16]

First of all - it's not the Indians for a second time. And it is important.

Second, yes 700 PA is an extremely large sample size? How does one cherry pick a player's "last" 700 PA when that is their "last" 700 PA? Berti is fine. He's one of the better bench players in the league with his positional versatility and speed (double bonus next year probably BTW). Good teams have this player on their bench. Same with Wendle. And Rojas. They'd get a FV45 guy for Berti (Misner) if they moved him. I can admit I was REALLY wrong on Berti - I wanted him moved preseason and to get a lefty killer middle infielder instead. Very very wrong. Everything he out does out weighs a better lefty split.

Third, Anderson has a 1.5+ WAR his last 700 or so PA, while being very hurt. That is not "bad." It's a low-end starter. This is the kind of guy who plays to his career normal 2.5-3 WAR when the Marlins let him go and is just healthy. It is close-ish when understanding Rosario is going to make $4m more (important), Anderson has some real positional versatility at 3B/OF which teams will like, and (also important) the Marlins easily have a bunch of prospects to add on top (like Fulton who is a riser) to make up the difference and make it worth their while. This isn't chump change once you get Fulton or better prospects involved, and other throw ins. Which leads into....

Fourth, you can never have enough pitching. Ever. Cleveland is smart and has an actual middle infield glut since Gimenez is just incredible. Someone is going to be traded and they are set up everywhere so the can speculate on arm talent. Fulton would be the # 2 pitcher in their system more than likely, at floor 3rd. They do need depth as they are hitter heavy in the minors so that gives them future depth starters and replacements.

Fifth, Rojas and Wendle are throw-ins. You'd probably get a FV40+ guy for them, or two FV40 guys, since they have a year of control. Again, WTF do YOU think I am saying here as those are VERY lower end prospects like a year ago Nasim Nunez or Patrick Henry. Regardless, those are good guys for a contender's bench. These are solid throw ins. We were all happy to get Wendle. Its' the same analysis.

Sixth, they do not have pitching depth for 2023 if they trade any of the top 6 SP and do not replace with many improved innings elsewhere. Which they can do if Bruce would sign some collection of arms to replace them. But it is *absolutely* not one-signing. I am beating the dead horse here that Meyer/Bender/Poteet are injured, Eder/Sixto are injury unknowns, Eury/Fulton are extremely young, and then we're at Neidert and is he an actual SP? As they released him once already and they seem pretty spot on with their pitching evaluations IMO. Castano is OOO BTW, so please do not include him as they don't have space for him on the roster right now with Scott/Okert and I doubt they guarantee a spot to Castano versus others. You do not sacrifice the pitching for the offense even for 1 year. What you do is - use other assets to fix the offense which they have many of. This is not rocket science and the height of stupidity is me continuing to respond to you with you failing to see the issue and not having a single retort besides "sign some guys." Who? How much? Have you met Bruce?

Seventh, we can reasonably disagree about getting good bats without moving Pablo and Eury. In fact, others agree with my there as Barry Jackson of the Herald thinks they should move Braxton Garrett if they move a pitcher (which is a better idea than Pablo if one of the 6 have to be moved). You can't tell me a Garret package can't get Thomas (with a big other prospect like Salas), and *especially* McCarthy off Arizona. I would decrease the "250" innings I keep saying to "200" if Garret is moved BTW, so that becomes just two guys practically speaking they'd need to sign. That is going to be a bit easier than finding 3 guys. Regardless, I fully believe they would get good players for collections of Meyer, Eder, Fulton, Salas, Cappe, Watson, etc. as the main pieces, with Lewis, Burdick, Sanchez, Anderson, Wendle, etc. as second/third pieces. Maybe I am wrong? But we're talking effectively three top 100 prospects with Meyer, Eder, and Salas (Meyer is still one, Salas is one, and Eder as soon as he shows health likely sneaks into the back end as he was already doing that based off his performance), Fulton and Cappe are rising fast so maybe there is a believer somewhere, and Watson has pedigree and could be valuable even as a buy lower. They have juice here whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Or as I keep saying - sign some real legitimate innings and trade a guy but... Who? How much? Have you met Bruce? To note, I'm not saying trade all of them. Just some. It's fine with the years of control at MLB level.

