July 2021 Game Thread

[sports24/7]

And regardless of how much they have, it really looks like they don’t plan on spending even close to league average. They’re unwilling to make a competitive offer to probably by far the best available CF on the market after getting a new TV deal done, having Chen come off the books, and selling the stadium naming rights. Again, this all comes with the caveat that we don’t know what they’re going to actually spend this offseason. Maybe they’ll surprise us. If they don’t, however, they should be crucified by fans and the media for being more of the same as what we’ve had.

[Maddawg]

My fear has always been that MLB knew Mas had the superior bankroll to own a small market team but they went with Sherman/Jeter because of Jeter.

I thought it was Loria's choice & MLB just had to formally "approve it" ? I was rooting for Mas and that Jeter would, quit with Sherman, and join the Mas team....

[rmc523]

I agree with your overall take that we need to wait to see what happens in the offseason to really crucify them on the money stuff. I’m not optimistic they’re going to spend on someone like Correa, or anything close, but I hope I’m wrong. If they don’t, this is basically the previous ownership group financially with a better international outlook, and better at developing players. But those latter two points won’t make up for the first, unfortunately. They aren’t the Rays.

As far as your plan, I agree with most of it, but I think they need a better plan at CF. I just don’t know that I see a way for them to add a good enough player there unless they’re going to give up valuable prospects, and I have very little faith in any of the CF in the system currently in the short term or long. The FA market at CF is going to be pretty weak with Marte being by far the best player out there. I’d bet they probably add a glove first CF from that group to start in 2022, though, and that’s pretty frustrating.

The other thing I’m not sure you’re accounting for is I don’t see Duvall opting in at this point. So you’re either going to have to extend him soon, or you’re probably losing him with the amount of HRs he’s going to end up with at the end of the year. Because of that, and because they’re not going to extend him, I think they need to trade him.

It's concerning to me that they didn't even attempt to sign JT to his reasonable deal - I know the history there, but he would've filled the obvious need at catcher, but this FO is beyond stubborn when it comes to just cutting guys loose. I put the odds of signing Correa at 0.000000000000000001% - not a chance they spend that kind of money.

[rmc523]

And regardless of how much they have, it really looks like they don’t plan on spending even close to league average. They’re unwilling to make a competitive offer to probably by far the best available CF on the market after getting a new TV deal done, having Chen come off the books, and selling the stadium naming rights. Again, this all comes with the caveat that we don’t know what they’re going to actually spend this offseason. Maybe they’ll surprise us. If they don’t, however, they should be crucified by fans and the media for being more of the same as what we’ve had.

This is where I am.

This offseason is do or die for them, honestly. If they have another middling offseason where they do next to nothing, I don't want to say I'll renounce my being a fan or anything, but I'll just frankly not care - if they don't, why should I? I'll still hope they do ok, but I'm not going to waste my time watching daily if they continually don't try.

I think someone said it here - they're basically Loria level cheapness with a little more international/draft spending/focus.


I don't need them to roll out a Yankees or Dodgers payroll every year. I just want them to act like they care. Attempt to get some bench depth when you have issues - not 2 months after when you're out of it and freefalling. Attempt to get a SP so there isn't a bullpen day every other day.......better yet, sign a vet starter in the offseason like everyone here said (or at least I did) to eat innings with the inevitable injuries to the pitching staff. Don't go into the season with glaring holes, and just patch it with a line of "we didn't expect to score runs"



That said, I don't think they're as bad as their record is - various stats point to this, and I think they've had incredibly bad luck in multiple ways, but management's seeming to just throw their hands up and accept it is pissing me off.

[lou]

This is where I am.

This offseason is do or die for them, honestly. If they have another middling offseason where they do next to nothing, I don't want to say I'll renounce my being a fan or anything, but I'll just frankly not care - if they don't, why should I? I'll still hope they do ok, but I'm not going to waste my time watching daily if they continually don't try.

I think someone said it here - they're basically Loria level cheapness with a little more international/draft spending/focus.


I don't need them to roll out a Yankees or Dodgers payroll every year. I just want them to act like they care. Attempt to get some bench depth when you have issues - not 2 months after when you're out of it and freefalling. Attempt to get a SP so there isn't a bullpen day every other day.......better yet, sign a vet starter in the offseason like everyone here said (or at least I did) to eat innings with the inevitable injuries to the pitching staff. Don't go into the season with glaring holes, and just patch it with a line of "we didn't expect to score runs"



That said, I don't think they're as bad as their record is - various stats point to this, and I think they've had incredibly bad luck in multiple ways, but management's seeming to just throw their hands up and accept it is pissing me off.

