2022-2023 Offseason Thread

[fish16]

Yes they suck - that is our north star.

The deal is Arizona. Four centerfielders, all left handed, need pitching. No team in baseball should win that against the Marlins based on their immediate and longterm need AND having many options on arms.

and yet nothing still. they deserve less and less benefit of the doubt by the day. at this point they get 0 benefit of the doubt that they will do anything of actual significance to win next year, and yet they will trot out kim and sherman in spring and say they were just really expecting garcia and Soler to turn it around when in reality they just dont want to spend money.

[Namaste]

As opposed to Brandon Drury who isnt a very good.

He was very good in 2022 but, yes, he does not have the proven track record like J Turner. But these are also 2 players that can be headed in opposite directions moving forward.

[fish16]

He was very good in 2022 but, yes, he does not have the proven track record like J Turner. But these are also 2 players that can be headed in opposite directions moving forward.

its possible, but turner got better as the year went on last year after a slow start after the lock out and drury got worse after being traded from the best hitting park in baseball to possibly the worst. Not something that is indicative of age related progression/decline. Turner after the all star break hit .319, .882 OPS, with a stupid low K rate and Drury in the second half hit .239, sub .300 OBP, .737 OPS, and his slugging percentage tumbled leaving Cincy despite joining a lineup with Bell, Soto, and machado. Drury is the epitome of a guy who comes here and regresses. Strikes out a lot, very inconsistent career. Turner even if he has lost a step still gives leadership, great plate discipline, has power, has mashed in our ballpark against us, and i know average is not as valued as it used to be, but the guy just hits. His average by year since 2014- .340, .294, .275, .322, .312, .290, .307, .278, .278 (with a .319 average after the all star break as mentioned above). If we cant find a huge power bat, at the very least we can improve in the making contact department as a team with the 28th best average in the league last year and the 27th best OBP.

It's a completely fair point, but turner is the obvious better fit for us and what we need.

I know me and Lou have beaten this to a pulp and we disagree, which is fine, but if you add him and Arrarez (fuck it move jazz to SS), the lineup isnt powerful but it might be the best way to compete in a ballpark that has clearly impacted how we should build a lineup with how it suppresses hitters who come here. It's not going to happen, but just as a hypothetical:

C- Fortes
1b- Cooper/Turner
2b- Arraez
SS-Jazz
3b- Turner/Wendle
LF- Bleday/Sanchez
CF- who fucking knows
RF- Garcia
DH- Soler

It's not great, but i doubt it would be anywhere near as frustrating to watch as what we have had. That's a lineup with a lot of guys who at least make contact a lot more often.

[lou]

its possible, but turner got better as the year went on last year after a slow start after the lock out and drury got worse after being traded from the best hitting park in baseball to possibly the worst. Not something that is indicative of age related progression/decline. Turner after the all star break hit .319, .882 OPS, with a stupid low K rate and Drury in the second half hit .239, sub .300 OBP, .737 OPS, and his slugging percentage tumbled leaving Cincy despite joining a lineup with Bell, Soto, and machado. Drury is the epitome of a guy who comes here and regresses. Strikes out a lot, very inconsistent career. Turner even if he has lost a step still gives leadership, great plate discipline, has power, has mashed in our ballpark against us, and i know average is not as valued as it used to be, but the guy just hits. His average by year since 2014- .340, .294, .275, .322, .312, .290, .307, .278, .278 (with a .319 average after the all star break as mentioned above). If we cant find a huge power bat, at the very least we can improve in the making contact department as a team with the 28th best average in the league last year and the 27th best OBP.

It's a completely fair point, but turner is the obvious better fit for us and what we need.

I know me and Lou have beaten this to a pulp and we disagree, which is fine, but if you add him and Arrarez (fuck it move jazz to SS), the lineup isnt powerful but it might be the best way to compete in a ballpark that has clearly impacted how we should build a lineup with how it suppresses hitters who come here. It's not going to happen, but just as a hypothetical:

C- Fortes
1b- Cooper/Turner
2b- Arraez
SS-Jazz
3b- Turner/Wendle
LF- Bleday/Sanchez
CF- who fucking knows
RF- Garcia
DH- Soler

It's not great, but i doubt it would be anywhere near as frustrating to watch as what we have had. That's a lineup with a lot of guys who at least make contact a lot more often.

Michael Taylor would be a cheap CF option via trade and they could do Taylor 100 / Sanchez 62 (all vs RHP) in CF. It's a band aid, but Arraez and Turner is something.

I'd also just trade for Rosario and not sign Turner here, keeping Jazz at 2B, and move Arraez to 3B 80+ games (60+ more at 2B and 1B). Let's get him 100 games off 1B - that's my position here. If he ends up there or LF/DH 1/3rd the time, so be it.

Also I have to keep stressing DLC has a set job in LF and his late season swing change produced interesting results. It's DLC/Sanchez and Bleday in AAA to quib here. Marlins love him. Statcast loves him. Even Fangraphs loves him. DLC is a legitimate breakout candidate into a solid 2+ WAR starter kind of guy and that is mind blowing with how bad he was to start his career. We can hope anyways.

