Valentine Talking to Marlins

[PitchingWinsGames]

Whenever David Samson says things... I sprain my eyes rolling them

[wanks1212]

BY ISRAEL GUTIERREZ
igutierrez@MiamiHerald.com

If it's true that Marlins manager Fredi Gonzalez is on the verge of being replaced, and team president David Samson did nothing to dispel the rumors that have suddenly circulated, then Jeffrey Loria has officially become a meddler.

And not just your ordinary, run-of-the-mill delusional owner who wants so badly to win that he will more than occasionally make a mockery of his organization.

No, Loria would be worse. He would be the delusional owner who wants to win so badly that he makes a mockery of his organization -- but doesn't spend any money in the process.

He's a persistent beggar and a demanding chooser. He's George Steinbrenner with an empty wallet.

It would be a joke, really, that the owner who dishes out the lowest payroll in the majors replaces the manager who guided his team to 87 wins and a second-place finish in the division. Especially when even the most optimistic of baseball experts considered the Marlins a sleeper team with a decent starting rotation and little else.

The Marlins brass, however, considered this team playoff caliber. And now those unrealistic expectations are about to cost Gonzalez his job?

It's beyond ridiculous. It's profound in its stupidity.

UNDER SCRUTINY

There doesn't appear to be any behind-the-scenes secrets in this reported plan to fire Gonzalez. It merely comes down to a disappointed owner who wanted his team to play deep into October and figures another manager could have gotten the Marlins there.

What Gonzalez's in-game decisions in this 162-game season actually translate to in terms of wins and losses is impossible to decipher. But if you look at the numbers, they certainly give no indication that Gonzalez was at fault for the team coming up six games shy of a playoff spot. In fact, they would indicate that the Marlins overperformed this season. The Marlins somehow won 87 games despite only outscoring opponents by six runs for the season. No other National League team did more with a smaller scoring differential.

The Marlins were in the playoff race for most of the second half despite their second-best starting pitcher, Ricky Nolasco, getting off to an inexplicably poor start, and another starter, Chris Volstad, having a slightly disappointing sophomore season.

What part of that was Gonzalez's doing? Was it the manager's fault that Jeremy Hermida once again failed to live up to expectations, or that Cameron Maybin wasn't quite as ready as the team thought he was, or that the closer he was handed, Matt Lindstrom, has a fastball that doesn't move, or that Nick Johnson got hurt in the heart of the playoff race, or that Chris Coghlan wasn't on the big-league roster for the first month of the season?

Not even a little bit.

It says something about Gonzalez that his team was able to tally the third-best win total in franchise history with all that working against him.

Yet there was Samson implying that the team was managed improperly in close contests.

LET THE RECORD SPEAK

``As we looked at the performance and things that happened, games that went one way, games that went another way, there is no question we felt we should have been a playoff team,'' Samson said.

So, basically, the team is upset that the Marlins lost a handful of close games? The Marlins were 30-20 in one-run games this season, the most one-run wins in the NL. And that was without a true closer.

Absurd decisions, though, are becoming a pattern with Loria -- certainly when it comes to his team's managers.

This is the same owner who fired Joe Girardi after his lone season as Marlins manager essentially because they didn't get along. Yet it was Girardi's personality that earned him so much praise while managing that young team in 2006, when he also won NL Manager of the Year honors.

UNFAIR EXPECTATIONS

Loria traded in the abrasive Girardi for a new manager that does exactly as he's told, never ruffles any feathers and actually does a better job than Girardi. Now that's not good enough either?

It's entirely respectable to have high expectations in sports. But it also doesn't hurt to be realistic at times. And the reality here is that Gonzalez should be praised for doing so much with so little.

Instead, he's apparently on the verge of losing his job.

Even if it that doesn't happen. Even if Gonzalez is still the manger of the Marlins next season, this public criticism of his performance (and, really, how else is this supposed to be taken?) already has been damaging.

People in Gonzalez's position rarely survive without support from the front office. And now we know that's the case here.

If it does happen, then Loria will have officially established the worst kind of reputation.

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/story/1266902.html
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Following Sunday's season finale, several players went to bat for Gonzalez, saying they thought he has done a good job and were surprised that his future with the club was in question.

``It kind of shocked me when I heard it [the news], with the job he's done,'' said Wes Helms, a veteran utility player. ``I think he's done a great job considering we had a low payroll and a young team. You can't put the blame on him. You've got to put the blame on us as players.''

Said star shortstop Hanley Ramirez: ``Hopefully he'll be back. I mean, we're over .500. I think we did pretty good. I think we can do better.''

