2019-2020 Offseason Discussion

[tjfla]

Joe Frisaro
@JoeFrisaro
·
38m
As the #Marlins trim their roster down to 26, expect surprises. This team lost 105 last yr. Guys here last yr have no guarantees. Right field is wide open, as are bench and bullpen spots. Some NRIs will make it, some with options will be, and trades seem inevitable.

- - - - - - - - - -

NRI like Box and 1 of Northcraft,Eveld or Venditte. Also Kemp. 2 NRI RP are gonna make it

Trades they are looking at include Sierra/Urena/Cooper/Harold

NO 40 man spots open!!

We have talked to Oakland about there MIF. Issue is they are all out of options-Mateo/Barreto/Tony Kemp. Lot of teams are talking with Oakand about them as they have 3 or 4 and can keep 2 at most. Would u be cool with trading an OF(Harold or Coop) for Mateo and something then trade Sierra for ?

Mateo is a Denbo guy

[fish16]

This season should be about putting the best players on the field, not favoring one guy because we invested more in him. At some point, building a culture involves things like...winning as many games as possible. Miguel Rojas deserves to start.

Miguel Rojas deserves to be a utility guy. This idea that he is an everyday player is stupid. He has a 90 ops+ last year and a 79 ops+ the year before. He is a career 82 ops+ hitter. He’s got a great glove, use him to his strengths. Let him be a late inning defensive replacement. Especially when you have a guy in villar who would be in the top half of hitting shortstops in the league

[lou]

Joe Frisaro
@JoeFrisaro
·
38m
As the #Marlins trim their roster down to 26, expect surprises. This team lost 105 last yr. Guys here last yr have no guarantees. Right field is wide open, as are bench and bullpen spots. Some NRIs will make it, some with options will be, and trades seem inevitable.

- - - - - - - - - -

NRI like Box and 1 of Northcraft,Eveld or Venditte. Also Kemp. 2 NRI RP are gonna make it

Trades they are looking at include Sierra/Urena/Cooper/Harold

NO 40 man spots open!!

We have talked to Oakland about there MIF. Issue is they are all out of options-Mateo/Barreto/Tony Kemp. Lot of teams are talking with Oakand about them as they have 3 or 4 and can keep 2 at most. Would u be cool with trading an OF(Harold or Coop) for Mateo and something then trade Sierra for ?

Mateo is a Denbo guy

They should absolutely be trading for Mateo, although it's not going to be with the guys you're mentioning

[tjfla]

They should absolutely be trading for Mateo, although it's not going to be with the guys you're mentioning

Well as seen once u DFA a guy u can get them cheap-right now Mateo looks to be odd man out. Oakland is looking for controllable OF and Harold/Coop have options

Thing is alot of teams have called already

[lou]

Miguel Rojas deserves to be a utility guy. This idea that he is an everyday player is stupid. He has a 90 ops+ last year and a 79 ops+ the year before. He is a career 82 ops+ hitter. He’s got a great glove, use him to his strengths. Let him be a late inning defensive replacement. Especially when you have a guy in villar who would be in the top half of hitting shortstops in the league

And that counts? Rojas paced as over a 2 WAR player over 600/PA last year. He did that in 2017 too. And 2018 he had an absurd BABIP so he didn't do it then. He's a solid back end starter for any team, or a premium bench player on a contender.

After Villar, Anderson, and Dickerson, he's probably their 4th best position player unless one of the other guys explode, or Berti was in fact for real.

Villar should be at 2B or CF depending on how one feels about Isan. I'm giving Diaz 4+ starts a week at 2B and legitimate pinch hit/replacement time for when the lefties come out, but I wouldn't care if they did send him to AAA and Villar is the everyday 2B with god knows what happening in CF.

It'll work itself out, but Rojas playing 6 days a week is far from an issue

- - - - - - - - - -

Well as seen once u DFA a guy u can get them cheap-right now Mateo looks to be odd man out. Oakland is looking for controllable OF and Harold/Coop have options

Thing is alot of teams have called already

Cooper makes some sense if they feel they can handle CF with their other guys. Their roster is deep. You're going to have to be good to play for Oakland this year.

