2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[fish16]

The Marlins do not have enough pitching for 2023 if they trade Pablo. Full stop right here.

I've already mentioned the *major* innings limitations of really every SP besides Sandy, Pablo, and Rogers, and the later may have performance issues where he likely isn't throwing 160 innings. Cabrera is going to max out around 125 innings, and Luzardo/Garret (max effort pitch mix arms) likely don't break 150. Eury likely also doesn't throw much more than 125 IP next year, and half of that if not more is going to be in the minors. Eder and Sixto are huge question marks. Meyer AND Poteet AND Bender are all out for 2023 now also. Hernandez has proven to totally suck. Being cavalier and saying EURY and EDER over and over is not the answer. That's nothing against them either, it's just matter of fact they aren't going to get much from them next year. If those two throw 100 innings at the MLB level that would be incredible. They quite literally are screwed if any of the 6 SP go down for next year and they'll have to sign a starter. As stated, the surplus you desire may occur after 2023 if Meyer/Eder come back healthy, Fulton looks like a # 4 (he's not ready yet), and no one else blows out an arm. That's when they can trade a MLB arm as they'll have an arguable surplus with 8-10 SP candidates. Right now they have 6 and they might have 7 midseason if everything aligns with Eury or Eder.

My position is the team needs a CF, an IF upgrade (likely SS), and since Bender/Poteet are out now and Bass/Pop moved, they need to bring in a veteran right hander (and/or keep Sulser if he is deemed worthy of a 7th inning role).

$80m bucks or so. Everyone here is either great (Sandy, Jazz), good (catcher platoon, all infielders, all remaining SP), acceptable (Named relievers), or have to play them (Garcia and Soler because of the $$$ and the LF to see what they have wiith the kids). This team isn't bad and as-is projects to around 35 WAR (arguably conservatively as well as shown above). If we cherry pick the better season of 2021 versus 2022, you can easily get over 40+. This is without two starting players which is a truly enormous thing to say.

Fortes, Stallings
Cooper
Jazz, Berti
____, Wendle/Rojas
Anderson, Williams
Bleday/Sanchez/Burdick
______
Garcia
Soler

Sandy, Pablo, Cabrera, Luzardo, Garrett, Rogers
Floro, Sulser, ____, _____ (Nance and Neidert likely best two here?)
Scott, Bleier, Okert


I don't have the definitive answer of how to fix this, especially with a low payroll projection, but I do know trading Pablo is not the exclusive answer because he then just creates a 150+ IP hole you then have to fill. You can't seem to wrap your head around that there are other ways to do this besides just Pablo.

If Bruce says $85m for instance, you can ditch Anderson, Sulser, Floro, off that and you have $15m to spend. You just bring up Groshans, the combined trade returns of Anderson, one of Wendle/Rojas, and Floro/Sulser likely get you two right now relievers and your last bullpen spot is likely Sixto/Neidert/Nance/whoever anyways. Four club controlled guys brings you to needing a SS, CF, and RHP reliever and you have $12m bucks. Plus can dip into Salas/Cappe, Fulton, Lewis, and others to trade for a SS, and then do a separate deal for Laureano or whoever which shouldn't hurt that much. And now you have have $5-7m to spend on a right hander. Or hell maybe you just kept Floro, traded Cooper instead for another RHP reliever, and then have $6-8m to spend on a 1 year FA first baseman instead. And if Bruce says $90 or $95 even more room here.

The point is they have plenty of options. The core of the team is very solid. The sky isn't falling. They don't need to be desperate. This is the same thing as last offseason - they need those final 3/4 guys. They failed to spend last year. They failed to dip into the SP depth (while everyone was healthy) to make a trade. What happens now? We'll see, but what I know is, the strength of this team is the 6 SP and while they do need an IF upgrade, they have 8 or the other 9 infielders figured out for sure. That's great to work with. Let's not miss the forest in the trees of sucking. Most Marlins fans are right now. Which goes back to my overall point - the problem is Bruce. No FO can win at $80m. No one.

