Offseason Discussion - Positions Players/Bench

[lou]

#marlins, looking for hitter, still discussing hank blalock. #rays, who lost for damon, also in mix.
about 2 hours ago via mobile web

SI_JonHeyman
Jon Heyman

Not that this is anything new from yesterday, but this is just more than an isolated report now.

Really hope this happens. Gaby/Blalock platoon would be pretty legit. Especially for a #7 or # 8 hitter and your AL DH. We really need some left handed pop. I'm way into each getting 400 PA and keeping Morrison in AAA.

[Swifty]

Even if Logan outperforms Gaby this spring?

[Bobbob1313]

Even if Logan outperforms Gaby this spring?

Eh, Spring Training shouldn't be that important. Emilio Bonifacio outperformed Gaby last year in ST, but he didn't deserve to start over him. I know they are different scenarios, but not really. Logan is not Boner, but Boner and Gaby were in a competition just like Gaby and Logan are this year, and one outperformed the other.

The reasons to keep Logan down (fuck arbitration, how about the fact that he's never put together a full season of all of his skills?) outweigh ST performance, in my opinion.

I mean, if Logan rakes and looks like he's completely ready and Gaby looks completely lost, maybe you give it to Logan. But really, it's best to give him one more look in the upper minors to show his power is back after the wrist injury last year. Gaby is more ready to be who he is than Logan at this point, so there is much more to gain from keeping Logan down for a while. Chances are, Logan isn't going to dramatically outperform Gaby this year anyways.

[Swifty]

The thing is, most people thought Bonifacio was a steaming pile of dog crap, especially when you hold his offensive skill set against what's expected of a corner player. I don't think it's unfair to say that Logan and Gaby have (or should have) reasonably similar '10 expectations (partially a product of Gaby being that good of a prospect and Gaby not being that good of a prospect), and as such whoever shows "it" relative to the other player this spring should have the job; to me, that's the nature of competition. If Logan has to overcome the perception that he "needs" time at AAA, that's not fair to him or the competition.

[Bobbob1313]

Well, why does it have to be an open competition? Why does it have to be a fair competition? One guy has proven it at AAA, one guy hasn't. Hell, Gaby's numbers at AA were better than Logan's.

Ignoring arbitration, there is almost no reason to think Logan is more ready than Gaby is right now. There isn't really any reason to expect more from Logan this year than Gaby. Gaby is older, closer to his prime, and has better performance in the minors. He's closer to being who he will be.

Then, when you take into account developmental issues (if Logan fails at the major league level, he still has to go back to AAA anyways, and now you've got potential confidence issues), money and arbitration issues, and the fact that if we don't see what we have in Gaby now, we've wasted 5 years of his development and never saw what he has. He could become the next John Baker or Josh Willingham.

I don't think it is unfair to expect say that Gaby should be ahead for non-performance related issues. If we are to expect reasonably similar production from both, then regardless of what happens in the spring, the job should be Gaby's for everything else that has to be taken into account.

It can never hurt a guy like Logan Morrison to sit in AAA for a few months. Look at Coghlan. If anything, we should send him down and make him play LF every day. If Gaby fails, you can move Logan right into 1st. If somebody gets hurt, having him play more LF increases our flexibility. There is every reason to put Gaby at first, barring something crazy happening in ST.

[Swifty]

Two things: 1) Logan's coming off a serious injury, his numbers last year cannot be taken at face value. 2) Gaby's an old former PED abuser, to me, he's only as good as his most recent season.

You're acting like Gaby's a world beater or something. An .850something OPS as a 25 year old in AAA isn't horrible, but it's not something that makes me ready to anoint him the starter competition be damned. If Gaby has a huge spring, yeah, let him take over. Like I said in the other thread, if the two of them end up basically in the same spot, give it to Gaby since his "biological clock" is a more pressing issue than Logan's service clock.

If, however, all things are not equal, meaning Gaby struggles and Logan looks decent, I will be very upset if Gaby is given the job anyway. We haven't gone balls to the wall after Blalock, if you believe Ken Rosenthal we went after Delgado but that's a different story, so that tells me we're not looking at this as a platoon situation as much as Blalock/Gaby, in theory, makes sense. Therefore, I still do view this as a pure competition and I do hope that Logan, if he shows value, is rewarded with a starting job.

[Bobbob1313]

Two things: 1) Logan's coming off a serious injury, his numbers last year cannot be taken at face value.

But that's the whole point. You have to make sure Logan is able to put everything together. Spring Training, in my opinion, is not the place to do that. He hasn't put up an elite ISO since 2007, so let's see him do that in AAA. It's a hitter friendly league, let's see some power.

Gaby's not a world beater, no. But he's shown increased power over the last two seasons while maintaining his very good plate discipline. He basically does everything you would expect Logan to do next year, and there's all the other crap that goes into it.

If it's my decision, the only way I'm starting Logan from day 1 over Gaby is if Gaby just looks completely lost and Logan is crushing it. If Logan is only a little better than Gaby, Gaby should get the nod. ~50 PAs is not enough to offset all of the other factors that go into it, in my opinion.

[emkayseven]

2) Gaby's an old former PED abuser

did i miss something here? is this in reference to his UM suspension? was it ever said that was steroids? and if that's a reference to the suspension, christ, that was so long ago how does only his last season matter?