Eighth, Jose Salas is 81 (https://www.fangraphs.com/players/jo...ts?position=SS). I also don't call BA the gold standard, that is someone else, but I'd put them in the top three minimum with FG. MLB is certainly not that.


We'll get you there. I'm glad you are well off 88 win land, but you've swung too far in the other direction. Things are not as bad as they seem, but they do need 3 bats (and a manager and good reliever) so we'll see what they do. They have resources to do much better, even if Bruce still stays sub $90m.

Do you ever take inventory about how consistently and wildly wrong your WAR projections are for guys moving forward? From Didi, , to Ketel Marte, to Jacob Stallings, to Bryan Reynolds, to Soler and Garcia, to Brian Anderson, you are never close.

1. Berti's production over 700 ab's is not impressive. It's all defensive based. He cannot hit. He has no value. You are getting nothing for him. That's my contention. Not that he cant be a useful piece for a team, it's that a team wont give up a useful piece for him. It's a waste of a conversation.

2. 1.5 WAR over 700 ab's is not impressive. Teams arent giving up literally anything of value for that production, combined with the injury history, combined with the 5+ million due next year, combined with the free agency after next year. No one wants that. The guy has no value. It's not remotely close to Rosario.

3. The bigger overarching theme here is none of these pieces, no matter how much of the shit you want to combine, gets you anything that impacts your ability to score runs next year. that's what im arguing. You're worried about finding innings next year in a rotation that includes Sandy, Garrett, Rogers, Luzardo, Cabrera, and Eder and Eury when ready when we have a bottom 3 offense in baseball. It is the definition of textbook overthinking and not seeing the forest through the trees. They have more than enough pitching long term and 0 hitters outside of Jazz that are remotely close to being impact talents.

4. You can recycle the tired cliche of you can never have enough good pitching, but you absolutely can when your offense cant score runs. The guardians dont have a MI glut, they have 2 good middle infielders. They were middle of the pack offensively with 2 of the best players in the game in Ramirez and Giminez. The GUARDIANS arent dealing 2 of of their top 6 producing bats from a 92 win playoff team who will also compete next year for pitching depth when they already have a great rotation (top 7 in baseball) and a consensus top 20 prospect in baseball that will be ready next year. Brian anderson has no value, all 4 of their best SP's right now have multiple years left of team control, and again they have Espino on the horizon. Your trade is asinine for a multitude of reasons. Ya, adding Naylor and Rosario would be fantastic, you aint getting him for a compilation of your greatest shit.

5. Again, Wendle and Rojas have 0 value. Neither has been good for 1.5-2 years each and they are due decent money next year. I wouldnt be remotely surprised to see the marlins decline wendle's 6.3 million team option. He has no value at that price. He's been straight up bad since june 2021. You may get a flier reliever for him and, AGAIN, that does nothing to improve a terrible lineup, which is the biggest thing in the way of their path towards being competitive.

6. That SP depth you mentioned is better than most teams in the league. Again, worrying about SP depth when you have as bad of a lineup as you have with the talent they already have in the rotaiton is beyond stupid. You sign a guy like a clevinger, Bundy, Heaney, PIneda, Trevor WIlliams, Joe Ross, Drew Smyly, archer, Greinke for a year for insurance, and that is better than 80% of the teams in the league. Again, worrying about 1 year of SP depth when you have Sandy, Cabrera, Rogers, Luzardo, and Garrett plus some of the best SP talent in the upper minors and Nick Fortes as your 2nd best long term position player is beyond short sighted. You can recycle the same boring "you can never have enough pitching" line over and over, it doesnt make it true, especially when your lineup is as completely horrific as this lineup is.