again, they have no hitting whatsoever. pablo is their best shot to bring in 1 stud bat or 2 nice bats to help the lineup. You're focusing on the lack of pitching left over despite still having sandy, luzardo, cabrera, and eventually eury, Meyer, and eder (sixto is done). Then you still have garrett and rogers. Is it enough next year, probably not for 162 games, they need to sign a back end of the rotation piece to supplement, but you continue to ignore the fact that they have no hitting. literally 0. This team quite literally cannot score any runs. They have 1 proven long term lineup piece after 5 rebuilding years. Trade the guy who they have no intention of re-signing in 2 years and balance out the roster. Yes, they absolutely will need to get creative next year, but they have the major piece in sandy, and plenty of young pieces that can prove themselves and if you sign a back end of the rotation steady piece, there is enough to compensate for the loss and the team overall is better with a few hitting pieces. And moving forward you have enough pieces to create a good rotation, and they already have the major piece in the 2022 cy young winner, under control for years to come at a steep discount. You can work around that with the young pieces they have. This would be a different conversation if they had any chance or intention of signing pablo long term, but they blew the opportunity to do it at a sandy discount and they clearly wont do so moving forward.

Of course, they can trade other pitching pieces for hitting, but you'd be trading guys with higher ceilings and more long term team control. Pablo is the piece to deal, they should have done it at the deadline, and they better not fuck it up again in the offseason. It's not all about 2023, you're worried about 150 innings next year, I'm looking at the next 3 years and what they can do to put together both a solid rotation and competent lineup with the highest ceiling at the lowest cost. Next year they can sign a guy to a 1-2 year deal for a back end spot in the rotation. Then the years after that you still have sandy, cabrera, luzardo, rogers, garrett, eury, Meyer, eder. they have more than enough pitching moving forward, trading any other piece other than pablo when he's gone in 2 years and cant hold up over a full season anyways is just short sighted. The fact that asking them to sign a stop gap quality starter for a year is such a tough ask is more evidence sherman is a failure of an owner who needs to sell the team. Your entire premise is debunked by simply signing a quality competent starter to give us some innings next year.

[fish16]

No dingbat, it's suggestive that these guys are performing well when they play. I don't think Fortes is a 6 WAR player, but it is showing he is doing well. Many have been radically hurt so it's difficult to see what's happening for some (like you) versus the W/L. Missing the forest among the trees.

I already did this for you once, but cutting pasting and adjusting that Bender is now also out.


Stallings/Fortes - 2+ WAR <-- Might be underselling if Fortes is this for real. This is a big unknown for me but this is a floor expectation
Cooper - 2 WAR <-- 2022 pace and 2023 is contract year for one shot at maybe a good 2 year deal
Jazz - 4.5+ WAR <-- This is lower than 2022 pace
SS - ____
3B/all IF backups - Anderson/Wendle/Berti/Williams - 4 <-- Well below 2022 pace. Well well well below
Bleday 1.5+ <-- Basically 2022 pace and I think he'll be pretty OK even if never remarkable. BB/HR play enough. Can add Sanchez/Burdick here. I think someone is a low end regular
_____
Garcia 1.5 <-- Should be better, see 2017-2021. This is below all of those rates.
Soler 1.5 <-- Should be better, barely below production in 2022 per PA and a 2019/post-2021 bender can always come
=17+


Sandy 5+ <-- This is lower than 2022 pace
Pablo 2.5+ <-- This is about 2022 pace
Luzardo 2.5+ <-- This is lower than 2022 pace
Cabrera 2+ <-- This is about 2022 pace and this may be underselling if he can throw 140+ innings
Rogers 2+ <-- Should be better, see 2021 which was double this rate. Statcast doesn't hate him. Probably a tweak, physically and mentally
Garret 2+ <-- This is lower than 2022 pace
Floro, Sulser, Scott, Bleier Okert - 2<-- About 2022 pace and EXTREMELY lower than 2021 pace
____
____
=18

=35+ WAR


Tell me what is unreasonable here, frankly it's Garcia/Soler/other OF if anything. Maybe I am optimistic there, but I can't imagine those guys are "so bad" again. Also, Bleday is going to hit 3 HR in a week pretty soon and you'll say he is going to be JD Martinez directly after and is blossoming so account for that also.


This is $80m and there are opportunities to further cut (Anderson $4.75, Cooper $4.25, Floro $3.5, Berti $2.5, Sulser, $1.25, Okert $1, etc.). They can create some money here if they can say, trade infielders for relievers, call up Groshans immediately, etc.


The sky isn't falling like many think, *BUT* they have to get 2 major bat upgrades and unfortunately also figure out one more right handed bullpen arm. Also, everyone can't get hurt at the same time, including Jazz, Luzardo, and Cabrera can't all miss a half a season again especially.