[Bobbob1313]

Don't the minor leagues have tougher steroid testing policies than the majors? It's unlikely he has been using in the minors without getting caught, seeing as every team seems to have one or two players caught every year.

[Party]

Pan con bistec and morro aren't banned by MiLB or MLB yet.

[lou]

Even if Logan outperforms Gaby this spring?

If we're assuming Blalock is signed, absolutely for Lefty/Righty reasons. Done right there.

But even if no Blalock/veteran, I agree with Bob basically across the board. Gaby has played more, played better, Logan is coming off injury, and never put together everything in the same season. I'd like to see Logan have a 200 PA stretch where he's walking, hitting an obscene amount of XBH, with a high average. He's done all of those over a variety of levels, but never all at once. I call that youthful inconsistency. While he's always been "real good" everywhere, he still is a work in progress and has not put it all together yet. Sure he could learn on the job, but it's not like you're going to get an extra 50 OPS points and positive defense out of Logan versus Gaby right now to make a huge production difference. And then after all of the age/playing time/performance issues, you have the 40 man roster where we'd have to bump a pitcher (I mean, it could be Penn or Jiminez so not that big of a deal, but it's still releasing someone), and you have the tried and true delaying arbitration argument. Which I think is enormous and can't just be brushed away.

Even if Logan destroys Spring training, and we'll say Gaby does "good," I think installing Gaby at 1B is the way to go because he'll be looking over his shoulder and real focused because he literally has 2 months to win 1B or get "Willie Aybar'd" on our bench for the next 4 years. And all that happens as a result is, Logan gets to rock AAA pitching and get his confidence real up, while hopefully playing some LF like Bob says (how about this, Gaby does well, MAYBIN sucks, and the team dumps Morrison into RF because they prefer his bat over Carroll/Petersen) to increase his flexibility. Let alone next year, if we dump Uggla, Gaby performs well, maybe Morrison settles into LF longterm. Who knows. I'd prefer this organization experiment with players playing out of position before the MLB level. They are so lucky with Coghlan.

I know Gaby doesn't have Logan's potential, but he's not a stiff. He could turn into a good bat to have around. Maybe longterm (even meaning this summer) he gets pushed out for the superior lefty prospect, but right now we need to see what we have with him and this is a great opportunity to do that, while giving Morrison a taste of the next level and delaying his 2013 arbitration. It's just a huge win across the board. Especially, if lefty Blalock comes to town.

Side note - I'm totally into player development of how the Phillies brought up Ryan Howard. He was INSTANTLY awesome. Howard was ready in 2005, but they kept him down for 250 or so PA, and then came up and the raking starting. Maybe he would have done that to start the year, but we don't know. All I know is, they handled him perfectly. Also, he was 25 with 2100+ PA in the minors. Logan is 22 with 1600ish PA. Just don't like this. This feels like Hermida, who should have gone to AAA in hindsight.

[Swifty]

did i miss something here? is this in reference to his UM suspension? was it ever said that was steroids? and if that's a reference to the suspension, christ, that was so long ago how does only his last season matter?

A very good friend of mine was on the UM team with Gaby, 100% it was steroids.

Also, I really do have a hard time saying Gaby outperformed Logan.

In Logan's first full season (more than 200 ABs) and onward he posted an OBP of at least .343 (which is also his lowest of those three seasons) and peaked at .411 (which was this past season, which you and bob, since you agree "across the board" call a down year).

Gaby's best 200 + AB OBP is .404 and that was as a 24 year old in AA, Logan surpassed that as a 21 year old in AA.

Now I'm not saying Logan is absolutely positively ready, in a perfect world he gets some AAA time, but I think it's completely reasonable to say they (G & L) are on the same playing field in terms of talent right now, and Logan's ceiling is so much exponentially higher that we're really selling ourselves short if Logan has to crank out a .500 spring average to win the job. His XBH ability disappeared last year, but his eye didn't. Give me that guy.

[Ramp]

yea, it is/was 100% steroids

swift is right about that

[lou]

Mildy unrelated, but

"I love it. I've always hit at the top of the order," Maybin said. "That's where I've always hit. I feel I can do a lot of things to help. The confidence I have with the bat, and I feel hitting behind Coghlan, that can help put pressure on defenses. We can create a lot of havoc with Hanley following."

The Marlins certainly are hopeful this is the season Maybin blossoms into a big league regular.

Maybin was called up in September, and he batted .293 with three home runs and 10 RBIs in the final weeks.

"Everybody's time comes at a different time," Maybin said. "Nobody can put a time limit on what you can do. I started playing within myself. I felt like good things happened when I played within myself. I felt good things happened when I was in Triple-A and into my callup last year.

"I got a lot of good reps in New Orleans. I think it was more of me playing within myself and getting confidence."

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/news/...=.jsp&c_id=fla

First of all, for the love of god bat him 2nd.

Second, the Marlins should be learning from Hermida and Maybin at this point, to keep the kid in the minors longer, even if it's just a half year, and don't rush them. Ease them into substantial playing time, and delay that arbitration as a result.

Need some Blalock and Gaby big time no matter how cool Logan is "going" to be.

[Todd]

Is Morrison capable of playing RF? His lateral movement and footwork has always been the biggest sticking point with his defense at 1B if memory serves. What about his arm?