2023 Game Thread

[fish16]

i dont think the rockies have even named a starter for tonight and tomorrow yet. Tomorrow was supposed to be seabold but i believe they moved him to the bullpen yesterday moving forward.

[lou]

It’s ALL Super 2 related like lou said.

lou, can you remind me how long Eury needs to stay down?

He was up 5/12 to 7/7, so that is 57 days of service time if I am doing those day counts correctly. Historical Super 2 deadlines are 120-130 service days, so take your pick. It was 115 and 116 recently, but that was more of an outlier. Last few deadlines were 128, 116, 125, 115, 134, 123, 131, 130, and 133 days.

I’d set the range at 63-67 days left on the active roster. Playoffs don’t count to mention.

October - 1
September - 30
August - 31
=62 days

August 1st is pretty safe IMO. Considering that is when they need a 5th SP, that makes a lot of sense. If they do trade for a SP, kicking Eury to the Texas/Cincy away trip becomes even safer. They can also name Eury the 5th SP for next year, and open him in the minors until his turn in the rotation game 5 or 6 in April (as they’ll probably have an early off day) and have an extra reliever up a week. So they can shave anything else needed there if their count looks to be a few games off.

To mention Elly De La Cruz was called up June 6th. That is 118 service days for him until the end of the season. The Reds have to feel *really* confident about that number given his prospect status, and they probably hedged a few days on top of that if they are wrong by a few days. 118 days for Eury is..... August 2nd.

So I’ll pick August 1st, and at latest the Tex/Cin away trip. If the count appears to be off, they'll open with him in AAA next year and use an excuse of wanting an extra early season reliever as Eury would just be sitting on the bench. To note, Aldy and Julio received bonus service time on performance, so Eury may do that also so all of this may be for nothing if he comes out and pitches 30 shut out innings. But he'll have to be the top rookie and that might be difficult with Elly and some others.

[lou]

i know, it's just such a minor league franchise thing to do given our performance this year prior to him being sent down. this front office deserves to miss the playoffs pulling shit like that to save money years down the road as opposed to trying to make the playoffs this year. Saving some innings for him for the playoffs is going to be awesome when they miss the playoffs entirely in part to him not being up here for a critical month.

I respectfully think this is way overblown. Regardless of any showing fatigue arguments, he's going to throw X innings this year. Probably closer to 110 like they've said, but maybe he is cruising so well it's another 10 and closer to 120. Whether they sent him down a few weeks ago, or shut him down in September by having kept throwing him, he'll have thrown the same number of innings for the club. So they have "lost" literally no Eury innings at the MLB level which is important. So I'm not sure how we can annoyed when we understand two facts: (1) he's going to throw the same number of innings at the MLB level because he has a limit on his arm as a 20 year old and (2) the path they choose saves money. I'm not a doctor so I'm not going to speculate on whether whatever this shut down is is going to hurt him, but the Marlins do have doctors and trainers and have been very good developing this staff so I would personally defer to them as they know better. Let's not have this slump frustration change the big picture. Approximately 10 Eury innings in July are being shifted to September. That is all that is happening, and literally over 8 digits is being saved via arbitration assuming he does hold up as a stud. That's going to radically impact extension negotiations and we will be happy when that gets done. I'd bet on a Hunter Greene type extension this offseason.

I'd blast them hard on Edwards/Hampson at this point, not making trades to date, and especially no Swanson/Correa/Xander/Turner/Nimmo in the offseason. Those are the things where I'd say they deserve to miss the playoffs. This Eury thing seems like an excuse to complain. It's a drop in the Bruce ocean of problems for me. If I am wrong though and he's not throwing 25-30 MLB innings rest of the year, I'm going to have serious WTF vibes.

Just to mention also, I'm probably pitching him 8 more times in approximate 4 inning bursts. That's 116 innings. That gets you to the last week of the season where you can throw him 1 more for a do or die make the playoffs game, or he is just really shut down because the team imploded and that's a healthy year of innings for him to set up optimistically 140 next year. Playoffs would be a short burst reliever for sure. Pitch him 2 innings every 4th day max, etc.

