Marlins 2017-2018 Offseason Discussion Thread

[Maddawg]

They can honestly do no wrong in your eyes can they? No matter who they trade or what they get you are full on drinking the Hill/Jeter Kool aid.

This guy is totally a team shill over on Marlinsbaseball.com too. He is either a paid team shill or just too naive to know better....or he could be just a troll playing a good game right now.

[Party]

Clark Spencer is reporting all the paid shills were traded to the Red Sox to do their bidding on SOSH.

[rmc523]

I mean, maybe this is just me, but I think it's a bad time to seriously consider moving Yelich or really anyone else yet, at least at this point.

I mean why?

These guys are still young, still cheap, and will be both of those things going forward. Unless you think someone is due for some serious regression, it doesn't make sense to trade them at this very second. I mean, you'd be selling low. The only way you'd get those prospects you're all talking about is if Yelich becomes the "future batting champ" type player that's been thrown around, and honestly, at that point, I subscribe to the one in the hand philosophy.

Assuming that Yelich is just what he's been to this point for the remaineder of his Marlins career, which is still really good and likely good enough to get All-Star consideration this year, you'd get just as much if not more by moving him at the deadline, or this time next year, or in the 2019 season.

Ditto that for Bour and Realmuto.

EDIT: Only reason they traded Ozuna is because he was going to get more money than they were willing to spend on a losing team and I don't even need to get back into the Stanton move. Those were necessary, at least in the organization's eye, but the other moves aren't.

I still find it amusing that ownership thinks they're going to increase revenue after all these moves.

[fish16]

This guy is totally a team shill over on Marlinsbaseball.com too. He is either a paid team shill or just too naive to know better....or he could be just a troll playing a good game right now.

or maybe im just optimistic that this franchise finally realizes how they have to build their team in order to compete annually rather than the loria era where there was never a plan whatsoever.

[Maddawg]

or maybe im just optimistic that this franchise finally realizes how they have to build their team in order to compete annually rather than the loria era where there was never a plan whatsoever.

Realizing how you have to have a plan to rebuild the team is the easy part, but just because you know how doesn't mean you will be able to do it. Unless you have the right people in place you can rebuild every year it still won't change the ourcome. So far I agree with them doing what they have done, just not the results of their attempt to correct this situation. You seem convinced Hill can be part of this an are ok with him still being there. I am not, and so far the returns have most underwhelming. Are counting on the draft, again that is known weakness of Hill's/ Our barren farm system is proof of that (even if they hadn't taded away a couple pf the guys it would still be 25th or less). So we are supposed to count on Hill hitting on 2 or 3 descent picks when he's shown after multiple drafts his incompetence. Good luck with that.

[lou]

Realizing how you have to have a plan to rebuild the team is the easy part, but just because you know how doesn't mean you will be able to do it. Unless you have the right people in place you can rebuild every year it still won't change the ourcome. So far I agree with them doing what they have done, just not the results of their attempt to correct this situation. You seem convinced Hill can be part of this an are ok with him still being there. I am not, and so far the returns have most underwhelming. Are counting on the draft, again that is known weakness of Hill's/ Our barren farm system is proof of that (even if they hadn't taded away a couple pf the guys it would still be 25th or less). So we are supposed to count on Hill hitting on 2 or 3 descent picks when he's shown after multiple drafts his incompetence. Good luck with that.

To be objective, it is impossible to know how much Loria influenced the draft with purse strings. Hill deserves criticism for the shape of the farm and being part of some of the more lousy trades (Cosart, Turner, DeScalfani, potentially Straily/Castillo, etc.), but it's not like he has been given a lot of support through underslot required picks, no real IF money to spend to get an extra few guys, etc. I'm not being completely sympathetic here, but some of the complaints about Hill can't solely fall on him. He has been working with a hand tied behind his back for years. Maybe he's still not a great executive with better hypothetical organizational support, but I can't just firebomb the guy when Loria was around being Loria.

Anyways, I agree with you that they are making the right moves, but the results of those moves are very questionable. I'm not going to get upset about it until we see how it shakes out in a year. I know it's easy to just assume they will whiff on all of the new guys because of how things have been going lately with Kolek and Garret blowing out their arms, but again to be objective, Hill was part of the front office who drafted Fernandez, Stanton, Yelich, Realmuto, signed Ozuna when he was a baby, found Bour out of thin air, etc. We'll know in a year, and if everyone stinks, he's going to be gone.

