2023-2024 Offseason Thread

[lou]

“Marlins ownership stinks” is a totally valid reason for people to not attend games.

But I hear (quite often) all of those other reasons listed above as to why no one goes to games.

I'd ask, what were ticket prices on top of that? Because that is all I got here. (And yes, I know the answer is going to be Marlins tickets are cheap AF and these were at the same level or comparable so it's not a reason.)

Maybe this is also a suggestion that when the team looks at free agent/extension candidates, guys like Eury (Dominican) and Jazz (Bahamian) should be extra priorities for marketing purposes (kind of how we discussed why Correa (Puerto Rican) makes so much sense before the Twins deal). The obvious point being, local national pride driving interest so if the team can grab players, preferably Cuban or Puerto Rican but really anywhere in the Caribbean, maybe that would help with local interest versus signing someone like Jordan "South Carolina" Montgomery. Just want to footnote here, Adames is Dominican.

[rmc523]

A Marlins content Twitter account I normally find slightly annoying posted this in reference to the Carribean Series games played at loan depot the last 2 weeks which drew tons of fans and he’s spot on *

”How was this possible with all the traffic issues, no parking, expensive beers, stadium located in hell, no one wearing teal, AAA talent on the field, unsociable start time, better things to be doing on a Friday?”


*fish16 will rage at this post

All of those are still issues. But people would/will overlook and put up with those issues if the team was winning. The team has been terrible and follow up our postseason appearance with nothing. Why should people put up with those things if the team itself doesn’t care?

[rmc523]

I'd ask, what were ticket prices on top of that? Because that is all I got here. (And yes, I know the answer is going to be Marlins tickets are cheap AF and these were at the same level or comparable so it's not a reason.)

Maybe this is also a suggestion that when the team looks at free agent/extension candidates, guys like Eury (Dominican) and Jazz (Bahamian) should be extra priorities for marketing purposes (kind of how we discussed why Correa (Puerto Rican) makes so much sense before the Twins deal). The obvious point being, local national pride driving interest so if the team can grab players, preferably Cuban or Puerto Rican but really anywhere in the Caribbean, maybe that would help with local interest versus signing someone like Jordan "South Carolina" Montgomery. Just want to footnote here, Adames is Dominican.

I will always think the argument of sign Cuban, Venezuelan etc players is vastly overrated as a marketing approach.

[Nick]

I will always think the argument of sign Cuban, Venezuelan etc players is vastly overrated as a marketing approach.

I agree, Luzardo is Venezuelan, from South Florida and grew up a Marlins fan.

No one cares.

[lou]

I agree, Luzardo is Venezuelan, from South Florida and grew up a Marlins fan.

No one cares.

But is it no one cares because ownership doesn’t do anything, and make 4/5 significant moves of all Hispanic guys and that is better than a bunch of Montgomerys and Garrett’s for local marketing.

[Namaste]

Welcome to Miami, Nick Gordon. Okert got launched.

[lou]

Trading Okert for N. Gordon it looks like. A good tools gamble for sure. He can hit right handers a little and play 2B on top of the OF. They save $300k here too for daddy Bruce.

I wonder if Edwards is getting dangled. If the idea is Arraez for this year and then trade him, they’d have Berti, Brujan, Gordon, Amaya, and maybe Cappe for next year which isn’t exactly a bad succession plan if they won’t pay Arraez.

This is interesting. Guess we’ll see what is next.

[lou]

Or Berti (saves $3.25+ million). That probably makes more sense to move if they get a dedicated SS starter

[fish16]

Good trade. Okert sucked

[fauowls44]

Don’t mind taking a shot on Gordon’s talent for the price, but I don’t really see a natural fit on the roster at the moment. He almost certainly won’t be an option at SS given how little he’s played there…but then again Jazz hadn’t played CF at all before last season so I guess we can’t rule that out. Perhaps a Berti/Gordon SS platoon could be something.

They still definitely need to add another bat. I’d prefer they circle back to Soler at this point, but given how they’ve been linked to Urshela recently, maybe they go with him and Bell/Burger/Arraez split the DH duties.

[fish16]

I’d be cool signing Anderson, letting Gordon take over Bertis role, and then dealing berti for a righty good controllable bullpen arm

[lou]

Don’t mind taking a shot on Gordon’s talent for the price, but I don’t really see a natural fit on the roster at the moment. He almost certainly won’t be an option at SS given how little he’s played there…but then again Jazz hadn’t played CF at all before last season so I guess we can’t rule that out. Perhaps a Berti/Gordon SS platoon could be something.

They still definitely need to add another bat. I’d prefer they circle back to Soler at this point, but given how they’ve been linked to Urshela recently, maybe they go with him and Bell/Burger/Arraez split the DH duties.