[Nick]

I respectfully think this is way overblown. Regardless of any showing fatigue arguments, he's going to throw X innings this year. Probably closer to 110 like they've said, but maybe he is cruising so well it's another 10 and closer to 120. Whether they sent him down a few weeks ago, or shut him down in September by having kept throwing him, he'll have thrown the same number of innings for the club. So they have "lost" literally no Eury innings at the MLB level which is important. So I'm not sure how we can annoyed when we understand two facts: (1) he's going to throw the same number of innings at the MLB level because he has a limit on his arm as a 20 year old and (2) the path they choose saves money. I'm not a doctor so I'm not going to speculate on whether whatever this shut down is is going to hurt him, but the Marlins do have doctors and trainers and have been very good developing this staff so I would personally defer to them as they know better. Let's not have this slump frustration change the big picture. Approximately 10 Eury innings in July are being shifted to September. That is all that is happening, and literally over 8 digits is being saved via arbitration assuming he does hold up as a stud. That's going to radically impact extension negotiations and we will be happy when that gets done. I'd bet on a Hunter Greene type extension this offseason.

I'd blast them hard on Edwards/Hampson at this point, not making trades to date, and especially no Swanson/Correa/Xander/Turner/Nimmo in the offseason. Those are the things where I'd say they deserve to miss the playoffs. This Eury thing seems like an excuse to complain. It's a drop in the Bruce ocean of problems for me. If I am wrong though and he's not throwing 25-30 MLB innings rest of the year, I'm going to have serious WTF vibes.

Just to mention also, I'm probably pitching him 8 more times in approximate 4 inning bursts. That's 116 innings. That gets you to the last week of the season where you can throw him 1 more for a do or die make the playoffs game, or he is just really shut down because the team imploded and that's a healthy year of innings for him to set up optimistically 140 next year. Playoffs would be a short burst reliever for sure. Pitch him 2 innings every 4th day max, etc.

This is simply not a fact. Yes you are putting him more at risk the more innnings/pitches he throws in a season, but there is no "limit on his arm as a 20-year old."

[fish16]

This is simply not a fact. Yes you are putting him more at risk the more innnings/pitches he throws in a season, but there is no "limit on his arm as a 20-year old."

Exactly. The limit is a made up number. And limits have not exactly proven to prevent arm injuries anyways. So the fact that 1) the innings limit is absurdly low and just completely made up and doesnt take into consideration spring innings or bullpen sessions and 2) he has shown 0 signs of fatigue and quite frankly was one of the best pitchers in baseball for several months immediately makes it absurd. They are saving him for important september/october innings that wont exist if he is down for much longer instead of just monitoring the fucking guy and not overdoing it for him and then shutting him down if anything comes up. It's just a stupid thing to do in the best season this franchise has had since 2003.

Let's be real though. It's about money. I dont give a flying fuck about a professional sports owner having to pay more 5-7 years down the line. They should sign him to an extension long before that even comes up at that point. It's not badass, it's not amazing, it's fucking cheapness and an insult to the fans who care about this team and want to see them do everything in their power to win this year. They are actively putting themselves in a worse position this year with the bullshit guise of saving eury's arm and being careful with him when we all know it's about money. If we were fully healthy, ok fine, i get it, we have a deep crop of Starting pitching. But we arent. our entire pitching staff is in fucking shambles for weeks now due to injuries. and they send one of the best pitchers in baseball down for a bullshit excuse when it is really to save money years down the line. It's a fucking disgrace and they deserve to miss the playoffs by a few games for doing it.

The bullshit math of "oh he is only missing 2 starts" is just nonsense. He is missing several turns in the rotation that he should be starting and not Okert, Hoeing, Cueto, etc. It's not whether the 5th spot comes up a lot while he is down in the minors. It's whether someone is starting a game that would be eury's slot in the rotation. He is not our 5th starter. To do the math like that is knowingly disingenuous.

[lou]

This is simply not a fact. Yes you are putting him more at risk the more innnings/pitches he throws in a season, but there is no "limit on his arm as a 20-year old."