7. Why on earth would the D-Backs trade a consensus top 40 prospect in baseball for Braxton garrett and more crap. That's a horrendous trade for them. Again, im not criticizing the people you are advocating trading for, im criticizing how completely absurd and terrrible your trade proposals are to get them. They are deals that would have you laughed off the phone in a second. Garrett is good but also a year removed from being out of the conversation here about a long term future with the club.


they arent getting impact talent that can improve this lineup next year and beyond without trading pablo or signing a major piece, which they wont do. That's the bottom line. And that's why youll see them trade pablo this offseason.

The idea that you are getting amed rosario, Alek Thomas, and Naylor for Fulton, Garrett, Salas, and some combo of valueless relatively highly paid veterans and guys who were once prospects that have been bad at the ML level is nonsensical

[lou]

Do you ever take inventory about how consistently and wildly wrong your WAR projections are for guys moving forward? From Didi, , to Ketel Marte, to Jacob Stallings, to Bryan Reynolds, to Soler and Garcia, to Brian Anderson, you are never close.

1. Berti's production over 700 ab's is not impressive. It's all defensive based. He cannot hit. He has no value. You are getting nothing for him. That's my contention. Not that he cant be a useful piece for a team, it's that a team wont give up a useful piece for him. It's a waste of a conversation.

2. 1.5 WAR over 700 ab's is not impressive. Teams arent giving up literally anything of value for that production, combined with the injury history, combined with the 5+ million due next year, combined with the free agency after next year. No one wants that. The guy has no value. It's not remotely close to Rosario.

3. The bigger overarching theme here is none of these pieces, no matter how much of the shit you want to combine, gets you anything that impacts your ability to score runs next year. that's what im arguing. You're worried about finding innings next year in a rotation that includes Sandy, Garrett, Rogers, Luzardo, Cabrera, and Eder and Eury when ready when we have a bottom 3 offense in baseball. It is the definition of textbook overthinking and not seeing the forest through the trees. They have more than enough pitching long term and 0 hitters outside of Jazz that are remotely close to being impact talents.

4. You can recycle the tired cliche of you can never have enough good pitching, but you absolutely can when your offense cant score runs. The guardians dont have a MI glut, they have 2 good middle infielders. They were middle of the pack offensively with 2 of the best players in the game in Ramirez and Giminez. The GUARDIANS arent dealing 2 of of their top 6 producing bats from a 92 win playoff team who will also compete next year for pitching depth when they already have a great rotation (top 7 in baseball) and a consensus top 20 prospect in baseball that will be ready next year. Brian anderson has no value, all 4 of their best SP's right now have multiple years left of team control, and again they have Espino on the horizon. Your trade is asinine for a multitude of reasons. Ya, adding Naylor and Rosario would be fantastic, you aint getting him for a compilation of your greatest shit.

5. Again, Wendle and Rojas have 0 value. Neither has been good for 1.5-2 years each and they are due decent money next year. I wouldnt be remotely surprised to see the marlins decline wendle's 6.3 million team option. He has no value at that price. He's been straight up bad since june 2021. You may get a flier reliever for him and, AGAIN, that does nothing to improve a terrible lineup, which is the biggest thing in the way of their path towards being competitive.

6. That SP depth you mentioned is better than most teams in the league. Again, worrying about SP depth when you have as bad of a lineup as you have with the talent they already have in the rotaiton is beyond stupid. You sign a guy like a clevinger, Bundy, Heaney, PIneda, Trevor WIlliams, Joe Ross, Drew Smyly, archer, Greinke for a year for insurance, and that is better than 80% of the teams in the league. Again, worrying about 1 year of SP depth when you have Sandy, Cabrera, Rogers, Luzardo, and Garrett plus some of the best SP talent in the upper minors and Nick Fortes as your 2nd best long term position player is beyond short sighted. You can recycle the same boring "you can never have enough pitching" line over and over, it doesnt make it true, especially when your lineup is as completely horrific as this lineup is.