So, what you're saying is it IS an extrapolation based on their current production to illustrate that some are competent pieces? I hate to break it to you, but if injuries to Jazz and 2 guys who were having terrible seasons to begin with in Soler and Garcia wreck your lineup to the point where you almost set a record for consecutive games without scoring more than 3 runs, your lineup was terrible to begin with.

Wendle has been injured, he's also put up a .650 OPS. Anderson has been injured, he's also put up a .705 OPS. Garcia has been out, he has a .591 OPS. Soler has been out, he has a 695 OPS. We have been injured, yes, but we have a terrible lineup when healthy. This lineup isn't even close, and it has been time for 2+ years now to make a move to deal some of the pitching talent they have to create a competent lineup. They have the most important piece in Sandy, and they have plenty of talent moving forward with team control in Cabrera, Luzardo, Rogers, Garrett, and eventually Meyer, Eder, and Eury, they need 3-4 quality, talented, lineup pieces. Pablo is the one to go to start trying to get there.

You say I'm missing the forest through the trees, when in reality your missing the trees through the forest. This team, even when completely healthy, has a HORSESHIT lineup. they are not even remotely close to being even a competent lineup. They have 1 longterm piece in Jazz who is injury prone, and maybe 1 promising piece in Fortes. The rest is retread veteran replaceable trash. And its injury prone replaceable trash.

What is your solution to fix the lineup? and don't bring up major free agents, because that's delusional.

[fish16]

We have the 11th best starting pitcher ERA in the majors at 3.82. Pablo's era is 3.83. We have depth in the minor leagues coming up, and we have the most important piece in the best pitcher in baseball. They have enough talent to fill the other 4 spots in years to come, and they can sign a stop gap guy to eat some innings to alleviate some pressure off the young kids for next year and then you have a super talented rotation in 2024 and beyond with some combo of Sandy, Rogers, Garrett, Eury, Meyer, Eder, Cabrera, Luzardo. There is enough there moving forward if we're going to be at this payroll level. There is 0 hitting talent in our lineup outside of jazz and really nothing remotely close to MLB ready impact talent in the next year or so in the farm system from the hitting side of things.

[lou]

We have the 11th best starting pitcher ERA in the majors at 3.82. Pablo's era is 3.83. We have depth in the minor leagues coming up, and we have the most important piece in the best pitcher in baseball. They have enough talent to fill the other 4 spots in years to come, and they can sign a stop gap guy to eat some innings to alleviate some pressure off the young kids for next year and then you have a super talented rotation in 2024 and beyond with some combo of Sandy, Rogers, Garrett, Eury, Meyer, Eder, Cabrera, Luzardo. There is enough there moving forward if we're going to be at this payroll level. There is 0 hitting talent in our lineup outside of jazz and really nothing remotely close to MLB ready impact talent in the next year or so in the farm system from the hitting side of things.

Not in 2023, yes in 2024. Are we punting 2023?

The Marlins have given 18 starts this year to Hernandez, Castano, Neidert, Hoeing, and "bullpen days." Where is this depth you speak of right now, because that's how you lose as this number is only increasing ROS more than likely. This is also ignoring Garrett has thrown 13 and he is a REVELATION and they got lucky with him. This is already over 30+ desperation starts for the season, and they have been so bailed out by Garret isn't not funny. If you think Eury/Eder are starting 20+ combined games next year and eating 100+ innings you are mad. There *IS* depth coming but it's not until Meyer is healthy, Eury/Eder/Fulton are a year older, and they see if something is coming with Sixto/Poteet/Neidert/etc. i.e. 2024 so you can't really trade the top 6 MLB arms right now unless you immediately sign a #3 SP or better, which could happen I suppose with a 1 year reclamation project. Which seems riskier than just keeping Pablo duh.

If they go into next year with Sandy, Luzardo (150 IP Max), Garrett (150 IP max), Cabrera (125 IP max), and Rogers (who knows, he could handle more) they are *FUCKED*. This is over 650 innings going to the team's bullpen and backup SP. And that's if those guys stay healthy and 4 of them have been on the DL/away for significant periods EACH OF THE LAST THREE YEARS. That is bananas if this is the plan opening day. BANANAS.

