2023-2024 Offseason Thread

[Nick]

The only explanation is he loves money more than he loves winning. He’s found a way to squeak a profit, with absolutely no risk to him. Then he’ll make a huge profit on the sale in 5-10 years.

I just can’t imagine owning a team and not putting some capital into it to try and win at some point, but that’s what’s happened.

[lou]

the only saving grace is that bendix is being super transparent and realistic with the state of the farm system. We had a great farm a few years ago, the vast majority didnt pan out, and the "waves of talent" bullshit that jeter talked about never panned out, so now we have nothing in the pipeline, at least on the hitting side. I like that bendix is talking about that because it is absolutely what is needed for the long term stability of the organization, but there is 0 excuse to not be able to simultaneously build back the farm while also acting like a professional fucking organization coming off a playoff appearance for the first time in 20 full seasons.

And it's clearly not Bendix. It's all Sherman. In my opinion he is worse than loria. Loria was a fucking buffoon but at least he tried to win at times. He did so idiotically, but Sherman shows 0 inclination to do anything that it takes to win.

Which begs the question, why did this fucking guy buy this team? What is the point of buying a baseball team when you are going to operate it this way? I'm not saying you have to spend like the dodgers, but why buy a team for this much money with 0 ability or desire to spend any money?

I'd like to add to that, it's even easier to do what you suggest (i.e. operate at at MLB level while rebuilding the farm) because "the farm" isn't needed for years with the years of control at the MLB level.

Control Years

6+ Amaya, Maldonado, VMJR, D. Myers, Fulton, Cappe, Monteverde, Berry
6 Eury, Edwards, G. Soriano, and many other relievers
5-6 Max (depends on call up day)
5 Burger, Weathers, Nardi, Brujan, Hoeing, Brazoban
4 Bender, DLC, Fortes, Sanchez, Garrett, E. Cabrera
3-4 Sandy (includes this year)
3 Luzardo, Jazz, Puk, Rogers, Okert
2-3 Garica
2 Arraez, Berti, Bethancourt, Chargois
1 Scott, Bell

The bolds are 20 of 26 roster spots for 2025 are likely already there, and if they trade Luzardo or Arraez, that number goes up (I assume they get 2+ pieces MLB ready for each). Also doesn't include a variety of other guys who could make it. At minimum here, there are 7 SP candidates + Weathers and Puk if they do end up stretched out, and at least 4 starting position players with floor great role players with Berti, Fortes, and Edwards/Brujan/Other. So they'd need some bats. It's called free agency and could move one of those SP and replace with excess RP.

So that means, 18 of 26 roster spots are there for 2026, and again, likely goes up if Luzardo or Arraez are traded. They'd have less bat depth without Arrarz and Berti obviously, but every team has issues and they have two seasons to figure it out.


So big picture, yes it would be great if the farm could supply the half dozen guys they will need in each of the next two years, but they have trade assets (on top of the SP and I guess Arraez and Noble could turn into a haul, etc.) and money as some is available even on Bruce budgets. To me, the farm being bottom 5-10 in the league or whatever is wholly irrelevant. They have the more important part of this puzzle solved at the MLB level with outrageous cheap club control. It's very likely over 20 guys absent some real injuries moving forward. So draft heavy college guys in 2024/2025 who will likely trend to availability by summer 2026-2027. You have YEARS to figure this out on a farm level and signing guys like Cova in IFA will help that. So just get a bunch of guys on 1-3 year deals and you have your window with all of the pitchers which is more important than Arraez at the end of the day. The 2025 staff has top 1 upside in MLB if they keep it together. Don't cry about the farm system when this can be pumped out with legitimate bat building blocks with Arraez, Jazz, Burger, and Sanchez.

