2009 AL/NL Awards Discussion

[nny]

Happy Hanley got second

LOL at Utley getting 8th, with no second place votes and only 2 3rd place votes. He only appeared on 18 of 32 ballads lol....

Nearly half of the voters don't even think he's a top 10 valuable player |:

[Swifty]

I'd argue Utley was neither the most valuable nor second most valuable player on the Phillies in '09.

Congrats to Hanley, 2nd place to Pujols is like a kinda sorta 1st, his time will come soon enough.

[emkayseven]

coghlan got a 10th place vote, cool

[Maybin]

well, so did Jeremy Affeldt =/

[emkayseven]

affeldt was lights out, he had a fafillion holds

[nny]

I'd argue Utley was neither the most valuable nor second most valuable player on the Phillies in '09.

Really?

[Bobbob1313]

I'd argue Utley was neither the most valuable nor second most valuable player on the Phillies in '09.

I really hope you're not about to say Werth or Ibanez were more valuable than the 2nd baseman who OPSed .905 and, by most measures, played either the best or was in the top 5 in defense this season at his position. That'd be silly.

I mean, it almost can't be argued that Howard was more valuable than Utley, all things considered. I'm assuming he's the guy you definitely put as more valuable than Utley.

Utley had the highest OPS of all 2nd basemen in the NL. Martin Prado was 2nd at .822, and he played barely half of his games at 2nd base. Uggla was 3rd, and he was 92 points below him. He also played at best a mediocre 2nd base.

Howard had the 6th highest OPS of all 1st basemen in the NL, he measures as barely above average by UZR.

So one guy isn't in the top 3rd in NL 1st basemen in OPS and plays barely above average defense and he's more valuable than the guy who leads NL 2nd basemen by a wide margin in OPS and is, by most accounts, at least among the most gifted with the glove at his position? Oh, and Utley stole 23 bases and didn't get caught once!

Meh. Chase Utley might be the most underrated player in baseball, and he has the misfortune of played 70 feet to the right of the maybe the most overrated player in baseball.

[Jewbility]

I don't know if I agree that there are 2 players more valuable on the Phillies...but I think comparing Utley and Howard based on their respective positions is a very odd way to judge value to their team.

[PitchingWinsGames]

Not really because if you had two hypothetical worlds... and in World A the Phillies have Utley and a league average 1B replacing Howard and World B is the reverse, the World A Phillies should be the better team.

[Jewbility]

But you're assuming that 1st and 2nd base production is equal on all terms...I don't get it. Not to mention, above average 1st base production is probably more valuable to scoring than an elite 2nd base production. Defensively, I guess there's more room for comparison.

[Bobbob1313]

A .930 OPS from an average defensive first baseman is far less valuable than a .900 OPS from an elite defensive 2nd baseman.

And positional value is a big deal. Hanley was only 6th in OPS in the NL, but each of the guys ahead of him was a 1B. So a 1B of Hanley's abilities would be the 6th best of his position, instead of the best at his position. That should matter.

And lefty, it's not assuming they are equal. It's assuming they aren't equal. It's easier to get a good first baseman than a good 2nd baseman, at least offensively.

[PitchingWinsGames]

But you're assuming that 1st and 2nd base production is equal on all terms...I don't get it. Not to mention, above average 1st base production is probably more valuable to scoring than an elite 2nd base production. Defensively, I guess there's more room for comparison.

That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying Utley + Average 1B > Howard + Average 2B in terms of net production. Someone else can post the numbers, but based on OPS, the first pair should do better

[Namaste]

I'd argue Utley was neither the most valuable nor second most valuable player on the Phillies in '09.

Congrats to Hanley, 2nd place to Pujols is like a kinda sorta 1st, his time will come soon enough.

Swift did you eat too many cupcakes from that place you like in NYC because if you did the sugar made your brain break.

[Swifty]

Well, I don't think anyone would dispute Cliff Lee and his 125 ERA+ is the '09 Phillies MVP. In this hypothetical realm of discussion, a pitcher can be an MVP, and a player can win it even if he's only there for half a season. Without Lee, the Phillies are not a coast to the division title kind of team, they're just not.

Secondly, the mistake everyone is making is corner-stone player versus superior year. Yes, if you're building a team, 10 out of 10 times you take Utley (even if he is a lot older than people realize and want to discard Uggla because of age).

HOWEVER, for 2009, Howard's OPS+ was higher than Utley's, he drove in more runs (yes, I went there) had more extra base hits and had more hits overall as well. Generally speaking, he was everything you'd want a 4 hole hitter to be.

So yes, I truly believe Utley in 2009 was less valuable to the Phillies than Howard and Lee.

[wanks1212]

If we're using ERA+:

Cliff Lee threw 79.2 innings of 125 ERA+. J.A. Happ threw 166 innings of 145 ERA+.

Cliff Lee is a far better pitcher, and a vastly superior bet going forward. Just look at the peripherals. But ERA+ isn't a good way to make the point that Lee was the Phillies MVP. Lee's results, in terms of runs allowed, were a bit fluky, but, really, they weren't all that great. His ERA was 3.39.

Also, stuff like this:

Without Lee, the Phillies are not a coast to the division title kind of team, they're just not.

can also be re-stated as:

Without Howard/Utley, the Phillies are not a coast to the division title kind of team, they're just not

and be no less accurate.