Also saying there is 0 hitting talent is ridiculous. They have solid set ups at C, every IF position, and likely DH. The OF is a mess which is they they need a CF, and presumably an IF upgrade so Anderson/Berti/Williams can kick out into the OF and help.

[lou]

So, what you're saying is it IS an extrapolation based on their current production to illustrate that some are competent pieces? I hate to break it to you, but if injuries to Jazz and 2 guys who were having terrible seasons to begin with in Soler and Garcia wreck your lineup to the point where you almost set a record for consecutive games without scoring more than 3 runs, your lineup was terrible to begin with.

Wendle has been injured, he's also put up a .650 OPS. Anderson has been injured, he's also put up a .705 OPS. Garcia has been out, he has a .591 OPS. Soler has been out, he has a 695 OPS. We have been injured, yes, but we have a terrible lineup when healthy. This lineup isn't even close, and it has been time for 2+ years now to make a move to deal some of the pitching talent they have to create a competent lineup. They have the most important piece in Sandy, and they have plenty of talent moving forward with team control in Cabrera, Luzardo, Rogers, Garrett, and eventually Meyer, Eder, and Eury, they need 3-4 quality, talented, lineup pieces. Pablo is the one to go to start trying to get there.

You say I'm missing the forest through the trees, when in reality your missing the trees through the forest. This team, even when completely healthy, has a HORSESHIT lineup. they are not even remotely close to being even a competent lineup. They have 1 longterm piece in Jazz who is injury prone, and maybe 1 promising piece in Fortes. The rest is retread veteran replaceable trash. And its injury prone replaceable trash.

What is your solution to fix the lineup? and don't bring up major free agents, because that's delusional.

I just can't. You want to cherry pick all the bad losses and not objectively look at the situation. Coming from the local cheerleader this is maddening. Basically, you are as wrong right now as you were when you thought they'd win 88. How about chill out and realize you don't need to be so extreme in both directions? This is stupiud.

And yes the lineup wasn't good to begin with because of AGUILAR and DLC ----> As said 1,000 times they needed a CF and a more versatile player who could hit left handed pitching. This was identified in March. Sure, Stallings, Garcia, and Soler have been bad also. Likely regression to the mean - look at Stallings post right now for perspective. It's like their last few months are forever. Sound like someone else here?

They don't have plenty of arm talent in 2023. Three of those guys you named are likely throwing under 100 IP in 2023 at the MLB level. Two of their three best longterm RHP relievers (Bender, Poteet) are also now out. Are you following? If you want to PUNT 2023, then trade Pablo. I don't think they need to do that, because...

That horseshit position core has been hurt and is really not bad. They are all complimentary pieces after Jazz for sure, so they have to figure our SS/CF. As mentioned ad nauseam, they can trade from Salas/Fulton/Lewis and get one of them, and figure out how to get the other. I think some payroll increase is coming even if Correa is a pipedream.

This *could* include moving Pablo. I already mentioned a hypothetical there *WHERE INNINGS ARE REPLACED* but you just blew through that as you want to have a pity party on being so unfathomably wrong about an 88 win team. The Pablo idea BTW was something like:

Pablo, Cooper, Sanchez, Okert -- > A. Rosario, N. Jones, J. Naylor. Sign Rosario for 5/$55 or something. The math works out

Salas, Fulton, I. Lewis, Burdick, McCambley/Soriano, and 1-2 throw-ins outside top 15 -- > Laureano, Blackburn, Puk

I have a hard time believing either would say no here as Cleveland has three FV50 2B/SS ready to go and multiple OF options (plus getting them one) even without those two, and Oakland gets a real center piece here and many viable flyer prospects for guys that won't help them when they are ready to next contend.

This is now $82m-ish

Fortes, Stallings
Jones, Naylor
Jazz
Rosario, Wendle
Anderson, Berti
Bleday
Laureano
Garcia
Soler

Sandy, Blackburn, Cabrera
Rogers, Garrett, Luzardo
Floro, Sulser, ____, Nance/Neidert/Sixto
Puk, Bleier, Scott

AAA - Henry, Johnston, Groshans, LeBlanc, Jerar
AAA - Nardi, Simpson, inventory relievers, and Eury and Eder looming

So now let's talk what kind of expensive closer to sign as they can now devote payroll to a luxury as this team is set. They have years and years of control everywhere here. The only FA are Wendle, Anderson, Floro, and Bleier, and guess what, Groshans, Berry, Eury, and Eder should be 2024 MLB ready. See what I did here.


