Loria Encouraged Reyes to Buy House in Miami Days Before Trade

[Ramp]

Well yea, that's ridiculous

(I'm in agreement here)

[Todd]

because loria makes all the personnel decisions?

[Swifty]

Swift - do you think other gms and owners aren't lying to players and potential players because its not a business so they do t have to

Without having a definition/context for 'lying' I will say that I don't think any other MLB franchise operates with the same disregard for players/agents/fans as the Marlins.
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IMO, they got more than enough time to show something. All they showed was they were not even a .500 team with as much money as they were making.

Only 2 hitters showed up last season (Reyes and Stanton... and I guess Infante too). The starting pitching wasn't good enough and we all know about the bullpen. It's not like there was all this reason for optimism as we headed into the All Star Break and well beyond them.

And you aren't always going to get full seasons from anyone anyway. The pitching staff was pretty healthy for the most part.

Well, if you go by the axiomatic "don't check the standings until Memorial Day" the projected opening day-8 wouldn't even have made it that far.

I thought they were a flawed team. I don't think they're as bad as they played, I think some players were just not making sense (like Hanley's peripherals being greatly off his actual production) and I think others (LoMo) were counted on too much. I think that if the Marlins kept the Reyes/Ramirez/Stanton core with minor tweaking it's a winning product.

[Beef]

Context? The same shit we were talking about. The topic stayed the same. There were passages about saying a player would hopefully retire as a marlin and about telling a guy to buy a home and telling another that he would be here for the long term - that kind of lying.

If you think that doesn't happen all over sports, don't call my thinking ignorant.

If you do think that happens, don't call my thinking ignorant.

It was mad magnified here because the franchise has never been a model stable franchise and because this is what the Jeff Passans do. There's got to be a story.

[Swifty]

Telling a player you'd like to have him for his career when a contract is signed and trading him right before the walk year of his then negotiated deal is a lot different than telling a player that he's here for the long-term and then trading him after the first year of the then negotiated deal.

Those are not even remotely comparable.

[Ramp]

Hanley isn't very good anymore. He's part of no one's core.

[Beef]

Well lets unbold the Josh Johnson stuff and agree that teams ought to, and do, hold on to contracts that will be useless to them just because they told a guy months earlier that he would be around

[Swifty]

And let's just go ahead and change the issue.

"Holding onto a guy" is not the same as 'lying.'

[Beef]

Well no, it's not the same. That's what I said. Soooooo

[Omar]

Except it happens everywhere. People are lied to and buy homes and uproot their families all the time as a result. So the extremes on here that act as though it is so incredibly unfathomable just bothers me.

It sucks and its gross - but it's how people everywhere do things. At least these folks can better deal with it because of their salaries

There's a very large caveat that needs to go with this opinion. Bad businesses do this - not everyone. Businesses that know what they are doing have long-term visions, clear mission statements, and don't make a habit of outright lying to their employees.

The ones that do end up bankrupt or looking up at competition that has surpassed them.

[Beef]

I disagree with some of that and agree with some. You'll see plenty of businesses run by dirty pieces of crap that do this quite often. Many times the folks at the top continue to do quite well. I agree that they will often not be at the top of their food chain in their industry. It definitely lacks a long term vision, but its common. It's also generally important who they are doing "it" to and when. But those businesses at the top are also making crude moves that will eph over employees.

[Fish Tank Frenzy]

I have zero problem with the team trading most of these players and 'blowing' up the team. My problem is that due to their consistent practice of putting money ahead of talent, the Marlins did not get back Toronto's best prospects, because they insisted on Toronto paying the entire contracts as opposed to the Marlins assuming some of the financial burden. As well, it is clear they are not re-investing their financial savings into quality players. It is also clear to me that Beinfest has been Loria/Samson's puppet and that is the reason why he is still employed by the Marlins. Until Loria/Samson are gone from this organization it will also be run with one goal in mind and that goal does not coincide with that of the fans.