[lou]

and yet nothing still. they deserve less and less benefit of the doubt by the day. at this point they get 0 benefit of the doubt that they will do anything of actual significance to win next year, and yet they will trot out kim and sherman in spring and say they were just really expecting garcia and Soler to turn it around when in reality they just dont want to spend money.

They have a benefit of a doubt?

[fish16]

Michael Taylor would be a cheap CF option via trade and they could do Taylor 100 / Sanchez 62 (all vs RHP) in CF. It's a band aid, but Arraez and Turner is something.

I'd also just trade for Rosario and not sign Turner here, keeping Jazz at 2B, and move Arraez to 3B 80+ games (60+ more at 2B and 1B). Let's get him 100 games off 1B - that's my position here. If he ends up there or LF/DH 1/3rd the time, so be it.

Also I have to keep stressing DLC has a set job in LF and his late season swing change produced interesting results. It's DLC/Sanchez and Bleday in AAA to quib here. Marlins love him. Statcast loves him. Even Fangraphs loves him. DLC is a legitimate breakout candidate into a solid 2+ WAR starter kind of guy and that is mind blowing with how bad he was to start his career. We can hope anyways.

Im not big on DLC but i could live with a true platoon of him and Sanchez. Im still fairly high on sanchez at the very least as a righty masher long term so to me its about finding the good platoon partner with him. I think Burdick long term combined with him at one of the corner outfield positions is a really good mix with the other available off the bench nighly. Burdick is going to be a lefty masher, Sanchez hits righties really well. Unfortunately i think thats a year away or at the very least until july/august because Burdick needs more AAA time.

IDK how they get all 3 but how about trading for Arraez AND rosario and signing turner. Move cooper to spot starter at DH and bat off the bench due to his inability to stay healthy.

C- Fortes
1b- Arraez/Turner
2b- Jazz
SS- Rosario
3b- Arraez/Turner
LF-Soler
CF- Sanchez/DLC
RF- Garcia
DH- Cooper

SP- Sandy, Luzardo, Cabrera, Rogers, Garrett, with Eury probably making his ML debut sometime next year, and then whoever is left after the trades out of Fulton, Eder, Meyer, Miller, etc.

That would involve giving up pablo plus another trade for Rosario using guys like Fulton/maybe Eder, but we have enough pitching, that wouldnt cost a huge amount outside of pablo which sucks to give up but realistically he's the guy you deal. The total cost for that would be money for turner, pablo for one of those guys, and then minor league pitching for the other. They desperately need hitting, and i think you can take advantage of the guardians being fairly cheap, especially after signing bell to a big 2 year deal, and try to get them to move rosario for some upper minor leaguers as a way of saving money long term if they dont plan on signing him to an extension.

[fish16]

or screw the Rosario idea given his offensive numbers arent unbelievable, slot wendle (please god no more rojas) at SS for this year, sign turner, trade for Arraez, and then trade for Reynolds as well and say fuck the defense and just get the best bats you can and reevaluate next year. I dont like wendle but for a year at SS as an upcoming free agent i can live with it with the hope that he has a good year before becoming a free agent.

C- Fortes
1b- Arraez/Turner
2b- Jazz
SS- Wendle
3b- Arraez/Turner
LF- DLC/Sanchez
CF-Reynolds
RF- Garcia
DH- Soler/Cooper

Count me very out on Michael Taylor. The dude just isnt very good. Id rather see Sanchez or bleday out there getting some major league time than signing a retread like that. He's good in CF but he just is not and has never been a good hitter at all. 5 straight years of OPS between .644 and .676.

[lou]

or screw the Rosario idea given his offensive numbers arent unbelievable, slot wendle (please god no more rojas) at SS for this year, sign turner, trade for Arraez, and then trade for Reynolds as well and say fuck the defense and just get the best bats you can and reevaluate next year. I dont like wendle but for a year at SS as an upcoming free agent i can live with it with the hope that he has a good year before becoming a free agent.

C- Fortes
1b- Arraez/Turner
2b- Jazz
SS- Wendle
3b- Arraez/Turner
LF- DLC/Sanchez
CF-Reynolds
RF- Garcia
DH- Soler/Cooper

Count me very out on Michael Taylor. The dude just isnt very good. Id rather see Sanchez or bleday out there getting some major league time than signing a retread like that. He's good in CF but he just is not and has never been a good hitter at all. 5 straight years of OPS between .644 and .676.

Michael Taylor is good defensively and hits lefties enough. He'd be a good 100 game starter and let Sanchez (or Bleday) get 60 right handers so to speak. Defense does matter.


I think I'm done with some hypotheticals here as it's too maddening but the overall point is, they have a ton of trade assets and payroll at low levels and they are terrible if this isn't a good team on paper opening day. I think I'll be out if that happens and check back at the trade deadline TBH.

[fish16]

Michael Taylor is good defensively and hits lefties enough. He'd be a good 100 game starter and let Sanchez (or Bleday) get 60 right handers so to speak. Defense does matter.