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/ba...y/1266487.html

[emkayseven]

It's crazy, it's like we're the Royals or something. I really don't like Fredi and I happen to think his in-game decisions have cost us a couple games but the ONLY reason to fire him would be if Bonifacio starting as long as he did and/or Lindstrom closing as long as he did and/or Gaby not starting were Fredi's decisions and not forced on him by the FO. IMO the only guy that needs to be fired is Bo Porter, but I'd bet he sticks around.

Now...does anyone think that they're threatening this and might do it in order to save face when they get rid of a bunch of players? As in, being able to say in December, "This isn't a fire sale. Yes, we got rid of Uggla, Cantu, Ross, and Hermida and didn't resign Nick Johnson, but that was because we were disappointed with this season, which you can see by the fact that we fired our coaching staff after an 87 win season."

[Fritz]

I think most of the people here are thinking the FO is laying the groundwork for yet another firesale. That's the first thing I thought when the line about "we could've been as good a team with $4 million less in payroll". I'm gonna hate Uggla in a Cubs uniform.

[Beef]

It's crazy, it's like we're the Royals or something. I really don't like Fredi and I happen to think his in-game decisions have cost us a couple games but the ONLY reason to fire him would be if Bonifacio starting as long as he did and/or Lindstrom closing as long as he did and/or Gaby not starting were Fredi's decisions and not forced on him by the FO. IMO the only guy that needs to be fired is Bo Porter, but I'd bet he sticks around.

Now...does anyone think that they're threatening this and might do it in order to save face when they get rid of a bunch of players? As in, being able to say in December, "This isn't a fire sale. Yes, we got rid of Uggla, Cantu, Ross, and Hermida and didn't resign Nick Johnson, but that was because we were disappointed with this season, which you can see by the fact that we fired our coaching staff after an 87 win season."

Every manager gon make in game decisions that you will think cost us a couple games. Those guys arent the manager right now so we cant complain about them letting our crappy closers close.

[Ramp]

We have to be in the lower level of organizations in pro sports right? Marlins, Clippers, Browns... who else am I missing? Coyotes? Panthers? Raiders?

[emkayseven]

Definitely the Raiders

[Swifty]

Panthers are far and away the worst in pro sports. Their ownership group, after the newest sale fell through, actually considered abandoning them.

I'd say we're the absolute bottom in baseball. Maybe you put the Pirates behind us because they try and suck but at least they suck "the right way." We're an embarrassment to everything "major" about major league baseball. Basically the Clippers of MLB. There's enough right with the city that every time a select FA is flirting with leaving his dream franchise, the Marlins/Clippers pop up as a sports writer's "why not?" and then everyone remembers they're the Marlins/Clippers, that's why not, and just goes on with their business

Nobody tops the Raiders though.

[Metes]

Raiders find new ways to define futility... at least we've had some success despite the Babe Ruth League front office.

[wanks1212]

We have to be in the lower level of organizations in pro sports right? Marlins, Clippers, Browns... who else am I missing? Coyotes? Panthers? Raiders?

/funny because the guy can't even correctly spell lions, even though it's on his own jersey

[Swifty]

He spelled embarrassed wrong, too.

[Beef]

/funny because wanks didnt even notice!

[Sashimi]

There is no way we are on par with organizations that have had long periods of on-field futility. However bush-league you think the ownership's tactics are, you cannot argue with the fact that they have presided over teams that have produced more wins per dollar spent than any other team in baseball, not to mention a WS title, whether by accident or not. To me, the Pirates have to be regarded as at the bottom of the barrel and the Nationals are certainly headed there, too. Even the Cubs are laughable for doing so little with so much money.

I agree that it does seem unfair that Fredi's job should be in jeopardy after a season in which the team clearly overachieved (and Samson's statement about doing better with $ 4 million less is just outright stupid), but if they want to go out and spend more money to 'upgrade' their manager, I don't have a problem with that. It would be more egregious if they fired Fredi to hire some even cheaper no-name guy.

But I still do not believe that this is simply about ownership being unhappy with the results on the field. There's got to be more to this.

[Swifty]

I think there comes a point where you say we're winning in spite of the organization, not because of it.

Giving them credit for "wins per dollar" or whatever other stuff you want to come up with is silly. As many great moves we've had, we've had just as many missteps. An unmistakable brain trust should not open itself to second guessing as frequently as we have, post 2003, and that's not just with personnel moves; it's public relations nightmares, it's taking what should be a decent thing and pounding it into irrelevancy.

[FishFanInPA]

The Redskins are pretty bad.