Donnie Fuckin' Murphy Saves A Panda, Fish Win in 10 3-2 Over Nats

[nny]

So how, again, does the former second baseman have better plate discipline than the current one?

I didn't say anything about "plate discipline" (Which is a vague and constantly changing definition so I see no real point in even using it).

I said about going deep into counts. That's how this entire thing started, MH made a comment about going deep into counts and Erik said that's what happens when you replace Uggla with Infante.

Uggla goes deeper into counts. That's a fact. Uggla's among the best in baseball, Infante's one of the worst. That's a fact.

As far as your own arguement (That Uggla swings at "trash"), the numbers you posted yourself shows Infante and Uggla swing at a similar rate. Hell, Infante swings at more stuff outside the strike zone. The only difference shown is in contact ability.

[Bobbob1313]

No, I'm not.

Uggla's defenders are confusing plate discipline with the ability to not swing at a ball that bounces in front of home plate or is three feet out of the strike zone.

And Infante, by your numbers, is worse at swinging at pitches outside of the zone.

He's simply better at making contact when he swings. But he swings at worse pitches more often. Uggla is a more patient hitter. He knows what pitches to lay off.
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Is your point that Uggla swings and misses more? Sure, he does. But he also swings at fewer bad pitches.

[Omar]

I didn't say anything about "plate discipline" (Which is a vague and constantly changing definition so I see no real point in even using it).

I said about going deep into counts. That's how this entire thing started, MH made a comment about going deep into counts and Erik said that's what happens when you replace Uggla with Infante.

Uggla goes deeper into counts. That's a fact. Uggla's among the best in baseball, Infante's one of the worst. That's a fact.

As far as your own arguement (That Uggla swings at "trash"), the numbers you posted yourself shows Infante and Uggla swing at a similar rate. Hell, Infante swings at more stuff outside the strike zone. The only difference shown is in contact ability.

The contested statements were twofold: Infante lessens the OBP at second base (Incorrect - over the last five years, the difference is mostly negligible) and Infante cannot work the count, a supposition I disagree with because of their places in the lineup.

If we're going to do our best, whenever possible, to isolate what a player actually does and what he doesn't do, then let's actually do that. When you account for the differences in position in the lineup (why I specifically mentioned fastball percentage and strike percentage as a distinguishing factor), you can get closer to an actual standard. Our lineup has been in flux this season due to Stanton's injury, so this will be a question that develops over time, but batting in Uggla's area of the lineup has shown John Buck 49.1% strikes in 2011. Buck has a career P/PA of 3.66, but this year it's 4.06 after getting bumped up from his usual spot of 8th. Coincidence?

So Infante and Uggla swing at a similar percentage of balls, but Infante makes contact more often. So how doesn't that show that he's better at identifying the pitches he can make contact with and swinging at them?

Uggla is a more patient hitter. He knows what pitches to lay off.

Swinging at balls ≠ poor plate discipline

Swinging at a pitch you can hit is a discipline, regardless of whether that pitch is a ball or a strike. If you're failing to make contact more often, you actually don't know what pitches to lay off.

[Mainge]

Their positions in the lineup aren't relevant.

[Bobbob1313]

Buck has a career P/PA of 3.66, but this year it's 4.06 after getting bumped up from his usual spot of 8th. Coincidence?

It might not be a coincidence, but it's probably not worth mentioning.

He has 18 PA and he's seen 73 Pitches. 8 of those came in that grand slam at bat. Take that one at bat out and he's 3.8 P/PA.

Judging anything by 4 games is going to give you a completely skewed set of data.
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So how doesn't that show that he's better at identifying the pitches he can make contact with and swinging at them?


Swinging at balls ≠ poor plate discipline

Swinging at a pitch you can hit is a discipline, regardless of whether that pitch is a ball or a strike. If you're failing to make contact more often, you actually don't know what pitches to lay off.

He's better at making contact. That doesn't mean he recognizes pitches better, it means he's better at putting every type of ball in play. He's a contact hitter. It doesn't mean he sees the plate better.

Also, I'm not sure what it has to do with anything but you were asking, but for his career, Infante sees 60% fastballs compared to 52% for Uggla.

[nny]

Yeah I don't understand why anyone would use 2011 data outside of grasping at straws.

[Erick]

I don't understand how pitchers avoiding Uggla = plate discipline. He is dependent on his power to draw walks.

He's drawn 363 walks in his career; 13 of them were intentional.

All in all, he has a good eye. He doesn't just draw walks because pitchers are scared of his power all the time.
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Considering the difference between Dunn and Pierre's OBP is higher than any of the years I mentioned for Infante/Uggla (either way), it's not the same argument. However, plate discipline is equal parts knowing which pitch to let go and which pitch to swing at.

Pierre has a career .347 .OBP.

His first two seasons with us, he put up a .374 .OBP & then a .361 .OBP. His .OBP #'s went down because he couldn't sustain his .babip (batting average) luck #'s.

It wouldn't surprise me if the same thing happened to Infante, who actually is more prone to having that happen considering he's not even fast.

Don't be fooled by the comparable .OBP #'s the last couple of years; the way Uggla puts up his #'s is more sustainable than Infante relying on his batting average to make his .OBP look respectable.

And as Nny already pointed out, Uggla sees more pitches per plate appearance, as well.