You know last season I bought $5,000 plus worth of tickets from the Marlins. I unfortunately suckered a couple of my buddies into splitting it with me. Mostly everyone told me, why are you spending that kind of money, they are just going to get rid of everyone. I would say, 'no way, they finally got their stadium, they are in it to win it', boy was I fucking wrong. I just laugh every time a Marlins rep calls me to renew or send me emails about renewing. What do they really expect?

[Omar]

I disagree with some of that and agree with some. You'll see plenty of businesses run by dirty pieces of crap that do this quite often. Many times the folks at the top continue to do quite well. I agree that they will often not be at the top of their food chain in their industry. It definitely lacks a long term vision, but its common. It's also generally important who they are doing "it" to and when. But those businesses at the top are also making crude moves that will eph over employees.

There is a major difference between a move to screw over employees like, say, cutting hours or making them come in on Saturday after saying they wouldn't and imploring a major employee to set down roots in a city and then shipping them off elsewhere. If an employee signed a formal employment contract based specifically on the promise that they wouldn't be moved to a satellite office in another country and subsequently were moved to that office, they would have an actionable claim.

A Fortune 500 company, which operates with the specter of public shareholders and media scrutiny over their earnings reports, can't afford to operate in the kind of environment we've seen the Marlins exist. They are very careful to tread lightly when it comes to making promises or figuring out long-term arrangements to avoid the very kind of negative publicity that is besetting Loria's men at the moment. In a major business (which is the only category a professional sports team can be properly compared to, as mom and pop shops and firms with a couple of stores don't face the same level of public relations), seeing things through to a logical purpose and doing your best to stick to what your projections and budgets called for is paramount towards building strong relationships with your shareholders and increasing the lifetime value you're getting out of customers.

Companies don't tell someone "buy a house" and then trade them for one of two very simple reasons:
1. The level of negative publicity that would beset them if a famous employee was mistreated would greatly affect sales of the firm OR
2. They would have known that day that this employee was being moved two days later and would have known better than to make the promise.

Major businesses also offer their shareholders and customers major accountability when their top level staff screw up. If there's a scandal, a strong company gets ahead of the problem and seeks to build public trust as much as possible. You're taught to be Tylenol, not Marlboro or any number of firms that failed their brand under pressure.

[emkayseven]

In fairness Tylenol is owned by Johnson and Johnson, shall we go into their legal troubles here?

[Beef]

I'm not talking cutting hours or making people come in Saturday.

I'm talking tell someone to buy a home and the change the nature of what the office does or fire someone shortly thereafter. I don't think those things would much publicity at all and I've seen it happen very often during audit work of public companies and legal work. Companies need work and generally aren't thinking of others. Just like we told mk7 to take a job and not tell them he'd be leaving in a few months, companies have the same mindset. Get what they need and keep their plans close to the vest. Otherwise it would be more difficult to get what they need.

I don't believe major companies tread lightly when making promises. They may tread that way when making public statements for fear of a fraud lawsuit, but they will tell employees all sorts of things to get them to move, stay, accept employment, etc.

I agree its not the best business model and some will so it more than others, eventually losing all/a lot of goodwill, but it happens often. Also, do we have anything that would suggest the marlins do this a whole lot compared to others?

This stuff came out because of the whole anger over fire sale thing. The josh Johnson stuff was something that happens all the time - I'd be surprised if anyone argued that. Good young player, you say you hope he retires after long career w the team. Guy couldn't stay healthy. Do you not trade him because you had a little puffery type comment? They told Buehrle they planned for him to be there long term. That's what you do when trying to sign someone. They may have even meant it - but the team sucked. The Reyes thing happens too and perhaps they weren't actively trying to trade him but threw him in the the deal so they wouldn't have to take d'Arnaud, ya know? Either way.

I guess the other big whopper is that they'd get a stadium and spend money. Ehe, that's a whopper. We'll see. They did say payroll would follow revenues and they are apparently not making money. Another potential whopper.