They need to do something like this absent larger Correa level spending. I think they could also do this without Pablo as they could just do the Oakland move here, and kick out a different SP for "just" a SS and keep Cooper, etc. Or maybe they can sign a SP for $5-8m to find those innings. But those innings are of the utmost importance and they have to be good ones.

[Nick]

Not in 2023, yes in 2024. Are we punting 2023?

The Marlins have given 18 starts this year to Hernandez, Castano, Neidert, Hoeing, and "bullpen days." Where is this depth you speak of right now, because that's how you lose as this number is only increasing ROS more than likely. This is also ignoring Garrett has thrown 13 and he is a REVELATION and they got lucky with him. This is already over 30+ desperation starts for the season, and they have been so bailed out by Garret isn't not funny. If you think Eury/Eder are starting 20+ combined games next year and eating 100+ innings you are mad. There *IS* depth coming but it's not until Meyer is healthy, Eury/Eder/Fulton are a year older, and they see if something is coming with Sixto/Poteet/Neidert/etc. i.e. 2024 so you can't really trade the top 6 MLB arms right now unless you immediately sign a #3 SP or better, which could happen I suppose with a 1 year reclamation project. Which seems riskier than just keeping Pablo duh.

If they go into next year with Sandy, Luzardo (150 IP Max), Garrett (150 IP max), Cabrera (125 IP max), and Rogers (who knows, he could handle more) they are *FUCKED*. This is over 650 innings going to the team's bullpen and backup SP. And that's if those guys stay healthy and 4 of them have been on the DL/away for significant periods EACH OF THE LAST THREE YEARS. That is bananas if this is the plan opening day. BANANAS.

Also saying there is 0 hitting talent is ridiculous. They have solid set ups at C, every IF position, and likely DH. The OF is a mess which is they they need a CF, and presumably an IF upgrade so Anderson/Berti/Williams can kick out into the OF and help.

This is a little misleading. Hernandez accounts for half of those, and it's not like we didn't have other options behind him during those 9 starts he made. The FO made a call the he was one of our 5 best starters. They were wrong. Castano and Neidert have given us exactly what you would want from fill-in AAA guys. Most teams would be ecstatic if they were their 8th or 9th SP. With as much attrition as there has been when it comes to SP, and there has been an unbelievable amount, the Starting Pitching hasn't been the problem. I would argue the amount of injuries the SP have sustained this year, would be impossible for any team to completely survive, and if we're planning our future seasons based on the attrition of 2022 being the norm, it'll be impossible to ever have enough pitching. Starting Pitching depth is an asset, and the strongest part of our organization. Our pitcher durability needs to get better, training staff needs to be better. There are a lot of things wrong here, but personnel-wise dealing from pitching depth to build hitting depth is still the wise move.

[Nick]

And Braxton Garrett is a former top 10 pick, former top prospect in the organization. Let's not act like the dude came out of nowhere.

[Lee Stone]

They have solid set ups at C, every IF position, and likely DH.

What? I'd be fine with dumping the entire roster minus Jazz.

[fish16]

I just can't. You want to cherry pick all the bad losses and not objectively look at the situation. Coming from the local cheerleader this is maddening. Basically, you are as wrong right now as you were when you thought they'd win 88. How about chill out and realize you don't need to be so extreme in both directions? This is stupiud.

And yes the lineup wasn't good to begin with because of AGUILAR and DLC ----> As said 1,000 times they needed a CF and a more versatile player who could hit left handed pitching. This was identified in March. Sure, Stallings, Garcia, and Soler have been bad also. Likely regression to the mean - look at Stallings post right now for perspective. It's like their last few months are forever. Sound like someone else here?

They don't have plenty of arm talent in 2023. Three of those guys you named are likely throwing under 100 IP in 2023 at the MLB level. Two of their three best longterm RHP relievers (Bender, Poteet) are also now out. Are you following? If you want to PUNT 2023, then trade Pablo. I don't think they need to do that, because...

That horseshit position core has been hurt and is really not bad. They are all complimentary pieces after Jazz for sure, so they have to figure our SS/CF. As mentioned ad nauseam, they can trade from Salas/Fulton/Lewis and get one of them, and figure out how to get the other. I think some payroll increase is coming even if Correa is a pipedream.