[tjfla]

And that counts? Rojas paced as over a 2 WAR player over 600/PA last year. He did that in 2017 too. And 2018 he had an absurd BABIP so he didn't do it then. He's a solid back end starter for any team, or a premium bench player on a contender.

After Villar, Anderson, and Dickerson, he's probably their 4th best position player unless one of the other guys explode, or Berti was in fact for real.

Villar should be at 2B or CF depending on how one feels about Isan. I'm giving Diaz 4+ starts a week at 2B and legitimate pinch hit/replacement time for when the lefties come out, but I wouldn't care if they did send him to AAA and Villar is the everyday 2B with god knows what happening in CF.

It'll work itself out, but Rojas playing 6 days a week is far from an issue

- - - - - - - - - -



Cooper makes some sense if they feel they can handle CF with their other guys. Their roster is deep. You're going to have to be good to play for Oakland this year.

Agreed why u think they are having issue with Mateo/Barreto/Kemp/Neuse right now

Could use a OF/1B/DH bat however

[fish16]

I’d take rojas behind cooper as well as possibly Alfaro. The guy is a glove only player. You can find time for him to play without starting g him everyday. 2 war/600 abs with no bat as a 30+ year old guy isn’t impressive. Get the most out of the ss position with villar everyday, move rojas around the diamond and give guys rest 3-4 times a week whether it’s 2b, 3b, ss, etc, and get more abs for guys like Ramirez and brinson by not clogging up an outfield spot with a non outfielder like villar.

You can get more or the same net war with villar at ss, brinson at cf, and Ramirez at corner outfielder AND you can evaluate young guys who might have a piece here in the future rather than Rojas at ss everyday, villar at a position he probably won’t be good at, and only one starting spot for two potential long term roster pieces

- - - - - - - - - -

They should be using Rojas like Marwin Gonzalez is used

- - - - - - - - - -

Neither are everyday players but they become valuable because of their versatility and their greatest possible
Value is extracted that way rather than by starting everyday at one position

[lou]

I’d take rojas behind cooper as well as possibly Alfaro. The guy is a glove only player. You can find time for him to play without starting g him everyday. 2 war/600 abs with no bat as a 30+ year old guy isn’t impressive. Get the most out of the ss position with villar everyday, move rojas around the diamond and give guys rest 3-4 times a week whether it’s 2b, 3b, ss, etc, and get more abs for guys like Ramirez and brinson by not clogging up an outfield spot with a non outfielder like villar.

You can get more or the same net war with villar at ss, brinson at cf, and Ramirez at corner outfielder AND you can evaluate young guys who might have a piece here in the future rather than Rojas at ss everyday, villar at a position he probably won’t be good at, and only one starting spot for two potential long term roster pieces

- - - - - - - - - -

They should be using Rojas like Marwin Gonzalez is used

- - - - - - - - - -

Neither are everyday players but they become valuable because of their versatility and their greatest possible
Value is extracted that way rather than by starting everyday at one position

What I enjoy most about you is, you make a really bad argument about playing lesser guys to evaluate them (when we've had a ton of evaluation), and then throw that gem at the end right after going on a war path that it is dumb to platoon two 2B that have very clear platoon splits... when doing so would only extract value out of them rather than having them start everyday.

You're just great sometimes

- - - - - - - - - -

Agreed why u think they are having issue with Mateo/Barreto/Kemp/Neuse right now

Could use a OF/1B/DH bat however

I'd love to move Cooper and likely an arm to them for Mateo.

Take a swing at the upside. Those are the kind of moves I'd like to see.

Then maybe Rojas would be playing a lot of 1B to REALLY freak fish16 out

[fish16]

What I enjoy most about you is, you make a really bad argument about playing lesser guys to evaluate them (when we've had a ton of evaluation), and then throw that gem at the end right after going on a war path that it is dumb to platoon two 2B that have very clear platoon splits... when doing so would only extract value out of them rather than having them start everyday.

You're just great sometimes

- - - - - - - - - -



I'd love to move Cooper and likely an arm to them for Mateo.

Take a swing at the upside. Those are the kind of moves I'd like to see.

Then maybe Rojas would be playing a lot of 1B to REALLY freak fish16 out

Probably because there’s a difference between getting the most playing time for your young top prospects and extracting the most value out of a veteran with no long term future here. It’s not mutually exclusive to want to give young guys everyday at bats AND try to get the most value per plate appearance out of a veteran. I can both want to give isan 600 abs while also trying to put Rojas in the best position to provide value.

