2022-2023 Offseason Thread

[rmc523]

Alcantara to Atlanta for Acuna Jr and Albies
All A's for this one!

Do you just have a wheel with players names on them and start spinning for these trade scenarios you come up with?

[sports24/7]

Cartaya could be an All Star catcher and ready to start this season. Pages plays CF AND has a big bat. Given the severe lack of overall hitting, a CF with pop is important. Busch brings a great bat at 2B and allows Jazz to move to SS. Vargas could be an option at 3B.

Statistically it’s more likely that both Cartaya and Pages never become more than replacement level players, and even that they flame out, than it is that Cartaya is an All-Star and Pages becomes a big bat. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have both players. But you don’t trade a pitcher like Sandy on his deal, at his age, for a prospect-led package.

[Lee Stone]

Statistically it’s more likely that both Cartaya and Pages never become more than replacement level players, and even that they flame out, than it is that Cartaya is an All-Star and Pages becomes a big bat. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have both players. But you don’t trade a pitcher like Sandy on his deal, at his age, for a prospect-led package.

I don't think the Marlins are just a player or two away from contending. Cartaya, Busch, Vargas and Pages are all top 100 prospects and the first three are in the top 50 or so. The Dodgers have many other hitters that would play nicely in Miami. Alcantara is the one trade piece that could get the Marlins well and he's at peak value.

[lou]

I don't think the Marlins are just a player or two away from contending. Cartaya, Busch, Vargas and Pages are all top 100 prospects and the first three are in the top 50 or so. The Dodgers have many other hitters that would play nicely in Miami. Alcantara is the one trade piece that could get the Marlins well and he's at peak value.

Lee that trade sucks. Beyond belief. The only people who would like it are Dodgers fans. Also, every player isn't at peak value just because the sun rises tomorrow. The Marlins are certainly more than one or two players away, but think about that. Trading Sandy creates probably a 2-3 player vacuum so what have you done?

They are going to have 20-22 guys for the roster around $65-75m next year. Median payroll is over double that. If they get a stopgap SP, they have a younger and more valuable one to trade. They also have three premium middle infielders they can trade (Salas, Cappe, Watson), along with lots of stopgap veteran types to help out the bullpen. They have SO MANY options here, why are you immediately going to the dead bottom of the list and doing the literal most desperate move one can make? Trading Sandy means you also trade Pablo, Jazz, every veteran in arbitration except for Luzardo, and circle 2025. Enough is enough. This is idiotic.

Also I'm at a loss how a MARLINS fan, who suffered through Cabrera's and Yelich's mismanagement, is gung-ho about making the same mistake again. And then pitching worse deals than those. Just unreal.

[Namaste]

Not to mention it would be a legendary PR nightmare (even for the Marlins).

[sports24/7]

I don't think the Marlins are just a player or two away from contending. Cartaya, Busch, Vargas and Pages are all top 100 prospects and the first three are in the top 50 or so. The Dodgers have many other hitters that would play nicely in Miami. Alcantara is the one trade piece that could get the Marlins well and he's at peak value.

The Marlins aren't just a player or two away, but have more than enough ammo elsewhere to add more than a player or two. Being in the top 100 is nice, but far from a guarantee. And the truth is it's more likely than not that prospects never amount to much top 100, or not. So while in a perfect world, you net multiple high level players that can be the foundation of a contending team, the far more likely outcome is that Alcantara is by far the best player in the deal, and maybe you end up with one impact bat, or a couple of solid regulars, but you're worse off in the long run. If there's any fanbase that should know this better than anyone else, it should be this one.

[lou]

Oh man I typed this whole post about Edwin Diaz's contract and bruce is cheap but the cut/paste killed it.

TLDR - He is being deferred to 2041over $26m and Bruce needs to take from the playbook and sign some guys and defer if that's the going rate.

[fish16]

sandy is untouchable. he's too good and too cheap to make dealing him for even a ridiculous haul of hitting prospects worth it. they have the guy they can use to rebuild the hitting base of the organization in addition to spending a little money on some hitters- pablo. 2 years left, they wont re-sign him, coming off a healthy season for the first time, plenty of depth behind him long term. Get 2 hitters for him that you can pencil in next year that are either just reaching the majors or in AAA, then sign a big time SS like Correa and you have a complete team with a cheap bullpen signing or 2. That's the move the rays would do and have done numerous times over the years. Rely on the pitching depth you have spent years building and deal a guy at the height of his value they wont re-sign in 2 years.

Give the blue jays pablo and fillers for teoscar hernandez and gabriel moreno. Combine that with Correa and you have a good lineup and great rotation long term even if you have a year where you need to find 1 innings eater. Moreno is a phenomenal prospect but they have Kirk who was unbelievable last year as well as Danny Jansen so they could use him to improve their rotation depth.