[Maddawg]

To be objective, it is impossible to know how much Loria influenced the draft with purse strings. Hill deserves criticism for the shape of the farm and being part of some of the more lousy trades (Cosart, Turner, DeScalfani, potentially Straily/Castillo, etc.), but it's not like he has been given a lot of support through underslot required picks, no real IF money to spend to get an extra few guys, etc. I'm not being completely sympathetic here, but some of the complaints about Hill can't solely fall on him. He has been working with a hand tied behind his back for years. Maybe he's still not a great executive with better hypothetical organizational support, but I can't just firebomb the guy when Loria was around being Loria.

Anyways, I agree with you that they are making the right moves, but the results of those moves are very questionable. I'm not going to get upset about it until we see how it shakes out in a year. I know it's easy to just assume they will whiff on all of the new guys because of how things have been going lately with Kolek and Garret blowing out their arms, but again to be objective, Hill was part of the front office who drafted Fernandez, Stanton, Yelich, Realmuto, signed Ozuna when he was a baby, found Bour out of thin air, etc. We'll know in a year, and if everyone stinks, he's going to be gone.

Well if you are going to assume Loria was so involved, you can't say and assume if Loria was involved it was only the bad ones, and Hill only the good ones. Beacause we don't know. Who knows maybe Loria insisted on Realmuto and Hill was pissed as he took him. I can't and won't give him a total pass....

[rmc523]

Moved the Project Wolverine discussion to its own thread:

http://soflamarlins.com/showthread.p...625#post387625

An article from Frisaro

https://www.mlb.com/marlins/news/mar...up/c-264156398

From an organizational standpoint, the Marlins are addressing their most pressing need: overall pitching at every level. The Ozuna and Stanton trades netted them, in part, Minor League right-handers Sandy Alcantara and Jorge Guzman.

Alcantara and Guzman are ranked as Miami's first and second prospects, respectively, by MLB Pipeline. Both project as top-of-the-rotation candidates.

......

The Marlins' revamped system now has eight pitchers on its top-10 prospect list. Outfielder Magneuris Sierra and third baseman Brian Anderson -- rated fifth and sixth -- are the only position players.

With pitching at the forefront, the Marlins are also not losing sight that they now have a shortage of power hitters, especially in the outfield, for this season.

As part of their restructuring, the Marlins continue to search for home run threats, especially from the right side.

"Absolutely, we're looking for guys who can provide power in the middle of the lineup," vice president of player development and scouting Gary Denbo said. "If you look at all of the teams that finished in the American League and National League [playoffs], they all had that element in their lineup. It's something that you absolutely need to be able to compete for championships.

"Our scouts are looking to identify those guys. They certainly don't grow on trees, I can tell you that. It's something that is very difficult to find."

...

The Marlins aren't in the market for high-end free agents to help provide some pop for the short term. Their vision is more long range. They're also hopeful to develop players already in their system.

[lou]

Well if you are going to assume Loria was so involved, you can't say and assume if Loria was involved it was only the bad ones, and Hill only the good ones. Beacause we don't know. Who knows maybe Loria insisted on Realmuto and Hill was pissed as he took him. I can't and won't give him a total pass....

Of course. I'm just saying, some around think Hill is the devil incarnate based on some of the more recent moves the last few seasons. It's convenient to point to him as the fall guy, but I just can't with what he has had to deal with. It's a short leash though.

[rmc523]

Of course. I'm just saying, some around think Hill is the devil incarnate based on some of the more recent moves the last few seasons. It's convenient to point to him as the fall guy, but I just can't with what he has had to deal with. It's a short leash though.

I think a lot of the moves were Loria-driven. Loria says "I want to acquire major league starters now!" Hill says, the top end guys will cost more money, or we can get these other guys buy dealing these prospects. Loria cares about the money, so he picks the prospect deal, ignoring the fact that who we're acquiring isn't good.

That said, Hill would be the one putting the deals together. Meaning Loria may say "I want a ML starter", but Hill would be the one to target a player(s) (to be fair, as pointed out, who to target may be limited by $$ he can spend and the level of prospects we've had) and set up the deal (send player X, Y, and Z for player A). So Loria would likely have ultimate say of whether to pull the trigger, but Hill would be the guy setting up who we're giving up.

My point being - neither Loria nor Hill can be given full blame - and I would personally have rather had Hill taken out of a position of power just to get rid of anybody having to do with Loria. But he's still there, so we'll see what he can do. So far, I've been very underwhelmed by the returns in the trades to this point....however, I guess it could also be argued that he's again being told "get rid of the money, take whatever they offer" rather than sitting back and waiting for a better return, so who knows?