I think there is a fit here as they did need an outfielder with some control (I don't think he's an IF option except spot duty at 2B). I'd say the only lack of fit is, he's not right handed and likely not a plus defensive player, but that's kind of related to what DLC and Garcia "bring" right now and if both work out or they get better right handed outfielders (which can be Edwards and Brujan TBH) they'll be fine. The predominant RHP OF of Gordon-Jazz-Sanchez may be pretty fun quickly. Big picture, him likely predominantly getting LF against right handers isn't a bad thing. I like them taking prospect pedigree/athlete bets on Gordon and Brujan and if they suck, they can swap out to Dane, Amaya, Bride, and maybe Mesa Jr. this summer after they marinate a little more. That's a good (cheap) idea that likely doesn't kill them if they stink for the bench.

They have too many defensive slugs IMO (Bell, Burger, Arraez, and DLC, and potentially Gordon in LF and Edwards in general, at a minimum) to look at Soler, but I think Urshela makes a ton of sense to get 100 starts at 3B and they can plop Rosario on top of this to play 60+ games at SS (Berti the rest) and a bunch at 2B (with Arraez moving to 1B a lot). Anderson works here too. I think at this point we just need to consider Berti a 90+ game starter at SS and he "doesn't" move around much and let him play most of his time at SS, and then while a lacking defensive option, you can live with 60+ games of Rosario at SS and Berti can pop in 8th/9th inning for defense as needed. Plus maybe Brujan surprises defensively (and offensively), or Amaya becomes a dedicated bench piece later in the season.

Something like this in a Urshela + Rosario/Anderson hypothetical:

C Fortes, Bethancourt
1B Burger (Arraez)
2B Arraez (Rosario/Anderson)
SS Berti, Rosario/Anderson
3B Urshela, Brujan (Berti)
LF Gordon, DLC/Edwards
CF Jazz (Brujan, DLC/Edwards)
OF Sanchez (Brujan, DLC/Edwards)
DH Bell (Burger, Jazz)

-Garcia DFA'd
-DLC and Edwards are fighting for the last spot and the other optioned to AAA. Which is fine, someone is going to get hurt and they are next man up and can reshuffle with all the positional versatility
-Huge defensive benefit getting Burger off 3B, Bell off 1B, and starting to shave Arraez off 2B. Only negative is potentially lackluster Rosario defense at SS sometimes and weird backup OF defense but that might be OK enough, but maybe the uptick at C, 1B, 2B, and 3B more than offset that.

I think the "start" distribution in pencil is something like:

C - Fortes (81), Bethancourt (81)
1B - Burger (112), Arraez (50)
2B - Arraez (90), Rosario/Anderson (60), Brujan (12)
SS - Berti (92), Rosario/Anderson (70)
3B - Urshela (100), Brujan (42), Berti (20)
LF - Gordon (100), DLC/Edwards (62)
CF - Jazz (120), Brujan (21), DLC/Edwards (21)
RF - Sanchez (112), Brujan (21), DLC/Edwards (29)
DH - Bell (130), Burger (20), Jazz (12)

Starts
Arraez 140
Burger 132
Jazz 132
Bell 130
Rosario/Anderson 130
---
Berti 112
Sanchez 112
DLC/Edwards 112
Urshela 100
Gordon 100
---
Brujan 91
Fortes 81
Bethancourt 81


In the "cheap" world, I think this works. I know we like Edwards and want him to play, but I'm fine with the Gordon/Brujan upside picks and waiting on him until someone gets hurt as I presume they'd keep DLC here in this either/or. I think they'd all get time based on performance ultimately.

It's interesting here to note Gordon, Bethancourt, Urshela, and Rosario had a 8.5 combined WAR in 2022 in just under 2000 PA (spread out very equally too). They'd be looking combined 1700+ PA on the above (more if Bethancourt supplants Fortes more), and the Marlins would frankly be in major business if those guys played as a collective at their 2022 rates. No one is that old here. Interesting numbers here for sure.


So long story very long, I think Gordon fits but they have another move or two to do. I hope they wow us with Adames, but Gio + Rosario/Anderson totally works IMO and payroll is under 2023 levels. My only concern if they did that is, they still need 100+ innings coming from somewhere and I doubt papa Bruce would do Lorenzen on top of that, but if he did, that's ultimately a really solid cheap AF offseason and some credit will swing back fast to the FO and Namaste gets his victory lap.

[Namaste]

Soler to the Giants 3 years/$42 million

[fish16]

I’m ok not re-signing soler if we spend money on a short stop. Paying him 14 million per year until he is 36 is a dumb idea. he's not as good as he played last year and not as bad as he was 2 years ago. he also has no defensive value. we can make up that production in the aggregate.

[Nick]

That's a fair deal for Soler IMO. Not offering him the 1 year/$20 million and getting the pick if he rejected kinda cemented the fact that Sherman is just never going to spend for me. What we've seen is what we'll get from him going forward. He wasn't saving money to go all in when the time was right he's just cheap and that's it.