2024 Game Thread

[fish16]

Because the Red Sox want to win which I understand is a foreign concept for Marlins fans and teams that want to win will move players that are 2+ years away for players that can help them now and they can keep. The Red Sox will you know, sign guys in FA to plug holes rather than hope Jonah Bride or DFA waiver pickups work out as Plan A. They have money for the Jansens or whoever out there. I don't know what to tell you here. They aren't signing Arraez for $100m+ (which will be the going rate similar to Bryan Reynolds) in a year they are about to lose 90+ games despite how bad the bat situation looks like. Kim messed this one up not giving him an extension immediately when she got him. He's going to be too expensive, and especially for a guy who is projecting off 2B and is an odd fit 1B/DH type as there is no power and teams will want that power. Someone like Teel is a best case scenario for him. Someone like Roman Anthony won't be moved for him absent Arraez just hits 20 bombs before the ASB.

And we're kicking the can 3 years down the road now? They should focus on drafting every year? The rebuild on the fly is very simple - you trade out as much money as you can (Arraez, Luzardo, Scott, Bell, maybe one of Garrett/Cabrera/Rogers/Puk if you get a great deal for them), get rid of the bad money in the offseason (Bethancourt, DLC, Gordon, Chargois), and from moving all of that, hopefully you're getting back 3-4 core players and a bunch more Edwards/Sasaki/Maldonado kind of guys that some will work out, and you have reduced your payroll to $60m in 2025, and reduced 2024 payroll by 10s of millions on top of that, and then maybe that's a situation Bruce will let them spend on something more than Tim Anderson to actually improve the team. Then on top of that, you do what we all agree - extend Jazz, Cabrera, maybe Rogers/Puk/Max/Sanchez if they look great this year. That'll impact future payrolls. This isn't rocket science and they need more cheaper young talent, and turning Luzardo and Arraez into 2-3 top prospects and flyers + opening up $25m+ in 2025 payroll (extremely important!) which could be Adames straight up (and probably less), is a step back for 2024 and major step forward in 2025 having 2 guys turn into 6+ for the same money. That's what they need to do even if we like Arraez and Luzardo, which we do. Scorch earth of all the money besides Sandy, and the 2025 team will look good on paper if they don't't mess up the trades and Bruce lets them spend to 2023 levels.

First off, the red sox havent operated like they want to win for about 5 years now. Kyle Teel also isnt 2 years away. He is a college bat. He played in AA after being drafted last year. He will either be in the majors later this year or next year. They also have marcelo meyer and trevor story is signed long term plus raffaela plays some infield so they dont really have a need for a 2b. Second, you can rebuild on the fly while keeping Arraez. You're on one hand trying to argue he's going to get 100 million while on the other hand arguing that he is projecting off 2b and is an off fit for 1b/DH, so which is it. You are not making this team better by trading Arraez, point blank. He is the best pure hitter in baseball, for his career he's hitting .324 yet still has an OPS over .800, he is 27 today, and you have a window to win next year and the year after. Sign him and figure out the rest later. He's worth the money, and you have absolutely nothing in the minors and havent developed a hitter in like 7 years. At a certain point you have to have some building blocks. Also, he isnt getting you a top 30 prospect in baseball. Juan soto a year from free agency didnt even get that.

Currently, he and Jazz and to a lesser extent burger are the only long term building blocks, and jazz never stays healthy and hasnt proven he can hit lefties. Good luck trying to rebuild finding 7 position players. Trading Luzardo, 1 more starter, Scott, Bell, and hopefully Anderson if he performs should get you enough to start the rebuild and get some long term position player pieces. You dont trade a 27 year old best position player on your team and think you are going to get better to compete in this window. What you're going to end up doing is either whiffing on the trade and making the team significantly worse or getting pieces that wont mature until after these pitchers get expensive and the whole plan doesnt work.

He is a cornerstone player, you keep him, you build around him, and you find other guys to deal to rebuild the lineup while still having great young pitching. Not everything has to be a burn it down situation. And they are never signing a 25 million a year guy like Adames. Resting all of your hopes on that is about as dumb as can be.