Agree to disagree. The Marlins have said (via at least Mish reporting anyways) there is an innings limit with the reasoning they don't want to over expose a 20 year old arm with a workload. I think it's generally understood in the industry to not throw these guys hard until they fully develop into their bodies, as they are still growing. You don't see many 20 year olds throwing much. Felix and Jose are unicorns, but maybe you are right and Eury is a unicorn like them. Sandy was in the 120 IP range as a 20 year old for some perspective. I'd be cautious like the Marlins personally.

Also if you guys want to let him rip, he can get 9-10 more starts starting August 1st. If he's throwing 5-6 innings per start, that's 45-60 more innings, and would be 129-144 innings in the regular season. I think we'd all agree, that would be a lot for a guy throwing 77 last year and a 155 combined the last two seasons as a professional. We'll see what they do. This once just doesn't do it for me. Nothing is standing in his way for whatever innings they want to throw him (whether 110 or 140 as has been argued) and it saves money. If there is some medical reason to have not "shut him down" with whatever it is they are doing behind the scenes, I think that's a bigger story. But I'm not a doctor. But if they fucked up there, just wow. Can't imagine it with how big of a future he has. We'll see.

[Lee Stone]

I respectfully think this is way overblown. Regardless of any showing fatigue arguments, he's going to throw X innings this year. Probably closer to 110 like they've said, but maybe he is cruising so well it's another 10 and closer to 120. Whether they sent him down a few weeks ago, or shut him down in September by having kept throwing him, he'll have thrown the same number of innings for the club. So they have "lost" literally no Eury innings at the MLB level which is important. So I'm not sure how we can annoyed when we understand two facts: (1) he's going to throw the same number of innings at the MLB level because he has a limit on his arm as a 20 year old and (2) the path they choose saves money. I'm not a doctor so I'm not going to speculate on whether whatever this shut down is is going to hurt him, but the Marlins do have doctors and trainers and have been very good developing this staff so I would personally defer to them as they know better. Let's not have this slump frustration change the big picture. Approximately 10 Eury innings in July are being shifted to September. That is all that is happening, and literally over 8 digits is being saved via arbitration assuming he does hold up as a stud. That's going to radically impact extension negotiations and we will be happy when that gets done. I'd bet on a Hunter Greene type extension this offseason.

I'd blast them hard on Edwards/Hampson at this point, not making trades to date, and especially no Swanson/Correa/Xander/Turner/Nimmo in the offseason. Those are the things where I'd say they deserve to miss the playoffs. This Eury thing seems like an excuse to complain. It's a drop in the Bruce ocean of problems for me. If I am wrong though and he's not throwing 25-30 MLB innings rest of the year, I'm going to have serious WTF vibes.

Just to mention also, I'm probably pitching him 8 more times in approximate 4 inning bursts. That's 116 innings. That gets you to the last week of the season where you can throw him 1 more for a do or die make the playoffs game, or he is just really shut down because the team imploded and that's a healthy year of innings for him to set up optimistically 140 next year. Playoffs would be a short burst reliever for sure. Pitch him 2 innings every 4th day max, etc.

Jon Berti has a higher OPS than Trae Turner and close to the same as Carlos Correa.

[lou]

Exactly. The limit is a made up number. And limits have not exactly proven to prevent arm injuries anyways. So the fact that 1) the innings limit is absurdly low and just completely made up and doesnt take into consideration spring innings or bullpen sessions and 2) he has shown 0 signs of fatigue and quite frankly was one of the best pitchers in baseball for several months immediately makes it absurd. They are saving him for important september/october innings that wont exist if he is down for much longer instead of just monitoring the fucking guy and not overdoing it for him and then shutting him down if anything comes up. It's just a stupid thing to do in the best season this franchise has had since 2003.