This *could* include moving Pablo. I already mentioned a hypothetical there *WHERE INNINGS ARE REPLACED* but you just blew through that as you want to have a pity party on being so unfathomably wrong about an 88 win team. The Pablo idea BTW was something like:

Pablo, Cooper, Sanchez, Okert -- > A. Rosario, N. Jones, J. Naylor. Sign Rosario for 5/$55 or something. The math works out

Salas, Fulton, I. Lewis, Burdick, McCambley/Soriano, and 1-2 throw-ins outside top 15 -- > Laureano, Blackburn, Puk

I have a hard time believing either would say no here as Cleveland has three FV50 2B/SS ready to go and multiple OF options (plus getting them one) even without those two, and Oakland gets a real center piece here and many viable flyer prospects for guys that won't help them when they are ready to next contend.

This is now $82m-ish

Fortes, Stallings
Jones, Naylor
Jazz
Rosario, Wendle
Anderson, Berti
Bleday
Laureano
Garcia
Soler

Sandy, Blackburn, Cabrera
Rogers, Garrett, Luzardo
Floro, Sulser, ____, Nance/Neidert/Sixto
Puk, Bleier, Scott

AAA - Henry, Johnston, Groshans, LeBlanc, Jerar
AAA - Nardi, Simpson, inventory relievers, and Eury and Eder looming

So now let's talk what kind of expensive closer to sign as they can now devote payroll to a luxury as this team is set. They have years and years of control everywhere here. The only FA are Wendle, Anderson, Floro, and Bleier, and guess what, Groshans, Berry, Eury, and Eder should be 2024 MLB ready. See what I did here.


They need to do something like this absent larger Correa level spending. I think they could also do this without Pablo as they could just do the Oakland move here, and kick out a different SP for "just" a SS and keep Cooper, etc. Or maybe they can sign a SP for $5-8m to find those innings. But those innings are of the utmost importance and they have to be good ones.

Punting 2023 would be keeping pablo and counting on regression for guys that have shown no signs of regression and arent all that great players at their peak. Stallings huge regression is an .814 OPS in august in 42 AB's. He is still under a .600 OPS for the year. If he's your backup and they commit to playing fortes 100-120 games, I can live with that. But when have guys regressed to their mean with this franchise in the last 10 years? They have a distinct problem of established veterans coming here and shitting the bed. It has happened to almost every single guy they have signed since they moved to this new ballpark. If you want to pin your hopes on soler and garcia and stallings regressing to the mean, be my guest, you'd be the one punting on 2023 if that's what you're hoping for. The bottom line is that other than jazz, they have literally 0 established impact hitters. they have a lot of guys who can play a role and be decent, but they shouldn't be full time starters and if they are, they should be your 7-8-9 guys in the lineup. Garcia they have no choice to keep and his track record indicates every other year he is productive, and ill give him the benefit of the doubt that he signed a big contract, then had a lockout, and might have not worked his ass off to keep up the performance, but no one else has any real chance of all of a sudden becoming the impact hitter they need, and they need 3-4 of them.

To say they have a solid set up at every single IF position is beyond laughable. They have Lewin diaz, Joey Wendle, Miguel Rojas, and Brian Anderson. Anderson is the only one there with any kind of impact bat track record, and he cant stay healthy and his bat is barely impact. He is what he is, a decent stop gap 3b who can be a starter but should be your 6-7 best hitter. They need all 3 OF spots, and long term answers at 1b, SS, and 3b.

To say this position core is not horseshit and looks a lot worse because of injuries is some serious retroactive spin as to what happened this year. this lineup is complete trash, the only impact hitter is jazz, and their lineup was horrendous even when guys were healthy in April, may, and june. This team needs impact hitters in the worst way, not guys who hit .700 OPS and have inflated defensively carried WAR.

Go out and sign quintana to a 1-2 year deal and let him eat innings next year if you're worried about innings next year, you still have the pitching depth and a lot of talent for next year and the years beyond, and use pablo to get 1-2 impact bats and spread the talent more evenly across the team. If your hope is simply to run it back, make minor moves, hope for regression, and see where you land, where you will land is again a middle of the road team, and that's with no injuries.