Crazy concept, I know, but you can do everything possible to give young guys with potential the most playing time possible AND try to get value per appearance out of a veteran. Giving Rojas 3-4 starts per week at various positions is compatible with giving just about everyday playing time to young guys like brinson, isan, and Ramirez

- - - - - - - - - -

It’s really not that hard of a concept. Rojas’ bat has absolutely no value, perhaps even negative value. If you try to minimize his at bats while also maximizing the value that his glove provides you can get value out of him without creating a hole in the lineup every single day. Use him as a late inning defensive replacement and get him a few starts per week to spell guys at various positions and you are getting the most value per appearance from him while also opening up a lineup spot for 2 guys who actually might have a long term spot on the roster in brinson and ramirez

[lou]

Probably because there’s a difference between getting the most playing time for your young top prospects and extracting the most value out of a veteran with no long term future here. It’s not mutually exclusive to want to give young guys everyday at bats AND try to get the most value per plate appearance out of a veteran. I can both want to give isan 600 abs while also trying to put Rojas in the best position to provide value.

Crazy concept, I know, but you can do everything possible to give young guys with potential the most playing time possible AND try to get value per appearance out of a veteran. Giving Rojas 3-4 starts per week at various positions is compatible with giving just about everyday playing time to young guys like brinson, isan, and Ramirez

- - - - - - - - - -

It’s really not that hard of a concept. Rojas’ bat has absolutely no value, perhaps even negative value. If you try to minimize his at bats while also maximizing the value that his glove provides you can get value out of him without creating a hole in the lineup every single day. Use him as a late inning defensive replacement and get him a few starts per week to spell guys at various positions and you are getting the most value per appearance from him while also opening up a lineup spot for 2 guys who actually might have a long term spot on the roster in brinson and ramirez

You can be on an island if you want, but they have to develop a culture and that's not throwing out half the roster as a AAA team to try and identify one guy for 2022. They should be playing their best players, and they can reassess around the all-star break when trades inevitably happen. They finally have some real depth, and you want to bench better PA? Come on.

Also, just so you know, Rojas is controlled through 2022 so saying he has no long term future flies in the face of what could be a 3 year deal. And, it doesn't matter if Rojas is more of a fielder than a hitter. Production is production. He is arguably the 4th best position player on the team, and there is no argument one can make that he is below 8th.

Shielding Isan against "75-90" PA this year against some lefties to give Berti an extra 25+ starts (as that is what you are pissed about) is not going to hurt any longterm development.

Having Brinson be in AAA for 2 months is not going to hurt any longterm development.

Ramirez getting 400 versus 525 PA this year is not going to hurt any longterm development.

- - - - - - - - - -

If they earn more time? Great.

Don't be so quick to run off the veterans and let the kids get to the bigs on their own schedules. They actually have invested over $40 million into Cervelli, Aguilar, Villar, Rojas, Dickerson, and Joyce. Those guys are going to play. That is not "stop gap" money.

[fish16]

That is stop gap money when every single one of those guys are stop gaps for a year or two until the kids are ready.

Also, I’m not saying those plate appearances being missed for kids is messing with their development, I’m saying it’s completely pointless in a lost year anyways when the alternative is to give guys like berti, Rojas, or Joyce more plate appearances.

Brinson with his play this spring and no surefire starter for that 3rd outfield spot has earned a starting spot to start the year. No ones saying he is going to do anything differently but he has earned another opportunity and with no one blocking him he will get that opportunity as you will see within the next few weeks. A month or two of having him play everyday for one last time to prove something is the best course of action for the future of the organization, which is what they remain focused on, as they should this year with no chance of competing.

It’s a simple risk reward. The risk of playing brinson everyday for two months is about 0. The reward is he finally blossoms and you have another long term piece or a nice trade asset once the other outfielders are ready.

The risk of playing veterans is that you are taking away plate appearances for prospects. Isan ain’t gonna learn to magically hit lefties by never playing against them. Brinson isn’t gonna become a potential piece by mashing competition we’ve already seen him mash against. The reward of playing veterans is what exactly? Rojas continues to hit well below league average? Jon berti continues to hit 2% better than league average, something that I would be willing to bet he won’t match again this year just based on his entire track record throughout the minor leagues.