C- Moreno/Fortes
1b- Cooper
2b- Jazz
SS- Correa
3b- Anderson/Wendle
LF- Sanchez/Bleday whoever plays well in the spring gets first opportunity or find a platoon with a righty for each
CF- Hernandez
RF- Garcia who i think will have a decent bounce back year after coming into spring out of shape
DH- Soler

SP- Sandy, Luzardo, Cabrera, Garrett, Rogers with Eury and fulton on the way in 2024

That's a much improved lineup. Will it happen? Almost assuredly not because Bruce refuses to spend. But to act like this team is years away from contention is wrong. They have the pieces, they just need an owner willing to open the wallet for an offseason combined with a major trade for pablo. I also think Soler and Garcia have been volatile enough in their career, especially Garcia, to where i could easily see them being productive pieces next year.

[Lee Stone]

Pablo will not fetch Moreno and Hernandez, let alone Moreno alone. The simple reason to trade Alcantara is that we need a 3B, SS/2B, 1B, C and an OF. Only he can garner 2023 starters at all or most of those positions, all of which would "possibly" improve those positions. Vargas, Busch, Cartaya and Pages from the Dodgers seem like reasonable bets for most of that and the Dodgers would love to have Sandy in their stable.

I have faith in improvement from Lopez, Rogers, Luzardo, Garrett and Cabrera and a quick blossoming for Perez, Eder, or both.

[fish16]

Pablo will not fetch Moreno and Hernandez.

hence why i said pablo + others. Whether its Salas, Cappe, Fulton, Watson, etc, they have more than enough in the system to make that deal work. Hernandez is a free agent to be after next year. He's a 1 year quality rental. He's also a corner OF and not great in center so his value is not as high as the phenomenal hitting stats would signify. He would be a play as a great hitter with sub par defense in the OF that we get to improve the offense at the expense of sub par defense, which im fine with because we need offense.

[lou]

Pablo will not fetch Moreno and Hernandez, let alone Moreno alone. The simple reason to trade Alcantara is that we need a 3B, SS/2B, 1B, C and an OF. Only he can garner 2023 starters at all or most of those positions, all of which would "possibly" improve those positions. Vargas, Busch, Cartaya and Pages from the Dodgers seem like reasonable bets for most of that and the Dodgers would love to have Sandy in their stable.

I have faith in improvement from Lopez, Rogers, Luzardo, Garrett and Cabrera and a quick blossoming for Perez, Eder, or both.

They don't need a 3B with a Wendle/Berti - Groshans/Leblanc - Berry (maybe?) - Salas/Cappe pipeline.

They do need a SS

Not a 2B. They have a top 5 2B in baseball for at least 4 years and Salas/Cappe/Watson/Lewis/Morisette pipeline as all of them may not back it at SS.

They don't need a 1B with Cooper for a year, and then Berry is presumably the heir apparent. He likely doesn't move to DH for a bit. Plus, a cheap vet here probably isn't killer if they need a 1 year guy. This would be a luxury upgrade (think Rizzo), not a trade target.

They don't need a C with Fortes and Stallings who easily project as league average with upside for more. They could use an upper minors catcher unless we don't like Banfield and Mcintosh. I'd say a AAAA depth catcher for this year. This one also falls into a luxury upgrade. I'd love Jansen, but this is fine.

They need a CF. Obviously.

LF they owe it to themselves to try out the four (DLC/Burdick and Sanchez/Bleday) as they could be cheap and effective and have 40 man space.

Garcia's contract is going nowhere for RF. And see above.



So they need a SS and a CF Lee, and amazingly your Dodgers trade for Sandy does not include either. Pages doesn't count as only a short term CF option. This trade is *awful* Lee. However if your pitch is the team will fall apart without Sandy so Pablo then turns into the CF, Jazz into more pitching, and everyone else into relievers. OK. Are you ready for the firesale and circling 2026 to move goal posts again? If not, stop trying to make fetch happen.

[lou]

sandy is untouchable. he's too good and too cheap to make dealing him for even a ridiculous haul of hitting prospects worth it. they have the guy they can use to rebuild the hitting base of the organization in addition to spending a little money on some hitters- pablo. 2 years left, they wont re-sign him, coming off a healthy season for the first time, plenty of depth behind him long term. Get 2 hitters for him that you can pencil in next year that are either just reaching the majors or in AAA, then sign a big time SS like Correa and you have a complete team with a cheap bullpen signing or 2. That's the move the rays would do and have done numerous times over the years. Rely on the pitching depth you have spent years building and deal a guy at the height of his value they wont re-sign in 2 years.

Give the blue jays pablo and fillers for teoscar hernandez and gabriel moreno. Combine that with Correa and you have a good lineup and great rotation long term even if you have a year where you need to find 1 innings eater. Moreno is a phenomenal prospect but they have Kirk who was unbelievable last year as well as Danny Jansen so they could use him to improve their rotation depth.