[Nick]

Because the Red Sox want to win which I understand is a foreign concept for Marlins fans and teams that want to win will move players that are 2+ years away for players that can help them now and they can keep. The Red Sox will you know, sign guys in FA to plug holes rather than hope Jonah Bride or DFA waiver pickups work out as Plan A. They have money for the Jansens or whoever out there. I don't know what to tell you here. They aren't signing Arraez for $100m+ (which will be the going rate similar to Bryan Reynolds) in a year they are about to lose 90+ games despite how bad the bat situation looks like. Kim messed this one up not giving him an extension immediately when she got him. He's going to be too expensive, and especially for a guy who is projecting off 2B and is an odd fit 1B/DH type as there is no power and teams will want that power. Someone like Teel is a best case scenario for him. Someone like Roman Anthony won't be moved for him absent Arraez just hits 20 bombs before the ASB.

And we're kicking the can 3 years down the road now? They should focus on drafting every year? The rebuild on the fly is very simple - you trade out as much money as you can (Arraez, Luzardo, Scott, Bell, maybe one of Garrett/Cabrera/Rogers/Puk if you get a great deal for them), get rid of the bad money in the offseason (Bethancourt, DLC, Gordon, Chargois), and from moving all of that, hopefully you're getting back 3-4 core players and a bunch more Edwards/Sasaki/Maldonado kind of guys that some will work out, and you have reduced your payroll to $60m in 2025, and reduced 2024 payroll by 10s of millions on top of that, and then maybe that's a situation Bruce will let them spend on something more than Tim Anderson to actually improve the team. Then on top of that, you do what we all agree - extend Jazz, Cabrera, maybe Rogers/Puk/Max/Sanchez if they look great this year. That'll impact future payrolls. This isn't rocket science and they need more cheaper young talent, and turning Luzardo and Arraez into 2-3 top prospects and flyers + opening up $25m+ in 2025 payroll (extremely important!) which could be Adames straight up (and probably less), is a step back for 2024 and major step forward in 2025 having 2 guys turn into 6+ for the same money. That's what they need to do even if we like Arraez and Luzardo, which we do. Scorch earth of all the money besides Sandy, and the 2025 team will look good on paper if they don't't mess up the trades and Bruce lets them spend to 2023 levels.

I find it much more likely that an Arraez extension was never even a possibility given our owner than our GM goofed and didn’t re-sign him at the right time.

[fish16]

Luzardo is the main piece to trade as you have the depth to survive it, he has 2 more years of team control after this year, and just about every pitcher in baseball is blowing out their elbow. That's the guy that goes and is worth a fuck ton. You trade him to baltimore, and you trade bell, Scott, and anderson on top of it, and you're ready to compete next year. You get 2 of Mayo, Westburg, Kjerstad, Cowser, etc, and this team looks so much different.

And then you go and get Campusano from the Padres (salas is the best prospect in baseball right behind him) at the deadline for say Scott and Betancourt, and you've rebuilt this lineup with a ton of high end SP depth left over, plus the best pure hitter in baseball, Jazz, Burger, and to a lesser extent Sanchez still left over. That's a reset while still allowing you to compete next year.

Could trot out

C- Campusano
1b- Burger
2b- Arraez/
SS- still an issue depending on the trades
3b- Mayo,
LF- Kjerstad
CF- Jazz
RF- Sanchez
DH- Arraez/
SP- Eury, Sandy, Garrett, Cabrera, Meyer, Rogers, Weathers, etc.

If we have to include White or Noble Meyer to get that done i would even do it. This team needs cornerstone hitting talents. If we've learned anything over the last few years, we've learned that it is by far and away significantly more reliable of a way to build your team than through pitching depth.

[lou]

I find it much more likely that an Arraez extension was never even a possibility given our owner than our GM goofed and didn’t re-sign him at the right time.

No push back from me here. I'll point the blame at both and they can decide who really caused it. Everyone sucks internally there.

[lou]

Luzardo is the main piece to trade as you have the depth to survive it, he has 2 more years of team control after this year, and just about every pitcher in baseball is blowing out their elbow. That's the guy that goes and is worth a fuck ton. You trade him to baltimore, and you trade bell, Scott, and anderson on top of it, and you're ready to compete next year. You get 2 of Mayo, Westburg, Kjerstad, Cowser, etc, and this team looks so much different.