SP Sandy, Eury, Luzardo, Cabrera/Max, Garrett/Rogers
BULK Garrett/Rogers, Puk, Soriano, Fulton/Monteverde
RHP Cabrera/Max, Bender/Whoever, Chargois
LHP Nardi, Weathers

Not yelling at you, venting into the sky this ownership sucks so much. Loria is better. Loria would get there is this three year window with Luzardo, Jazz, Puk, and Rogers all in their last year in 2026, and maybe Sanchez/Garrett/Cabrera become too expensive at the same time so you can't keep it together past that. He'd go for it for three and burn it to the ground summer 2026 or winter 2026. Which is fine. At least you'd at least get 3 hyper competitive years. Sigh.

[Nick]

I'd like to add to that, it's even easier to do what you suggest (i.e. operate at at MLB level while rebuilding the farm) because "the farm" isn't needed for years with the years of control at the MLB level.

Control Years

6+ Amaya, Maldonado, VMJR, D. Myers, Fulton, Cappe, Monteverde, Berry
6 Eury, Edwards, G. Soriano, and many other relievers
5-6 Max (depends on call up day)
5 Burger, Weathers, Nardi, Brujan, Hoeing, Brazoban
4 Bender, DLC, Fortes, Sanchez, Garrett, E. Cabrera
3-4 Sandy (includes this year)
3 Luzardo, Jazz, Puk, Rogers, Okert
2-3 Garica
2 Arraez, Berti, Bethancourt, Chargois
1 Scott, Bell

The bolds are 20 of 26 roster spots for 2025 are likely already there, and if they trade Luzardo or Arraez, that number goes up (I assume they get 2+ pieces MLB ready for each). Also doesn't include a variety of other guys who could make it. At minimum here, there are 7 SP candidates + Weathers and Puk if they do end up stretched out, and at least 4 starting position players with floor great role players with Berti, Fortes, and Edwards/Brujan/Other. So they'd need some bats. It's called free agency and could move one of those SP and replace with excess RP.

So that means, 18 of 26 roster spots are there for 2026, and again, likely goes up if Luzardo or Arraez are traded. They'd have less bat depth without Arrarz and Berti obviously, but every team has issues and they have two seasons to figure it out.


So big picture, yes it would be great if the farm could supply the half dozen guys they will need in each of the next two years, but they have trade assets (on top of the SP and I guess Arraez and Noble could turn into a haul, etc.) and money as some is available even on Bruce budgets. To me, the farm being bottom 5-10 in the league or whatever is wholly irrelevant. They have the more important part of this puzzle solved at the MLB level with outrageous cheap club control. It's very likely over 20 guys absent some real injuries moving forward. So draft heavy college guys in 2024/2025 who will likely trend to availability by summer 2026-2027. You have YEARS to figure this out on a farm level and signing guys like Cova in IFA will help that. So just get a bunch of guys on 1-3 year deals and you have your window with all of the pitchers which is more important than Arraez at the end of the day. The 2025 staff has top 1 upside in MLB if they keep it together. Don't cry about the farm system when this can be pumped out with legitimate bat building blocks with Arraez, Jazz, Burger, and Sanchez.

SP Sandy, Eury, Luzardo, Cabrera/Max, Garrett/Rogers
BULK Garrett/Rogers, Puk, Soriano, Fulton/Monteverde
RHP Cabrera/Max, Bender/Whoever, Chargois
LHP Nardi, Weathers

Not yelling at you, venting into the sky this ownership sucks so much. Loria is better. Loria would get there is this three year window with Luzardo, Jazz, Puk, and Rogers all in their last year in 2026, and maybe Sanchez/Garrett/Cabrera become too expensive at the same time so you can't keep it together past that. He'd go for it for three and burn it to the ground summer 2026 or winter 2026. Which is fine. At least you'd at least get 3 hyper competitive years. Sigh.

I think you're giving Loria a little too much credit, he'd "spend money" as in sign somebody to a backloaded contract he has no intention of being responsible for when the big money actually comes due. And burn everything down at the first sign of what he's done not working out.