It's just an extremely bad year with 1 run games, injuries, randomness, and growing pains. Even with all of that, they should be a .500 team and that's how I think we should view them.

They really just need a platoon C, starting 2B/SS, starting CF, and some lefty relievers, and the team will look really solid on paper assuming they don't trade the Cooper/Berti/Rojas/Duvall group and they form the bottom of the roster.

If we're worried about being cheap, maybe they do in fact dip into the pitching and trade one or more to solve one of those issues above. Marte becomes a second solution with his trade return, they get the lefty relievers with Aguilar/Yimi, and then spend on "1" free agent to solve whatever the last issue is.

If doing that create club controlled options on 4 of the last 5 spots on the team, it's probably a $50m projected roster with them spending on "1" free agent on top. Or, if they trade Pablo (who hits arbitration), the roster projects closer to $45 million and the rotation is still Sandy, Rogers, Sixto, Hernandez, Cabrera/Thompson/Poteet/Neidert/Holloway. which is likely enough.

We can talk about how cheap they are, but even a huge name with 1 free agent and using pitching to get the rest, and we're under $70-75m. There is certainly a way to do this under $60 million if push comes to shove, with the caveat being seeing how everything works out and then really go for it at the deadline.

[sports24/7]

It's just an extremely bad year with 1 run games, injuries, randomness, and growing pains. Even with all of that, they should be a .500 team and that's how I think we should view them.

They really just need a platoon C, starting 2B/SS, starting CF, and some lefty relievers, and the team will look really solid on paper assuming they don't trade the Cooper/Berti/Rojas/Duvall group and they form the bottom of the roster.

If we're worried about being cheap, maybe they do in fact dip into the pitching and trade one or more to solve one of those issues above. Marte becomes a second solution with his trade return, they get the lefty relievers with Aguilar/Yimi, and then spend on "1" free agent to solve whatever the last issue is.

If doing that create club controlled options on 4 of the last 5 spots on the team, it's probably a $50m projected roster with them spending on "1" free agent on top. Or, if they trade Pablo (who hits arbitration), the roster projects closer to $45 million and the rotation is still Sandy, Rogers, Sixto, Hernandez, Cabrera/Thompson/Poteet/Neidert/Holloway. which is likely enough.

We can talk about how cheap they are, but even a huge name with 1 free agent and using pitching to get the rest, and we're under $70-75m. There is certainly a way to do this under $60 million if push comes to shove, with the caveat being seeing how everything works out and then really go for it at the deadline.

The thing is, if they’re a .500 team, and lose 2 of their 3 best hitters from that lineup (3 of their best 4 if Duvall leaves) without adding a real impact bat, how are they going to field a respectable lineup to improve upon being a .500 team?

You’re right about them spending on one big FA (maybe even two) and still being near the bottom of the league in spending, and that’s the frustrating part when you get the feeling they’re not going to even do that. Again, I’m not going to crucify them before the offseason because maybe they will. But there’s really no defending them if they don’t.

[Namaste]

i wasnt referring to net worth, i was referring to the offer's they had on the table.

Net worth is tied to offer on the table. Mas has way more disposable income than Sherman/Jeter. Samson is full of shit.

[Namaste]

And regardless of how much they have, it really looks like they don’t plan on spending even close to league average. They’re unwilling to make a competitive offer to probably by far the best available CF on the market after getting a new TV deal done, having Chen come off the books, and selling the stadium naming rights. Again, this all comes with the caveat that we don’t know what they’re going to actually spend this offseason. Maybe they’ll surprise us. If they don’t, however, they should be crucified by fans and the media for being more of the same as what we’ve had.

I agree 100%. Excuses will be made by the truly blind but if they don’t spend money in 2022 they never will,

[Nick]

Pensacola's rotation now includes 4 2020 draft picks now that Kyle Nicolas has been called up from Single-A.

A little surprised about Nicolas, because he had had some struggles.

Still that's absolutely crazy, especially considering they all made their professional debuts this year, because of the Covid year.

[lou]

The thing is, if they’re a .500 team, and lose 2 of their 3 best hitters from that lineup (3 of their best 4 if Duvall leaves) without adding a real impact bat, how are they going to field a respectable lineup to improve upon being a .500 team?

You’re right about them spending on one big FA (maybe even two) and still being near the bottom of the league in spending, and that’s the frustrating part when you get the feeling they’re not going to even do that. Again, I’m not going to crucify them before the offseason because maybe they will. But there’s really no defending them if they don’t.