And then you go and get Campusano from the Padres (salas is the best prospect in baseball right behind him) at the deadline for say Scott and Betancourt, and you've rebuilt this lineup with a ton of high end SP depth left over, plus the best pure hitter in baseball, Jazz, Burger, and to a lesser extent Sanchez still left over. That's a reset while still allowing you to compete next year.

Could trot out

C- Campusano
1b- Burger
2b- Arraez/
SS- still an issue depending on the trades
3b- Mayo,
LF- Kjerstad
CF- Jazz
RF- Sanchez
DH- Arraez/
SP- Eury, Sandy, Garrett, Cabrera, Meyer, Rogers, Weathers, etc.

If we have to include White or Noble Meyer to get that done i would even do it. This team needs cornerstone hitting talents. If we've learned anything over the last few years, we've learned that it is by far and away significantly more reliable of a way to build your team than through pitching depth.

Campusano isn't going anywhere unless you get them Luzardo and Arraez. That's an and not an or. (Obviously other pieces would be involved). The idea Scott alone would get him is not a thing despite the pedigree of Salas (who is still likely years away, he's a baby). Campusano looks great. They needed him last deadline if they were going to trade. However, Noble/White + Scott would maybe get that done but that seems a lot for Campusano unless a second major player is coming back. That's a lot of moving parts.

I also don't think Luzardo is bringing in two top 25 prospects (FG has them at 23 and 24), but I think you can get one of them, and Westburg/Norby (among a very good 3rd player further away, Bradfield, etc.), and that effectively would be the same depth chart. But you're not getting both of them with what they are doing in AAA right now.

Let's say it's Kjerstad and Norby for Luzardo as the main 1-2 "ready" guys. You can do this for roughly $75m. Includes Garcia.

____, Fortes
Burger, Arraez (split 1B/DH)
Norby, Edwards
_____, _____
_____
Kjerstad
Jazz, _____
Sanchez

Sandy, Garrett, Cabrera, Max, Rogers (Eury midseason)
_____, Nardi, Puk, Bender, Weathers, and a collection of three of Sixto/Soriano/Maldonado/Cronin/etc.


Scott/Bell trade returns aren't here, so maybe they fill one of the blank lines here and add to the RP shuffle at the end. Not sure anything epic is coming for them alone.


They spent $110m in 2023. It's a lot of holes, and here is where I say the same thing I have been saying for months - the only difference makers at C and SS are Danny Jansen and Willy Adames, and Todd vehemently disagrees with half of that, and that's going to cost $30m in free agency more than likely. So they can cram into the 2025 budget with them + Arraez, but then you're going to have to pray for a miracle like a $2.5m JD Davis being available in FA for the 3B job, and then your backups are likely a little weaker unless Bendix made some good low-key acquisitions like Brujan, O. Lopez, or whoever does work out.


This is where trading Arraez makes sense because it is difficult to cram that team together with that budget needing to legitimately bring in some kind of high end guy. Arraez opens up another $13m, fills a blank line (we'll say Teel for discussion's sake), and if you do Adames above on some kind of 5-6 year $110m contract, you are then rolling this out for under $85m:

Teel, Fortes
Burger, _____
Norby, Edwards
Adames, _____
_____
Kjerstad
Jazz, _____
Sanchez

Sandy, Garrett, Cabrera, Max, Rogers (Eury midseason)
_____, Nardi, Puk, Bender, Weathers, and a collection of three of Sixto/Soriano/Maldonado/Cronin/etc.

If they spend at 2023 levels, they can roughly afford a $10m, $5m, $5m, $2.5m, and $2.5m player to add to this.

If we use 2024 as a model, that's D. Robertson, M. Taylor, J.D. Davis,, I'm going to say Brandon Belt because he's unsigned, and Anderson/Rosario.


