Offense Continues to Be Non-existent; Marlins Lose 4th in a Row Against Mets 5-1

[HUGG]

I would say given the reputations of most of these guys who have busted, if you're gonna take issue with this organization, it should be with player development, not evaluation.

Because everyone in baseball was wrong about Maybin, Miller, Hermida, etc.

[Swifty]

That's fine too, Hugg. I've already said I'd absolutely clean house.

[Mainge]

I think I don't care that you put blame on him for Maybin/Miller but if you do, you have to give him credit for Lomo.

[Swifty]

But why do they have anything to do with one another?
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As in, why does "blame him for missing on the Cabrera trade, but credit him for LoMo" have to have that 'but' in there?

[Erick]

Yes, really. I don't see the relationship.

Logan is a raw prospect who has no professional experience.

Maybin and Miller had professional experience.

It's completely different in terms of evaluation. And that's completely ignoring how much extra is tied to Maybin and Miller, like the Dodgers offer, like the fact that we were trading, arguably the best hitter in baseball, almost certainly the best young player and almost certainly the best player ever to put on the Marlins' uniform.

Maybin and Miller were both top 10 prospects at the time of the trade.

If you're going to blame Beinfest, you might as well just call everyone involved in the game stupid, as well.

There were more "Andrew Miller is gonna be the next Randy Johnson" comments from scouts than "Andrew Miller is going to be absolutely terrible and become a bust."

Prior to the deal, Miller was considered to be a prospect with great stuff, putting up good #'s in the minor leagues.

It was a short sample but there weren't even glaring signs that he wouldn't be able to throw strikes at all. He had a 1.5 BB/9 in 30 innings at AA as a 22-year old and only allowed 2 ER's in that time. He was a really good prospect who was rather dominant (and, in hindsight, now looks like he was rushed to the big leagues for sure).

[HUGG]

But why do they have anything to do with one another?
--------------------
As in, why does "blame him for missing on the Cabrera trade, but credit him for LoMo" have to have that 'but' in there?

Well, by my logic of it not being an evaluation issue, then we're moving to player development and they developed Morrison did they not?

I mean, you can't just solely focus on the negatives.

[Erick]

So then by that logic, he should never get blamed for any personnel decision regarding a young player based on the "rather impossible" or "tough" to predict standard....?

Everybody was wrong, though. Don't you think that's a case of something just going terribly wrong after the fact?

It's easy to evaluate a trade after knowing the results. It was tough to predict this.

Sometimes shit works out and sometimes it doesn't. The Bonifacio case, for example, is one that doesn't look so terrible now but looked rather terrible back then.

[Swifty]

Can't you just say "you're being unfair, he should get credit for LoMo"...?

In which case, that's a tough one to say because that logic means he deserves blame for late round prospects that miss, which I think is unfair. You're talking about a collection of 30 people, not just Beinfest, thinking that 659 players were better than LoMo. Alternatively, if Beinfest had even an inkling that LoMo was going to turn into this he had 21 other opportunities to take him. Or, yet another way, he allowed his competitors, collectively, 638 cracks at taking him away from the Marlins. I fail to see how that's anything other than just dumb luck. Credit for dumb luck, sure, but I don't know if you want to lead your resume with that.

[Bobbob1313]

Can't you just say "you're being unfair, he should get credit for LoMo"...?

In which case, that's a tough one to say because that logic means he deserves blame for late round prospects that miss, which I think is unfair. You're talking about a collection of 30 people, not just Beinfest, thinking that 659 players were better than LoMo. Alternatively, if Beinfest had even an inkling that LoMo was going to turn into this he had 21 other opportunities to take him. Or, yet another way, he allowed his competitors, collectively, 638 cracks at taking him away from the Marlins. I fail to see how that's anything other than just dumb luck. Credit for dumb luck, sure, but I don't know if you want to lead your resume with that.

If you're going with the appeal to authority argument, then why does he get blamed for Miller and Maybin missing when everyone thought they would be fantastic players?

[Namaste]

So, somewhat related....Beinfest kinda sorta has to be on the hot seat, right?

No.

[Erick]

Can't you just say "you're being unfair, he should get credit for LoMo"...?

In which case, that's a tough one to say because that logic means he deserves blame for late round prospects that miss, which I think is unfair. You're talking about a collection of 30 people, not just Beinfest, thinking that 659 players were better than LoMo. Alternatively, if Beinfest had even an inkling that LoMo was going to turn into this he had 21 other opportunities to take him. Or, yet another way, he allowed his competitors, collectively, 638 cracks at taking him away from the Marlins. I fail to see how that's anything other than just dumb luck. Credit for dumb luck, sure, but I don't know if you want to lead your resume with that.

You can't discredit "dumb luck" and continually acknowledge "shit luck," as well.

What about the moves he's made that have helped the organization?

No GM out there has a perfect track record.

[Swifty]

Maybin and Miller were both top 10 prospects at the time of the trade.

If you're going to blame Beinfest, you might as well just call everyone involved in the game stupid, as well.

There were more "Andrew Miller is gonna be the next Randy Johnson" comments from scouts than "Andrew Miller is going to be absolutely terrible and become a bust."

Prior to the deal, Miller was considered to be a prospect with great stuff, putting up good #'s in the minor leagues.

It was a short sample but there weren't even glaring signs that he wouldn't be able to throw strikes at all. He had a 1.5 BB/9 in 30 innings at AA as a 22-year old and only allowed 2 ER's in that time. He was a really good prospect who was rather dominant (and, in hindsight, now looks like he was rushed to the big leagues for sure).

You're doing this based on baseball america's ranking, not the collective mindset of all 30 GM's/front offices. It's hard to make the collective leap you're making and say everyone expected them to succeed. It's also hard to simply look at where they were drafted and say they were inevitable stars simply by virtue of their draft position.

[HUGG]

But that's what you're doing by complaining about our first round picks.

[Swifty]

You can't discredit "dumb luck" and continually acknowledge "shit luck," as well.

What about the moves he's made that have helped the organization?

No GM out there has a perfect track record.

I wish T&B were still here, but I don't think "shit luck" applies to the Detroit trade. I think there were more than a few who were legitimately disappointed.

[Mainge]

But why do they have anything to do with one another?
--------------------
As in, why does "blame him for missing on the Cabrera trade, but credit him for LoMo" have to have that 'but' in there?

Not talking about the trade as a whole. I'm talking about Maybin and Miller specifically. You're saying it's impossible for Lomo to have been identified as a good player, but those two should have been identified as busts. I'm saying that's pretty dumb. If you're going to blame Beinfest for not seeing that they weren't good, you can't say "But he didn't really know about Lomo because I said so because fuck Beinfest."

You are to Beinfest what MH is to Ireland, and I don't feel strongly about Beinfest like I do Ireland, so I'm not going to bother anymore.