C- Moreno/Fortes
1b- Cooper
2b- Jazz
SS- Correa
3b- Anderson/Wendle
LF- Sanchez/Bleday whoever plays well in the spring gets first opportunity or find a platoon with a righty for each
CF- Hernandez
RF- Garcia who i think will have a decent bounce back year after coming into spring out of shape
DH- Soler

SP- Sandy, Luzardo, Cabrera, Garrett, Rogers with Eury and fulton on the way in 2024

That's a much improved lineup. Will it happen? Almost assuredly not because Bruce refuses to spend. But to act like this team is years away from contention is wrong. They have the pieces, they just need an owner willing to open the wallet for an offseason combined with a major trade for pablo. I also think Soler and Garcia have been volatile enough in their career, especially Garcia, to where i could easily see them being productive pieces next year.

Hernandez isn't a CF option like you noted. They aren't trading Moreno. They are going to trade Danny Jansen. Anderson can be DFA'd and SS backup (Wendle Or Rojas, other traded), Berti, and Groshans can "easily" handle 3B. No need for BA here for that money. Rinse repeat, that team needs another SP for 2023 but pencil in whoever you want to sign there.

This is not a good idea besides selling out for Correa and trading the whatevers for relievers.

But you can tweak this and get a SP to Arizona for Thomas or McCarthy, just keep Stallings as he is totally fine, and use remaining payroll for arms to replace Pablo. Also, DLC clearly is the other side of J. Sanchez for a LF/backup CF platoon right now.

Also I want to point out robo umpires may be coming sooner than we think and that is going to downgrade pitch framers. So yes, we do want guys who can hit, but it hasn't happened yet. It's going to be a brave new world of catcher evaluation, so I'd hold firm here unless it is very opportunistic move (i.e., those Blue Jays guys won't be cheap). The Marlins minor league C depth is pretty OK and they have a great organizational track record of development (Barnes, Nola, Realmuto, Fortes). I'd let Fortes and Stallings play it out and devote resources SS/CF/shoring up pitching/if anything remains a 1B upgrade.

[Nick]

They don't need a 3B with a Wendle/Berti - Groshans/Leblanc - Berry (maybe?) - Salas/Cappe pipeline.

They do need a SS

Not a 2B. They have a top 5 2B in baseball for at least 4 years and Salas/Cappe/Watson/Lewis/Morisette pipeline as all of them may not back it at SS.

They don't need a 1B with Cooper for a year, and then Berry is presumably the heir apparent. He likely doesn't move to DH for a bit. Plus, a cheap vet here probably isn't killer if they need a 1 year guy. This would be a luxury upgrade (think Rizzo), not a trade target.

They don't need a C with Fortes and Stallings who easily project as league average with upside for more. They could use an upper minors catcher unless we don't like Banfield and Mcintosh. I'd say a AAAA depth catcher for this year. This one also falls into a luxury upgrade. I'd love Jansen, but this is fine.

They need a CF. Obviously.

LF they owe it to themselves to try out the four (DLC/Burdick and Sanchez/Bleday) as they could be cheap and effective and have 40 man space.

Garcia's contract is going nowhere for RF. And see above.



So they need a SS and a CF Lee, and amazingly your Dodgers trade for Sandy does not include either. Pages doesn't count as only a short term CF option. This trade is *awful* Lee. However if your pitch is the team will fall apart without Sandy so Pablo then turns into the CF, Jazz into more pitching, and everyone else into relievers. OK. Are you ready for the firesale and circling 2026 to move goal posts again? If not, stop trying to make fetch happen.

They don't need a 1B because of Garrett Cooper? Because of his 9 HRs and .752 OPS last year?

LF they need to try out the 4? Isn't that what they did last year?

Lee's wrong about trading Sandy, but he's not wrong about needing 3-4 maybe even 5 upgrades in the lineup to even get to a respectable level.

[Lee Stone]

For the record, I see Groshans as having zero chance of being an adequate 3B. Pages has been playing CF and doing an adequate job defensively.

The reason to trade Alcantara is because the return for him can actually rebuild the team.

[lou]

They don't need a 1B because of Garrett Cooper? Because of his 9 HRs and .752 OPS last year?

LF they need to try out the 4? Isn't that what they did last year?

Lee's wrong about trading Sandy, but he's not wrong about needing 3-4 maybe even 5 upgrades in the lineup to even get to a respectable level.

I think he is wrong. And it's because projection and payroll count, as well as what is coming up in the pipeline. An organization with limited means can't be luxurious and just turn over 2/3rds the roster.


Cooper is fine for $4m. It's going to be hard to do better for that amount. It would be a luxury upgrade. Frankly, they should move Soler and make him a 100 game DH / 40 game 1B. Soler is the problem here not Cooper.

Yes, DLC showed some real promise with a swing tweak, as well as there is plenty of upside with Sanchez, Bleday, and Burdick. They combined cost the minimum and a real R/L platoon split could be emerging here. This isn't a terrible situation on paper for the price.


They need a SS and CF. If they have more resources, upgrade Cooper. If they have even more resources somehow, we can start fantasizing about improving on Fortes, Berti/Groshans, and LF platoon (pick your least favorite). Which they don't need to do as those position groups may cost $3.5, $3.5, and $1.5 million for 6 total players and that's a deal for $8.5m. You can easily see 5-6+ WAR.