[fish16]

This is a little misleading. Hernandez accounts for half of those, and it's not like we didn't have other options behind him during those 9 starts he made. The FO made a call the he was one of our 5 best starters. They were wrong. Castano and Neidert have given us exactly what you would want from fill-in AAA guys. Most teams would be ecstatic if they were their 8th or 9th SP. With as much attrition as there has been when it comes to SP, and there has been an unbelievable amount, the Starting Pitching hasn't been the problem. I would argue the amount of injuries the SP have sustained this year, would be impossible for any team to completely survive, and if we're planning our future seasons based on the attrition of 2022 being the norm, it'll be impossible to ever have enough pitching. Starting Pitching depth is an asset, and the strongest part of our organization. Our pitcher durability needs to get better, training staff needs to be better. There are a lot of things wrong here, but personnel-wise dealing from pitching depth to build hitting depth is still the wise move.

exactly. is there risk of a lack of SP depth with pablo gone? absolutely, but when you're dealing against a stacked deck, you take calculated risks. they have Sandy, which is a big first piece, and Garrett, Luzardo, and Cabrera have all looked really good this year when healthy, and you have Eury, Eder, and Meyer for the future years as their innings counts grow. To be worried about SP depth with the group we have outside of Pablo and when our lineup is as punchless as it is right now is insanity. We have an 80 million payroll with no real hopes of an actual spending spree, absolutely no punch in the lineup, and no lineup pieces or surefire prospects we can count on moving forward out of the hitters in our system. You wont build the perfect, risk-free team with that payroll, but you can rearrange the pieces to build a team on paper that is a hell of a lot more complete than what we have. They have enough pitching pieces long term and enough talent to feasibly create a really solid rotation with an ace next year, they need to do everything possible to improve the lineup.

If they go out and sign a guy like Correa which is what a good owner would do, it's a different story. but that's also a fairy tale, not anything realistic.

[fish16]

we are 27th in OPS and Slugging percentage, 23rd in hr's, 21st in doubles, 27th in walks, 26th in OBP. This lineup isn't regressions away from being even remotely competent, and those regressions arent all that likely. To blame it on Aguilar and De la Cruz is beyond laughable

[rmc523]

I think if they did nothing, it’s hard to envision everyone being as bad, or unhealthy, as they’ve been this year.
that said, that’s not enough to get this team where they need to be, and they need to make moves to improve that.

[lou]

And Braxton Garrett is a former top 10 pick, former top prospect in the organization. Let's not act like the dude came out of nowhere.

He absolutely came out of nowhere as a FV40 prospect at best preseason

[lou]

They have solid set ups at C, every IF position, and likely DH.

What? I'd be fine with dumping the entire roster minus Jazz.

Cool, they can't do that, as well as I'm right regardless. Also not going to take advice from someone who thinks they should trade Sandy.

Not everyone needs to be a star. Fortes, Cooper, Berti, Wendle/Rojas, Anderson, Williams, and presumably they will get something out of Garcia, Soler, Stallings, Bleday, Burdick, and Sanchez.

This is a fine group absolutely needing 2 upgrades.

[lou]

This is a little misleading. Hernandez accounts for half of those, and it's not like we didn't have other options behind him during those 9 starts he made. The FO made a call the he was one of our 5 best starters. They were wrong. Castano and Neidert have given us exactly what you would want from fill-in AAA guys. Most teams would be ecstatic if they were their 8th or 9th SP. With as much attrition as there has been when it comes to SP, and there has been an unbelievable amount, the Starting Pitching hasn't been the problem. I would argue the amount of injuries the SP have sustained this year, would be impossible for any team to completely survive, and if we're planning our future seasons based on the attrition of 2022 being the norm, it'll be impossible to ever have enough pitching. Starting Pitching depth is an asset, and the strongest part of our organization. Our pitcher durability needs to get better, training staff needs to be better. There are a lot of things wrong here, but personnel-wise dealing from pitching depth to build hitting depth is still the wise move.

This depth doesn't exist for 2023 at the MLB level if you trade Pablo (or the other 5 MLB starters). They'd need to replace him with 150 MLB starter innings. This also ignores Bender/Poteet injuries severely hurt pen depth, as well as Bass/Pop were traded so there is even less than before.

If we want to talk about pitching trades, its Eury, Meyer, Eder, Fulton, Sixto, Miller, Millbrandt, etc. "THAT" is the wise move considering 3 of the guys on the last are likely not 2023 options, and 3 more and likely not even 2024 options.