Let's be real though. It's about money. I dont give a flying fuck about a professional sports owner having to pay more 5-7 years down the line. They should sign him to an extension long before that even comes up at that point. It's not badass, it's not amazing, it's fucking cheapness and an insult to the fans who care about this team and want to see them do everything in their power to win this year. They are actively putting themselves in a worse position this year with the bullshit guise of saving eury's arm and being careful with him when we all know it's about money. If we were fully healthy, ok fine, i get it, we have a deep crop of Starting pitching. But we arent. our entire pitching staff is in fucking shambles for weeks now due to injuries. and they send one of the best pitchers in baseball down for a bullshit excuse when it is really to save money years down the line. It's a fucking disgrace and they deserve to miss the playoffs by a few games for doing it.

The bullshit math of "oh he is only missing 2 starts" is just nonsense. He is missing several turns in the rotation that he should be starting and not Okert, Hoeing, Cueto, etc. It's not whether the 5th spot comes up a lot while he is down in the minors. It's whether someone is starting a game that would be eury's slot in the rotation. He is not our 5th starter. To do the math like that is knowingly disingenuous.

That extension is $10m less if he isn't a super 2 and he can easily throw 110-140 innings, so respectfully, the math of whatever his capacity still works even with this "shut down." This is an over reaction to me. This is a smart decision absent a medical concern and I am not a doctor. However if you want to sell me he should be up until the trade for a SP, and then send him down once that guy could be in the rotation (or move him to a multi inning reliever), that does make some sense on a usage level to bridge out his innings. That's the best that can be rationally argued here so as to avoid that Hoeing/bullpen two games.

[lou]

Jon Berti has a higher OPS than Trae Turner and close to the same as Carlos Correa.

And? Surely, we would prefer the team to try and sign a superstar. They would be big differences to this team.

[fish16]

That extension is $10m less if he isn't a super 2 and he can easily throw 110-140 innings, so respectfully, the math of whatever his capacity still works even with this "shut down." This is an over reaction to me. This is a smart decision absent a medical concern and I am not a doctor. However if you want to sell me he should be up until the trade for a SP, and then send him down once that guy could be in the rotation (or move him to a multi inning reliever), that does make some sense on a usage level to bridge out his innings. That's the best that can be rationally argued here so as to avoid that Hoeing/bullpen two games.

i dont give a fuck whether bruce saves money 5-7 years down the line. I cannot make that clearer. I give a fuck whether this team isnt actively sabotaging their season in part to save that money years down the line when they were 14 games over .500 and in prime position to make the playoffs. We just started steven fucking okert in a game 3 games out of the all star break while we have one of the best starting pitchers in baseball already sitting on his ass in pensacola showing 0 actual fatigue for no reason other than to save bruce money years down the line.

It's simple, he's not on pace for 200 innings. He showed 0 signs of fatigue. All you have to do is monitor the kid if you actually cared about his health and not saving this guy who has 0 business owning a sports team millions 5-7 years from now. Literally all you have to do is be careful with him without shutting him down. No one is saying throw him 8 innings and pitch him on short rest. But there is 0 reason to shut him down or send him down when he was cruising and showed 0 signs of injury or fatigue.

[rmc523]

And? Surely, we would prefer the team to try and sign a superstar. They would be big differences to this team.

Yup, because then Berti shifts back to the bench as the super utility guy as he should be.

[sports24/7]

great off day. every team in front of us lost. now tied for the 3rd wild card spot with the phillies again. 1.5 behind both the giants and dbacks for the 1st and 2nd wild card spot. hopefully the off day allowed them to regroup and get ready for a series against a team we are a lot better than and need to take advantage of.

maybe bring eury and edwards up and stop acting like youre trying to win and actually try to win? Edwards is hitting .358, .878 OPS, 27/28 in steals, 32 walks to just 14 k's in 279 PA's. And yet we continue to have garrett hampson over him. it’s absurd. He has deserved a call up for going on 2 months.

Edwards should be up and playing. I don’t get their reluctance to play their young players who are hitting in the minors. We all know Dane Myers would be on the bench, or back down in the minors had Davis not gotten hurt, right?

[fish16]

we are starting johnny fucking cueto saturday. just ridiculous.

[fish16]

skip says the 3 meaningless innings in baltimore changed the course for cueto to never pitch in a close game.to now starting less than a week later. we deserve to crater

[Nick]

Incredible.