Something like this should be the plan, and it becomes so so so much easier if Bendix can pluck some bench guys from Brujan, Lopez, Rivera, Gordon, DLC, Dane, Johnston, Bride, or the Bell/Scott/etc. trades. Absolutely hammer the wire and find some guys. Make Sasaki is one of them. Tons of moves like that.

[fish16]

in what world is campusano going for Luzardo AND Arraez. That's completely absurd. He's been solid finally after years of just being a highly touted prospect, but he also is average at best defensively. The idea that he is worth either of those guys let alone both is ridiculous. Also Salas is a baby but he is also already in A+ ball. He wont be too far behind. Especially because i can almost guarantee you they will sign him to a long term deal probably before he even gets to the majors because their owner isnt a moron like ours. Or you could also go try and steal Diego Cartaya off a down year from the dodgers given that they just signed will smith long term and also have Dalton Rushing at C in the system. The dodgers biggest hole is a lefty reliever.

Also, filling out those blanks is a lot easier when you have a 27 year old stud at 2b and not trading him to create even more holes filled by prospects who wont be impact players right away if ever. Luzardo especially, but also scott, bell, and hopefully anderson can get you those pieces to fill those blanks. Trading arraez is just creating another gaping hole on a team that is already full of holes for next year from a lineup that is bad as it is this year. Luzardo is the piece you deal. He is valuable enough to get you at least 1 cornerstone piece if not that and another solid longterm piece like Westburg (who was a top 60 or so prospect just last year).

Arraez at 13 million is a bargain. Freeing that up is doing nothing for you compared to what he brings to this team. It's ok to keep pieces and build around them. it wont hurt you i promise.

You deal Arraez and that 2025 you've been consistently touting about them circling is gone. Prospects miss constantly, and what you dont ever seem to acknowledge is that the vast majority arent impact guys right away. You deal arraez and you can push the window for contention back another year, if not 2, if not missing it altogether. Luzardo you can replace as they have a ton of depth, arraez you can not. As opposed to penciling in a great 2b, you're just hoping you can eventually develop an unproven prospect into something you can eventually pray reaches 3-4 WAR per year. It's idiotic to trade him, and yet they probably will because this is a loser franchise with a loser owner.

Not to mention, yet again, that the marlins arent signing anyone close to Adames in free agency. IT. Will. Not. Happen. The second you stop projecting "the werth signing" into every single one of your posts the closer we will be to having a realistic discussion. Not sure how many years you have to continue to do that before you realize this.

[Todd]

How is Danny Jansen a difference Maker, Lou? He is almost 30. He is an awful hitter outside of having a bit of power. He is not very good defensively. He's never even been the Jays primary catcher because he objectively isn't very good. He has one tool and it's power and that doesn't really play at LoanDepot Park.

[fish16]

How is Danny Jansen a difference Maker, Lou? He is almost 30. He is an awful hitter outside of having a bit of power. He is not very good defensively. He's never even been the Jays primary catcher because he objectively isn't very good. He has one tool and it's power and that doesn't really play at LoanDepot Park.

we will never sign him and i wouldnt sign him to huge money, but that's pretty impressive to get almost every factual thing wrong in a post. He has a career 102 WRC+, the last 3 years being 105, 141, and 115 last year. He's also 28.

Fangraphs has him as a tremendous defensive catcher. It's why he could put up a 1.8 WAR in 2019 despite a wrc+ of 69 in close to 400 ab's.

He was the jays primary catcher literally last year. He played in 86 games while missing the entire month of september. In 2022 he played 72 games while missing an entire month from early june to early july plus he played just 2 games before May 14th that year. In 2021 he played in 70 games while missing a month of the year then as well. In 2020 he played in 44 of 60 games. It's also not his fault that they have had really good catchers there over the last 3 years between him, kirk, and moreno briefly before they traded him.

He also has good contact and on base skills with a career K rate of just over 20 and a walk rate just over 9

He has almost every tool other than speed. He's really good defensively, has power, and makes contact. His baseball savant page from last year is very red and from 2022 it's bright red everywhere.

[Todd]

A 102 wrc+ is not good. He has a career OBP of .302 and a BA barely over the Mendoza line. He turns 29 in a week and his career line outside of Toronto/Buffalo is 214/.298/.396.