Because Anderson, Jazz, Sanchez, and Lewin are going to play a lot more in 2021, and whatever you lose with Marte and Aguilar, is going to be offset radically with also replacing the 1000+ PA they gave to Dickerson, Brinson, Sierra, Leon, Devers, and Isan which amounts to negative production. They'll break even doing nothing for next year - they will improve if they add 3+ real bats, presumably at C, 2B/SS, and CF.

There is no defense for them not to go for it. The pitching is going to be here for 5+ years, and they have a few good offensive pieces despite what is happening. It's time to add the 3+ guys (call it 1500+ PA in new acquisitions) and go for it. You don't sit around 2 years and let Sandy and Pablo get really expensive, Rogers and Jazz hit arbitration, Anderson is a FA, etc. It's time to contend. They've been new ownership for a long time now, and done a generally great job besides the Yelich trade. It's time to believe in your team and go for it. Loria isn't the scapegoat anymore. They have to own all of this right now.

If they don't go for it, they really never will. They can't be in better shape with how the pitching and books look right now. They can operate as a bottom third payroll team for a few seasons and field a team that can get to 90 wins if they hit on the right last 3-4 guys they need. What more can they expect to accomplish?

[fish16]

Net worth is tied to offer on the table. Mas has way more disposable income than Sherman/Jeter. Samson is full of shit.

net worth has nothing to do with an offer on the table other than the ability to fulfill the terms of the offer.. I could be bidding on something and competing with Jeff fucking bezos, if i offer $5 and he offers $4, the net worth is irrelevent. The ability of the parties to value what they are bidding on would be at question, but net worth has nothing to do with whether sherman outbid mas, which of course he did, that's why they got the team. If you think Loria took the non highest bid I'm not sure what to tell you. Now, it's quite obvious Jeter and Sherman bid way more on this team than the team was worth, but that's a completely different conversation and has nothing to do with the relative net worth of mas and sherman.

[sports24/7]

Because Anderson, Jazz, Sanchez, and Lewin are going to play a lot more in 2021, and whatever you lose with Marte and Aguilar, is going to be offset radically with also replacing the 1000+ PA they gave to Dickerson, Brinson, Sierra, Leon, Devers, and Isan which amounts to negative production. They'll break even doing nothing for next year - they will improve if they add 3+ real bats, presumably at C, 2B/SS, and CF.

There is no defense for them not to go for it. The pitching is going to be here for 5+ years, and they have a few good offensive pieces despite what is happening. It's time to add the 3+ guys (call it 1500+ PA in new acquisitions) and go for it. You don't sit around 2 years and let Sandy and Pablo get really expensive, Rogers and Jazz hit arbitration, Anderson is a FA, etc. It's time to contend. They've been new ownership for a long time now, and done a generally great job besides the Yelich trade. It's time to believe in your team and go for it. Loria isn't the scapegoat anymore. They have to own all of this right now.

If they don't go for it, they really never will. They can't be in better shape with how the pitching and books look right now. They can operate as a bottom third payroll team for a few seasons and field a team that can get to 90 wins if they hit on the right last 3-4 guys they need. What more can they expect to accomplish?

Do we know that Snderson, Jazz, Sanchez, and Lewin will be better than, or even as good as Marte, Aguilar, 2021 Jazz, and potentially Duvall, though? I suppose it's reasonable, but if the production is similar, they're really not going anywhere. I'm also not sure we can guarantee not seeing a bunch of PAs by players like that. They've operated like they don't want to give up on Brinson and Sierra, and have shown a reluctance to admit they are wrong on players. If they don't spend much in the offseason, and simply add a glove first CF, that could be a downgrade from Dickerson with injuries (unfortunately some of the guys we'll be counting on have real injury history) leading to ABs for similarly bad players.

I agree completely with your second point. There are no good reasons for them not to go out and spend money to add to the lineup. But I'm still worried they won't. The Marte situation worries me about their future spending. I understand not wanting to pay him for 4 years, but they reportedly low balled him, and probably could have gotten him to stay on a fairly reasonable deal considering he wanted to be here. I'm not sure what the plan will be in CF as the FA crop looks bad. If I'm wrong, and they just don't want to get locked in to an older player, and plan to use that money, plus more elsewhere that's totally fine. That's why I say I'll reserve judgement until the offseason. I'm just worried about what's coming.

[Nick]

I never know what’s going on with our pitching. What happened to Thompson now?

[Madman81]

without a grip enhancer, bender has 0 idea where the ball is going

[Nick]

without a grip enhancer, bender has 0 idea where the ball is going

3 BBs since the new status quo too effect. I think he’s going to be ok.