[Nick]

Of course. I'm just saying, some around think Hill is the devil incarnate based on some of the more recent moves the last few seasons. It's convenient to point to him as the fall guy, but I just can't with what he has had to deal with. It's a short leash though.

You would think though that a new regime coming in, if they really have a solid plan for turning the organization around, would have their own guy.

[lou]

My point being - neither Loria nor Hill can be given full blame - and I would personally have rather had Hill taken out of a position of power just to get rid of anybody having to do with Loria. But he's still there, so we'll see what he can do. So far, I've been very underwhelmed by the returns in the trades to this point....however, I guess it could also be argued that he's again being told "get rid of the money, take whatever they offer" rather than sitting back and waiting for a better return, so who knows?

Who knows is the answer, with a short leash if things don't go well. I'm just saying, I don't want to be homerism-sympathetic to Hill, but it's not like he's been equipped to succeed either. I just can't fault these guys for keeping him (they did basically clear house of everyone else important).

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You would think though that a new regime coming in, if they really have a solid plan for turning the organization around, would have their own guy.

Isn't that Denbo

[Nick]

Who knows is the answer, with a short leash if things don't go well. I'm just saying, I don't want to be homerism-sympathetic to Hill, but it's not like he's been equipped to succeed either. I just can't fault these guys for keeping him (they did basically clear house of everyone else important).

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Isn't that Denbo

Then why doesn't he have Hill's Job? Jeter is a fall guy for Sherman, and Hill is a fall guy for Denbo? That certainly gives me confidence for the future.

[Namaste]

https://deadspin.com/marlins-plan-no...1821724544/amp

[tjfla]

Then why doesn't he have Hill's Job? Jeter is a fall guy for Sherman, and Hill is a fall guy for Denbo? That certainly gives me confidence for the future.

Because Denbo is focusing on the minors right now. By 2020 Gary Denbo will have Mike Hill's job and title. The "big" picture starts in 2020,right now its about getting guys who will be ready by then and Denbo is committed to that right now. Scout/Draft/IFA. U think Mike Hill was the one who got Cooper/Smith and wanted Guzman and Devers? HELL NO-Denbo wanted these guys

Sherman has NOTHING to do with this team. The only reason he is majority owner is because they wouldn't let Jeter since he only has like 3%. He put up the cash and wouldn't be surprised if eventually Jeter gets sick of the job and Mas buys the team

- - - - - - - - - -

I think a lot of the moves were Loria-driven. Loria says "I want to acquire major league starters now!" Hill says, the top end guys will cost more money, or we can get these other guys buy dealing these prospects. Loria cares about the money, so he picks the prospect deal, ignoring the fact that who we're acquiring isn't good.

That said, Hill would be the one putting the deals together. Meaning Loria may say "I want a ML starter", but Hill would be the one to target a player(s) (to be fair, as pointed out, who to target may be limited by $$ he can spend and the level of prospects we've had) and set up the deal (send player X, Y, and Z for player A). So Loria would likely have ultimate say of whether to pull the trigger, but Hill would be the guy setting up who we're giving up.

My point being - neither Loria nor Hill can be given full blame - and I would personally have rather had Hill taken out of a position of power just to get rid of anybody having to do with Loria. But he's still there, so we'll see what he can do. So far, I've been very underwhelmed by the returns in the trades to this point....however, I guess it could also be argued that he's again being told "get rid of the money, take whatever they offer" rather than sitting back and waiting for a better return, so who knows?

Mike Hill had some to do with it all but most of this was Jeff. Jeff would start drooling over a guy and then pay whatever the team wanted. MLB teams all knew about this which is why they did business with us. Jeff wants Rodney and SD says Paddock. U think Jeff even heard of Chris Paddock? NO. He tells Mike Hill to get it done so he does

We saw some of what Mike Hill can do in the Phelps/AJ trades. Jeff had ZERO to do with it

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In Yelich news,looks like the Cubs are trying to get in on him. No real talks but have mentioned Albert Almora,Ian Happ and prospects(Victor Caratini,Alzolay-Yes Cubs prospects SUCK). Atlanta/Philly/SD(if they get Hosmer) still faves

Still looks like Yelich will be dealt and JT is possible. They wanna work on Yelich first

Straily is still getting bites. Cubs interested in Straily,Ziegler and Bearclaw