He is an objectively garbage player.

[fish16]

A 102 wrc+ is not good. He has a career OBP of .302 and a BA barely over the Mendoza line. He turns 29 in a week and his career line outside of Toronto/Buffalo is 214/.298/.396.

He is an objectively garbage player.

A wrc+ of 102 by definition is above average. League average is 100. That's the entire point of the stat. Also, you said his defense was not very good. There is not a single metric where he is bad defensively. He is above average according to pretty much every metric and has had a few years of greatness defensively.

I have no idea where you get your numbers from. His career away line is .216/.299/.408. He has a career OBP of .308, not .302, and he has a career .743 OPS and that contains the 2019 season where he put up a .643 OPS in close to 400 at bats. His last 3 years have been objectively really fucking good. His career away OPS would be the best we've had from a catcher since JT. Also, all games count. Toronto isnt colorado. It's a good hitters park, it's park factor is 112. Colorado is 138. It's the 8th best hitting park in baseball, but it's not outlandish like Colorado so not sure what you're doing there. Toronto's division also contains baltimore and the yankees which are the 4th and 5th best hitting parks, plus boston which is above average.

Last year Jansen had a .745 OPS on the road. In 2022 it was .885 on the road and .829 at home. in 2021 it was .704 on the road. All of those numbers would by far be our best catcher in years.

[fish16]

this team is just completely unserious. Just complete refusal to allow sanchez to ever hit against a lefty. Garcia has started every game against lefties and Sanchez every game against righties.

[lou]

in what world is campusano going for Luzardo AND Arraez. That's completely absurd. He's been solid finally after years of just being a highly touted prospect, but he also is average at best defensively. The idea that he is worth either of those guys let alone both is ridiculous. Also Salas is a baby but he is also already in A+ ball. He wont be too far behind. Especially because i can almost guarantee you they will sign him to a long term deal probably before he even gets to the majors because their owner isnt a moron like ours. Or you could also go try and steal Diego Cartaya off a down year from the dodgers given that they just signed will smith long term and also have Dalton Rushing at C in the system. The dodgers biggest hole is a lefty reliever.

Also, filling out those blanks is a lot easier when you have a 27 year old stud at 2b and not trading him to create even more holes filled by prospects who wont be impact players right away if ever. Luzardo especially, but also scott, bell, and hopefully anderson can get you those pieces to fill those blanks. Trading arraez is just creating another gaping hole on a team that is already full of holes for next year from a lineup that is bad as it is this year. Luzardo is the piece you deal. He is valuable enough to get you at least 1 cornerstone piece if not that and another solid longterm piece like Westburg (who was a top 60 or so prospect just last year).

Arraez at 13 million is a bargain. Freeing that up is doing nothing for you compared to what he brings to this team. It's ok to keep pieces and build around them. it wont hurt you i promise.

You deal Arraez and that 2025 you've been consistently touting about them circling is gone. Prospects miss constantly, and what you dont ever seem to acknowledge is that the vast majority arent impact guys right away. You deal arraez and you can push the window for contention back another year, if not 2, if not missing it altogether. Luzardo you can replace as they have a ton of depth, arraez you can not. As opposed to penciling in a great 2b, you're just hoping you can eventually develop an unproven prospect into something you can eventually pray reaches 3-4 WAR per year. It's idiotic to trade him, and yet they probably will because this is a loser franchise with a loser owner.

Not to mention, yet again, that the marlins arent signing anyone close to Adames in free agency. IT. Will. Not. Happen. The second you stop projecting "the werth signing" into every single one of your posts the closer we will be to having a realistic discussion. Not sure how many years you have to continue to do that before you realize this.

It is absurd, and no one said that - Obviously other pieces would be involved

Cartaya isn't a bad idea, but Rushing is probably not a longterm catcher FWIW. That Smith deal makes Cartaya interesting for sure.

Arraez also is likely not a 2B for much longer. But if Bruce wants to commit to $120m payrolls, go for it. Arraez is a suitable contending piece for 1B/DH if they will spend money.