7. Why on earth would the D-Backs trade a consensus top 40 prospect in baseball for Braxton garrett and more crap. That's a horrendous trade for them. Again, im not criticizing the people you are advocating trading for, im criticizing how completely absurd and terrrible your trade proposals are to get them. They are deals that would have you laughed off the phone in a second. Garrett is good but also a year removed from being out of the conversation here about a long term future with the club.


they arent getting impact talent that can improve this lineup next year and beyond without trading pablo or signing a major piece, which they wont do. That's the bottom line. And that's why youll see them trade pablo this offseason.

I agree with the bold and pretty much nothing else. Asked and answered is my response. And even the new things you bring up are just inaccurate (like Wendle not good since June 2021, well he has a 2.3 WAR in 695 PA since 6/1/21 and that is not any way, shape, or form "straight up bad."). Don't let the disappointment of the season cloud rational thought. Things are not as bad as you think they are, even if vast improvements are needed in the form of 3-4 more players (and more if you trade MLB SP).

[sports24/7]

.374 BABIP, 31% whiff

I think he's earned 40 man protection and can fight presumably Groshans and Williams (and maybe the other OF if they carry more) for last bench spot.

"Poor man's LeBlanc" was in reference to what someone called Groshans earlier in this thread. I was referring to Groshans. I don't really think LeBlanc is in the plans, but I suppose you could do worse with a last bench spot.

[fish16]

I agree with the bold and pretty much nothing else. Asked and answered is my response. And even the new things you bring up are just inaccurate (like Wendle not good since June 2021, well he has a 2.3 WAR in 695 PA since 6/1/21 and that is not any way, shape, or form "straight up bad."). Don't let the disappointment of the season cloud rational thought. Things are not as bad as you think they are, even if vast improvements are needed in the form of 3-4 more players (and more if you trade MLB SP).

Wendle had an 84 WRC+ and .654 OPS after his hot start from june on last year and an 87 WRC+ and a .657 OPS this year plus he was injured for a large chunk of the year. He had been bad for a year and a half. I dont care about defensively driven WAR because im focused on finding a lineup that can hit to improve a bottom 3 offense in the league and defensive metrics are not consistent on a year to year basis nor is it measured very well. See defensive wizard Jacob stallings who according to you had such a healthy floor this year, grading out negatively defensively and therefore being flat out terrible this year because his bat was even worse than advertised. Offensive production is significantly more consistent on a year to year basis for the most part, and it's what this team needs, not defensively driven value.. WAR is an imperfect stat because there is not a good measure really on how to value defense and it makes citing WAR useless when debating constructing this teams lineup moving forward because it's effect is to inflate the WAR of players who are just not good.

Kind of like how ramon laureano was this defensive wizard his age 23 and 24 seasons and now at age 27 he's bad defensively.

[Lee Stone]

As unthinkable as most Marlins fans think it would be to trade Alcantara, he's the one guy who could capture a solid return. Trading him to a team like Toronto could return upgrades at three everyday positions. I think the group of Rogers, Luzardo, Pablo, Cabrera, Garrett, Perez, Fulton and Eder will represent the makings of a well above average starting staff during the 2023 season.

[fish16]

As unthinkable as most Marlins fans think it would be to trade Alcantara, he's the one guy who could capture a solid return. Trading him to a team like Toronto could return upgrades at three everyday positions. I think the group of Rogers, Luzardo, Pablo, Cabrera, Garrett, Perez, Fulton and Eder will represent the makings of a well above average starting staff during the 2023 season.

no, you dont trade the best pitcher under contract for cheap for years to come. you trade the mid rotation guy with an injury history coming off his best season and 2 years away from free agency when they have no intention of re-signing him.