[lou]

I think you're giving Loria a little too much credit, he'd "spend money" as in sign somebody to a backloaded contract he has no intention of being responsible for when the big money actually comes due. And burn everything down at the first sign of what he's done not working out.

Which is more than Bruce will ever do. Unfortunately, we never got to see what Jeff was going to do with Fernandez but I bet he would have spent to try and create at least a 2 year window. Maybe Jordan Montgomery would be the next Chen and we'd lament it after the fact, but I think you gotta try to win baseball games eventually.


In other news, Jorge Polanco just got a top 100 prospect and throw-ins. The returns for guys like Luzardo and Arraez will be monstrous if that is the going rate. Monstrous.

[lou]

Here we go, Heyman is saying Marlins are sniffing at Adalberto Mondesi - https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status...53596975260079

2018 - 2.5 WAR (291 PA)
2019 - 2.5 WAR (443 PA)
2020-2023 - 2.4 WAR (423 PA)

He's of course been radically injured for 3 seasons, but he is 28. Why not. I'd prefer this to be a MiLB deal with big incentives and a plan B as he likely needs some time in AAA to get back to game speed, but at least this is a name with some hope attached in an effort to hit the lottery.

[fauowls44]

I'd take a shot on Mondesi on a MiLB deal, but he cannot be the plan at SS. You cannot count on him to be healthy. Bendix said they were looking for a SS who could also play 3rd. They should be looking at Rosario or Urshela. Both are likely available on 1 year deals. Sign one of them and also sign Mondesi as a lottery ticket.

[rmc523]

the only saving grace is that bendix is being super transparent and realistic with the state of the farm system. We had a great farm a few years ago, the vast majority didnt pan out, and the "waves of talent" bullshit that jeter talked about never panned out, so now we have nothing in the pipeline, at least on the hitting side. I like that bendix is talking about that because it is absolutely what is needed for the long term stability of the organization, but there is 0 excuse to not be able to simultaneously build back the farm while also acting like a professional fucking organization coming off a playoff appearance for the first time in 20 full seasons.

And it's clearly not Bendix. It's all Sherman. In my opinion he is worse than loria. Loria was a fucking buffoon but at least he tried to win at times. He did so idiotically, but Sherman shows 0 inclination to do anything that it takes to win.

Which begs the question, why did this fucking guy buy this team? What is the point of buying a baseball team when you are going to operate it this way? I'm not saying you have to spend like the dodgers, but why buy a team for this much money with 0 ability or desire to spend any money?

Yeah we can simultaneously rebuild the farm while also adding to the ML team via other methods if you’d just spend a bit of money. 100M or whatever we’re at now was a decent amount (and well beyond our normal spending figured) 10 years ago….now it’s at the bottom again.

[rmc523]

I'd take a shot on Mondesi on a MiLB deal, but he cannot be the plan at SS. You cannot count on him to be healthy. Bendix said they were looking for a SS who could also play 3rd. They should be looking at Rosario or Urshela. Both are likely available on 1 year deals. Sign one of them and also sign Mondesi as a lottery ticket.

It’d be a very marlins move to not only sign someone that can’t stay on the field, but to count on them as plan A-Y.

[rmc523]

The problem I have is that they’ve been preaching “sustainability” for 6 years since they got here. I bought into it the first time, as it does make sense as a good model. And I trusted that they’d follow through with the promise to spend when the time was right….nobody was ever expecting Yankee or Dodger level spending, but maybe league average? They made the playoffs. The time is NOW. If not now, when is a better time? I don’t understand.

the only “sustainability” I see is the funds going to Bruce’s bank account.

In a vacuum, it’s a good plan if you’re able to follow through with moves to get you there. But I’m reality we can’t look at it that way - instead it’s the 857th iteration of “sustainable”…..and we have yet to see any sustainability or promised spending why should we believe this time will be different?

im over it.