Also, yes Arraez is a bargain at a $13-14m projection in arbitration in 2025, but that will balloon to $18-22m average for multiple seasons after that. And if that is wrong, it's because they gave him an 8+ year deal like Nimmo and Reynolds so they can deflect the income further out, but then you have him on the books when he's in his mid 30s for over $15m-$17m a season so pick your poison. Personally, I think a shorter, more expensive, deal is the smart move for Arraez versus getting bogged down later. But maybe you aim that for after a contending window and don't care about a scary looking 2030-2032.

No one is saying prospects don't miss consistently, but if there is a $110m payroll cap (and it might be LOWER), it's really hard to have a non-defender eating up close to 20% of that IMO, when you can turn this player into a legitimate top 50-75 prospect easily + recoup the money to do something else with.

And what do you think they do? They CONSTANTLY push the window back a year. Look at this OFFSEASON which you are the sole person who isn't completely insulted about and everyone here thinks you're nuts that they didn't do anything to improve a playoff team? HUH?????

Lastly, if the don't sign serious free agents in free agency, nothing matters here as they need an outward bump they do not have internally. There is no way around this with or without Arraez. If your position is they will not sign anyone in free agency even if they shed payroll all the way down to low $60-70m - which they can do - we need to stop talking about just moving Bell, Arraez, Luzardo, and Scott, and we need to add Jazz (unless extended for 5 years), Sanchez, Rogers, Puk, Bender, DLC, and Gordon to that list, as after this season, those guys have 2, 3, 2, 2, 3, 3, and 3 years of control left. I would add Burger too as he is a corner player and you can replace those guys and he may have over inflated value right now on a high. Those guys do fall apart quicker than others historically. It's a complete scorch earth if you're not spending money in 2025, and you move literally everyone that is in arbitration except Garrett and Cabrera (because they have 4 years of control still as Super2s and you can't replace pitching). You light this on complete fire and start the rebuild with Sandy, Eury, Garrett, Cabrera, Max, Weathers, Nardi, your trade returns, the few guys you may have left (Edwards? Myers? Mesa Jr? Sixto? Maldonado? Fortes? Banfield?), and that's it. You have 12-15 roster spots to fill easily, but you did just trade Luzardo, Arraez, Jazz, Scott, Rogers, Puk, Sanchez, and others, so you probably can fill half those spots with some excellent young guys coming back and we get back to the same question - payroll is now $45m and you have 7-10 spots to fill and would Bruce spend money NOW that only Sandy is on the books?

You want a realistic discussion, this is it. Because the current team doesn't work, so it's anticipating they would spend to 2023 levels in 2025 after moving out some contracts and trusting Bendix to identify the right prospects in trades, OR burn it to the ground except basically carrying those 6-7 pitchers mentioned above and its a complete bat rebuild top to bottom of prospects and free agents. There is no half ass fix here which you're saying in just trade Luzardo. They need so much more. So much more. So many things need to happen.

[lou]

this team is just completely unserious. Just complete refusal to allow sanchez to ever hit against a lefty. Garcia has started every game against lefties and Sanchez every game against righties.

Yes, see post above and this.

Completely unserious. So many things must happen.

[fish16]

It is absurd, and no one said that - Obviously other pieces would be involved

Cartaya isn't a bad idea, but Rushing is probably not a longterm catcher FWIW. That Smith deal makes Cartaya interesting for sure.

Arraez also is likely not a 2B for much longer. But if Bruce wants to commit to $120m payrolls, go for it. Arraez is a suitable contending piece for 1B/DH if they will spend money.

Also, yes Arraez is a bargain at a $13-14m projection in arbitration in 2025, but that will balloon to $18-22m average for multiple seasons after that. And if that is wrong, it's because they gave him an 8+ year deal like Nimmo and Reynolds so they can deflect the income further out, but then you have him on the books when he's in his mid 30s for over $15m-$17m a season so pick your poison. Personally, I think a shorter, more expensive, deal is the smart move for Arraez versus getting bogged down later. But maybe you aim that for after a contending window and don't care about a scary looking 2030-2032.

No one is saying prospects don't miss consistently, but if there is a $110m payroll cap (and it might be LOWER), it's really hard to have a non-defender eating up close to 20% of that IMO, when you can turn this player into a legitimate top 50-75 prospect easily + recoup the money to do something else with.

