Beinfest Unhappy?

[Namaste]

Swift you had such a nice post going there and then you put "Hermida" and "Stanton" in the same sentence



cmonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn nnnnnnnnnn

[Valid]

What bothers me the most about all of this is how some of you are ripping on Beinfest for the Cabrera trade when, at the time, Maybin and Miller were considered top-of-the-line prospects. If they both worked out like many expected them to, you would be lauding Beinfest for getting a good haul. It's not his fault they ended up being busts for the organization.

[Valid]

With Miller the warning flags were definitely there.

He was still considered a high-end prospect, though.

[Swifty]

(1) Beinfest's job isn't to be right by conventional logic, it's to be right.

(2) Plenty of people hated the deal at the time.

[CrimsonCane]

If we evaluate him based on what conventional thinking was at the time, how would he be any better than anyone of us in that position?

[Bobbob1313]

If we evaluate him based on what conventional thinking was at the time, how would he be any better than anyone of us in that position?

I think the issue with this is how do you evaluate someone if you yourself aren't an expert in that field, then? Solely by outcomes?

[Swifty]

Sports are results based.

[Bobbob1313]

Sports are results based.

So the process shouldn't be taken into account at all?

Do you hold Larry Beinfest accountable for missing on Jeff Allison?

[Swifty]

Based on the SI article indicating the overwhelming amount of hiding/covering up done by his family, and that there weren't any Marlins scouts following him regularly and doing the background stuff, he's not absolved from guilt.

Look, I know where you're going with this, you're going to say I can't argue that it's a process because Allison was the right call and that if you purley evaluate results, by extension you'd be arguing Beinfest drafts oxycontin addicts. The problem is, the bigger picture is do you fault Larry Beinfest for having a 2011 team that does not feature a Marlins first round pick on the pre-expanded roster. The answer is yes. It's not Allison or Hermida, or trading Adrian instead of Stokes, it's a history of running the team into the ground.

[Fritz]

Jacob Marceaux is gonna be the tits.

[Bobbob1313]

Based on the SI article indicating the overwhelming amount of hiding/covering up done by his family, and that there weren't any Marlins scouts following him regularly and doing the background stuff, he's not absolved from guilt.

Look, I know where you're going with this, you're going to say I can't argue that it's a process because Allison was the right call and that if you purley evaluate results, by extension you'd be arguing Beinfest drafts oxycontin addicts. The problem is, the bigger picture is do you fault Larry Beinfest for having a 2011 team that does not feature a Marlins first round pick on the pre-expanded roster. The answer is yes. It's not Allison or Hermida, or trading Adrian instead of Stokes, it's a history of running the team into the ground.

I don't think he's necessarily a good or bad GM. He's had some success doing some things and he's failed in other things. Yes, his record on 1st rounders is bad, but I don't believe that it's because he's just completely blind to talent.

I just don't think it's 100% fair to judge GMs absolutely by results, because I think so much of it is luck or chance. I know, we have to do that, but I think it's silly to pretend that we are simply Theo Epstein away from being a perrenial playoff contender. Putting the blame on Beinfest is what we do, because it's the only recourse, but I think there's a lot more than just "Beinfest is the worst" at play.

Like I said, I'm fine with getting rid of him, because I think 9 years is a long enough time to have one guy, and a new perspective can be a good thing. But I don't think it's because Beinfest is the abject failure you paint him as, and I don't think the last 9 years would have been phenomenally successful if only we had Walt Jocketty or Frank Wren or Brian Cashman or Andrew Friedman.

[Todd]

The Cabrera trade failed in hindsight, but was not considered terrible at the time.

Not so sure about that. Maybe never called terrible, but I dont think the return was ever really considered "good".

[Jay]

This organization could not afford to sign 5 number 1 picks in a year. So either complain about all 5 sucking or not at all.

Does stokes get the trade done? Maybe they were extremely high on adrian because he was a lefty?

Miller and Maybin were not expected to completely flop. And DTrain was a complete wreck at that point with a horrible contract. Miller put up better results in that time frame then Willis. You also had 4 other players in that deal. 2 relief pitchers, a starter and a backup catcher. It certainly was not considered bad deal at the time and it was definitely better than anything else on the table.

Allison did have those problems in high school. I met quite a few people that acknowledged he had some problems in high school and its the organizations fault for not realizing it and making sure their investment didn't destroy his career.

No one is going to be happy with every move a GM makes and in hindsight you will be able to pinpoint spots where he did something wrong. But at the time of the event, you don't know everything that was considered. Beinfest certainly doesn't make enough mistakes to call for his head. He also is not good enough to praise nonstop. He's a decent GM and replacing him isn't going to be the answer to making the playoffs.

I think Lou has pointed this out before but Stanton, Boner, Anibal, and Mujica should all be offered multiyear contracts this off-season. If they aren't offered them, Beinfest is not doing his job by buying out arby years properly to get better value for the team. Boner and Mujica contracts will not be large by any standard and they have developed into pieces that are incredibly useful pieces for contenders and they have the potential to just f you if you end up with Mujica as a closer and Boner as an above average starter. Stanton is at worst a serviceable major leaguer and has the potential and work ethic to develop into one of the games best players. Sanchez has his best K rates and BB rates this season. He has started over 30 games for 2 years, worrying about his arm can't really be an excuse anymore.

[Chewford]

You absolutely can be judged in hindsight. What the trade may have looked like at the time to many people is irrelevant. You're not a good GM is you make moves that seem good at the time; you're a good GM if you make moves that look good 5 years later.

[CrimsonCane]

I don't think he's necessarily a good or bad GM. He's had some success doing some things and he's failed in other things. Yes, his record on 1st rounders is bad, but I don't believe that it's because he's just completely blind to talent.

I just don't think it's 100% fair to judge GMs absolutely by results, because I think so much of it is luck or chance. I know, we have to do that, but I think it's silly to pretend that we are simply Theo Epstein away from being a perrenial playoff contender. Putting the blame on Beinfest is what we do, because it's the only recourse, but I think there's a lot more than just "Beinfest is the worst" at play.

Like I said, I'm fine with getting rid of him, because I think 9 years is a long enough time to have one guy, and a new perspective can be a good thing. But I don't think it's because Beinfest is the abject failure you paint him as, and I don't think the last 9 years would have been phenomenally successful if only we had Walt Jocketty or Frank Wren or Brian Cashman or Andrew Friedman.

When faced with one thing that you can't really judge (process) and one you definitely can (results), which do you go with?

If you go by process, then you're basically resigned to saying, "It's impossible to evaluate his performance."