[fish16]

mondesi is going to absolutely carry this team the first 4 games of spring training before he suffers a season ending injury

[lou]

The problem I have is that they’ve been preaching “sustainability” for 6 years since they got here. I bought into it the first time, as it does make sense as a good model. And I trusted that they’d follow through with the promise to spend when the time was right….nobody was ever expecting Yankee or Dodger level spending, but maybe league average? They made the playoffs. The time is NOW. If not now, when is a better time? I don’t understand.

the only “sustainability” I see is the funds going to Bruce’s bank account.

In a vacuum, it’s a good plan if you’re able to follow through with moves to get you there. But I’m reality we can’t look at it that way - instead it’s the 857th iteration of “sustainable”…..and we have yet to see any sustainability or promised spending why should we believe this time will be different?

im over it.

Next year, and ask me this question again right around Thanksgiving

[lou]

I'd take a shot on Mondesi on a MiLB deal, but he cannot be the plan at SS. You cannot count on him to be healthy. Bendix said they were looking for a SS who could also play 3rd. They should be looking at Rosario or Urshela. Both are likely available on 1 year deals. Sign one of them and also sign Mondesi as a lottery ticket.

I think Rosario and Mondesi is a good plan if we're solely looking at cheap options.


I think another might be being creative with Bell maybe. I saw the Twins are looking for a 1B upgrade after saving some money with Polanco deal... if the Marlins traded Bell, Okert (they could use a lefty reliever IMO), plus $5m bucks to Minn. for Kyle Farmer (and maybe low A ball throw-ins) straight up, including their cost savings with Polanco, Twins payroll only goes up $6-7m for the combo of Bell and Okert (plus DeScalfani, a right reliever from Seattle, and the top 100 prospect), and the Marlins payroll actually goes down $7m which is the secondary incentive here. Twins can't get a bat as good as Bell for this minor payroll increase which is their incentive.

If they then gave Rosario say 1/$10 to play 2B, Duvall 1/$8 for LF, and Lorenzen 1/$10 for the rotation, they could be sitting on this for around $110m, i.e. last year's commitment:

Bethancourt, Fortes
Arraez
Rosario, Edwards
Berti, Farmer
Burger, Brujan
Duvall, DLC
Jazz
Sanchez

Luzardo, Eury, Garrett, Lorenzen, Rogers, Cabrera
Scott, Puk, Nardi, Weathers
Chargois, Brazoban, Soriano (w/ Max and Bender coming post rehab assignments)


I too would like a bigger oomph bat and a more premium RHP starter or reliever, but what can you do with this budget and Sandy, Garcia, Barnes, and Cueto making $25m of that $110m here?

[fish16]

rosario is a god awful SS. If we're trying to buy low just go get Tim anderson on a 1-2 year deal and see if he can bounce back. The guy was a star for multiple years. See if you can rejuvenate him. Him and Mondesi wouldnt be the worst options as a tandem for this offseason. Obviously super low floor but also a super high ceiling for those 2 if things somehow go right.

[rmc523]

Next year, and ask me this question again right around Thanksgiving

They don’t seem to understand you can build over a multi year period and add some here and there every year so that you’re not having to redo half the lineup in a single offseason

[lou]

They don’t seem to understand you can build over a multi year period and add some here and there every year so that you’re not having to redo half the lineup in a single offseason

Or you sign all these 1 year guys - Tim, Rosario, Lorenzen, M. Fulmer for the bullpen, whoever - and then trade them at the deadline. Which is what the Mets and Royals are doing acquiring all these random guys they'll recoup 1-2 FV45/FV40 prospects for and in essence be buying those prospects for $1-5m outright which is smart business. They aren't even good at being cheap or crafty. But I guess they have till spring training to wow us.

I generally have low expectations, but to have such a nothing offseason after the playoff appearance is a mind blowing lost marketing opportunity. If they signed 1 mid-tier guy and then extended Arraez, Luzardo, and Eury, I generally think we'd be all pumped up at this exact moment that they are operating as a real franchise. Those are also lay up moves.

But let's hear about this smart recruiting coordinator for the 70th-79th longitude they'll sign next.