And what do you think they do? They CONSTANTLY push the window back a year. Look at this OFFSEASON which you are the sole person who isn't completely insulted about and everyone here thinks you're nuts that they didn't do anything to improve a playoff team? HUH?????

Lastly, if the don't sign serious free agents in free agency, nothing matters here as they need an outward bump they do not have internally. There is no way around this with or without Arraez. If your position is they will not sign anyone in free agency even if they shed payroll all the way down to low $60-70m - which they can do - we need to stop talking about just moving Bell, Arraez, Luzardo, and Scott, and we need to add Jazz (unless extended for 5 years), Sanchez, Rogers, Puk, Bender, DLC, and Gordon to that list, as after this season, those guys have 2, 3, 2, 2, 3, 3, and 3 years of control left. I would add Burger too as he is a corner player and you can replace those guys and he may have over inflated value right now on a high. Those guys do fall apart quicker than others historically. It's a complete scorch earth if you're not spending money in 2025, and you move literally everyone that is in arbitration except Garrett and Cabrera (because they have 4 years of control still as Super2s and you can't replace pitching). You light this on complete fire and start the rebuild with Sandy, Eury, Garrett, Cabrera, Max, Weathers, Nardi, your trade returns, the few guys you may have left (Edwards? Myers? Mesa Jr? Sixto? Maldonado? Fortes? Banfield?), and that's it. You have 12-15 roster spots to fill easily, but you did just trade Luzardo, Arraez, Jazz, Scott, Rogers, Puk, Sanchez, and others, so you probably can fill half those spots with some excellent young guys coming back and we get back to the same question - payroll is now $45m and you have 7-10 spots to fill and would Bruce spend money NOW that only Sandy is on the books?

You want a realistic discussion, this is it. Because the current team doesn't work, so it's anticipating they would spend to 2023 levels in 2025 after moving out some contracts and trusting Bendix to identify the right prospects in trades, OR burn it to the ground except basically carrying those 6-7 pitchers mentioned above and its a complete bat rebuild top to bottom of prospects and free agents. There is no half ass fix here which you're saying in just trade Luzardo. They need so much more. So much more. So many things need to happen.

Luzardo, Scott, Bell, Anderson is not half ass. It's just not trading the best pure hitter in baseball at age 27 on a team with an already bad lineup. If you add Mayo/Kjerstad/Cowser and Westburg and then Campusano for say Scott, Betancourt and Noble Meyer or some sort of deal where we get Campusano and they get help for this year AND beyond given their future payroll outlay, you can very easily compete next year with just a few relatively minor moves in free agency. OR you just deal scott for cartaya when the Dodgers biggest need is a lefty reliever and you keep Meyer. You dont need to burn the whole thing down when you still have Sandy, Eury, Garrett, Meyer, Weathers, Rogers, Puk, Cabrera. That's more than enough high quality talent to compete with a lineup that is remotely competent and has 2-3 more long term pieces. Sandy and Eury when healthy are 2 of the best pitchers in baseball, they just need a re-tool to get some fresh young high quality talent in this lineup to complement the rotation.

C- Campusano or Cartaya
1b- Burger
2b- Westburg
SS- ?
3b- Mayo
LF- Gordon/cheap corner OF free agent that is always available every year (see Duvall)
CF- Jazz
RF- Sanchez/platoon bat
DH- Arraez

SP- Sandy/Eury/Garrett/Meyer/Cabrera/Weathers

That is a legitimate team that is cheap as shit with high quality cost controlled cornerstone position players, better rotation than most of baseball, and veteran bats like Arraez, Jazz, and Burger combined with the good young refreshed talent with star potential. That is feasible, and you can do it as soon as next year and compete with a re-build on the fly. The key is Luzardo. They need to deal him now and start the process for next year. He is the yelich/JT piece that we need to get right this time.

[fish16]

Corbin Burnes and Jesus Luzardo and Greyson Rodriguez with the orioles absurd young core of position players would win the world series this year. Just saying. They are going to be the new astros for the next decade.