I think I'm done with some hypotheticals here as it's too maddening but the overall point is, they have a ton of trade assets and payroll at low levels and they are terrible if this isn't a good team on paper opening day. I think I'll be out if that happens and check back at the trade deadline TBH.

for his career he is .722 OPS against lefties. .675 last year, .769 in 2021, .698 in Covid year, .778 in 2019. I could get behind it for very little money as just an option in CF, but i would really hate signing him if they expect him to start anywhere near 100 games. Unless they go balls to the wall acquiring infield hitting and get turner, rosario, arraez, etc.

[lou]

for his career he is .722 OPS against lefties. .675 last year, .769 in 2021, .698 in Covid year, .778 in 2019. I could get behind it for very little money as just an option in CF, but i would really hate signing him if they expect him to start anywhere near 100 games. Unless they go balls to the wall acquiring infield hitting and get turner, rosario, arraez, etc.

He's signed for $4.5m and you'd trade the Royals for him. It can't be expensive. This is also, he makes sense if they do massive pitching moves for other bats and he is a stopgap last piece (i.e. a 4th offensive upgrade). Arraez/Turner/Drury/Longoria, Jansen/B. Reynolds, and Correa/Swanson/Rosario/Peraza/Polanco? Then sure, he makes sense in that insane line of player acquisition that hasn't begun yet to be that final offensive piece. Other than that, god help us if that's the main move or two.

[Namaste]

Giants (owned by someone much wealthier than Bruce Sherman) sign Carlos Correa 13 years/$350 million

[Namaste]

The AAV was very doable for a position of DEEP need.

Can’t wait to hear about how we were “in” on Xander, Trea, Carlos and Dansby.

[Lee Stone]

Proposed Pablo trade: Lopez to Cards for O'Neill and Burleson. Exact match on value at the trades site. O'Neill has lots of upside and can play center. Burleson big lefty bat for 1B. Cards need starting pitching depth.

[fish16]

26 million is completely reasonable. Im done with this team. why root for a team who doesnt care about winning? If they dont sign him fine, but they werent even in on literally any of the star free agents despite one of the lowest payrolls in baseball.

[lou]

Proposed Pablo trade: Lopez to Cards for O'Neill and Burleson. Exact match on value at the trades site. O'Neill has lots of upside and can play center. Burleson big lefty bat for 1B. Cards need starting pitching depth.

I'd do this. They need radical changes to compete.


Marlins - Arraez, Jansen, Horowitz (a low-level 1B prospect from Blue Jays throw in)
Twins - Pablo, Rojas (who now makes more sense in a platoon since they don't have Correa), Scott/Okert/Bleier, Simpson/Nardi
Blue Jays - B. Garrett, Kepler

Twins need a big SP, LHP relievers, and Rojas deflects Arraez and sets up a good R/L platoon with Polanco, Farmer, and Gordon. Jays need a LF platoon and a young arm.

Cleveland - R. Laureano, Burdick
Miami - A. Rosario, X. Curry (backend SP prospect ready now from Cleveland)
Athletics - J. Miller, I. Lewis/Morisette, McCambley/Johnson/King, Palacious, Cleveland Comp. Balance Pick

Cleveland needs OF, Oakland is a tear down and big upside there for *just* Laureano, Curry becomes Marlins 6th SP/pen mix

Arizona - Meyer/Eder/Fulton, Salas/Cappe/Watson, N. Fortes, J. Mack/R. Hernandez, Soriano/Villalobos/etc.
Miami - A. Thomas, Mantiply, Canzone (a low-level 1Bish prospect, and a lefty which they have many of), Throw-In

It's a lot but CF depth is terrible. Arizona doesn't have catchers and the other guys speak for themselves. Mantiply helps pen right now.

Then...... Rodon 8/$200, three year opt out after 3/$87 and take the bet he opts out at 33 years old. This is the Jayson Werth signing.


So this team is an extremely reasonably $110m in 2023 and payroll is fine longterm as guys expire, or can be bought out:

C - Jansen, Stallings
1B - Cooper (Arraez)
2B - Jazz
SS - Rosario, Wendle
3B - Arraez, Berti
LF - DLC, Sanchez
CF - A. Thomas
RF - Garcia
DH - Soler
SP - Sandy, Rodon, Luzardo, Cabrera, Rogers
RHP - Floro, Chargois, Enright, Nance
LHP - Mantiply, Bleier, Okert, Castano

Remaining top prospects - Eury, Berry, two of Meyer/Eder/Fulton, two of Salas/Cappe/Watson, Groshans, Sixto, Edwards, Bleday, and some reasonable depth next 20 guys even if not elite.

Team is very very club controlled for a long long time and Jansen, Jazz, Rosario, Arraez, and Luzardo are buy-out candidates now, and Thomas, Cabrera, and Rogers might be next year. Huge cost savings/certainty potential here. This is all contingent of course that Arraez can play 3B but take that bet with Wendle/Berti around to help.


So let's wait for them to do nothing. It blows my mind they actually have the juice to do something like this as the only thing I'd critique above is maybe Oakland needs a little more, and the Marlins could throw in ANOTHER comp balance pick there if needed and who cares if Rosario is resigned for 5 years, etc.