If this was a year we were possibly trying to contend, absolutely go with the surefire low ceiling vets. But that’s not the point of this year. The point of this year is to continue to evaluate talent for one last year before switching the mindset to competing next year potentially for the first time with this core. And you do that by giving every opportunity to your prospects and young players with potential to have a high ceiling and a shot to become a future long term piece as a starter.

[fish16]

Also, just so you know this idea that berti is some lefty masher is misguided unless you pull a lee stone and believe he magically began to know how to hit lefties last year. He is consistently been better vs righties each of the last 3 years including last year in aaa, 2018 in aa, 2017 in aaa he was awful against both sides.

I don’t think either are particularly special but if they want to keep Sean Rodriguez and can find a 40 man spot I wouldn’t be surprised if he makes the roster over berti given how awful berti has been in spring.

[rmc523]

What I enjoy most about you is, you make a really bad argument about playing lesser guys to evaluate them (when we've had a ton of evaluation), and then throw that gem at the end right after going on a war path that it is dumb to platoon two 2B that have very clear platoon splits... when doing so would only extract value out of them rather than having them start everyday.

You're just great sometimes

- - - - - - - - - -



I'd love to move Cooper and likely an arm to them for Mateo.

Take a swing at the upside. Those are the kind of moves I'd like to see.

Then maybe Rojas would be playing a lot of 1B to REALLY freak fish16 out

I like Cooper, but the guy can't stay healthy. He seems to be just one of those guys (like Stanton).

[fish16]

I like Cooper, but the guy can't stay healthy. He seems to be just one of those guys (like Stanton).

That seems kind of unfair. He hasn’t stayed healthy but it’s not like a bunch of different injuries. He’s been hit in the hand multiple times. That’s not really like Stanton where he’s hurting something new each time

[lou]

That is stop gap money when every single one of those guys are stop gaps for a year or two until the kids are ready.

Also, I’m not saying those plate appearances being missed for kids is messing with their development, I’m saying it’s completely pointless in a lost year anyways when the alternative is to give guys like berti, Rojas, or Joyce more plate appearances.

Brinson with his play this spring and no surefire starter for that 3rd outfield spot has earned a starting spot to start the year. No ones saying he is going to do anything differently but he has earned another opportunity and with no one blocking him he will get that opportunity as you will see within the next few weeks. A month or two of having him play everyday for one last time to prove something is the best course of action for the future of the organization, which is what they remain focused on, as they should this year with no chance of competing.

It’s a simple risk reward. The risk of playing brinson everyday for two months is about 0. The reward is he finally blossoms and you have another long term piece or a nice trade asset once the other outfielders are ready.

The risk of playing veterans is that you are taking away plate appearances for prospects. Isan ain’t gonna learn to magically hit lefties by never playing against them. Brinson isn’t gonna become a potential piece by mashing competition we’ve already seen him mash against. The reward of playing veterans is what exactly? Rojas continues to hit well below league average? Jon berti continues to hit 2% better than league average, something that I would be willing to bet he won’t match again this year just based on his entire track record throughout the minor leagues.

If this was a year we were possibly trying to contend, absolutely go with the surefire low ceiling vets. But that’s not the point of this year. The point of this year is to continue to evaluate talent for one last year before switching the mindset to competing next year potentially for the first time with this core. And you do that by giving every opportunity to your prospects and young players with potential to have a high ceiling and a shot to become a future long term piece as a starter.

It's not a lost year. It's building a culture. It's not even worth discussing the rest.

- - - - - - - - - -

Also, just so you know this idea that berti is some lefty masher is misguided unless you pull a lee stone and believe he magically began to know how to hit lefties last year. He is consistently been better vs righties each of the last 3 years including last year in aaa, 2018 in aa, 2017 in aaa he was awful against both sides.

I don’t think either are particularly special but if they want to keep Sean Rodriguez and can find a 40 man spot I wouldn’t be surprised if he makes the roster over berti given how awful berti has been in spring.

There have been a lot of swing change/launch angle success stories. You never know.

Berti had a 1.7 WAR in under 300 PA. He has earned April 2020, at a minimum. And if he sucks? It's an easy replace.