Marlins trade Justin Bour to Phillies

[lou]

I would like to think that the Marlins could get multiple contributors in a trade for Realmuto while his stock is up. Cumulatively, they might offer higher WAR at a bargain rate. Lord knows, the team needs help at almost every position.

1 - Did Schoop suck in 2017. Lower than a 1/4 BB/K rate, which by your standard, no player has ever been productive at such a level. So Schoop's 3.8 WAR sucks?

2 - Do you think home runs and RBI are the only thing that matters in baseball? Was Adam Dunn (462 HR/1168 RBI) better in baseball than Omar Vizquel (80 HR/951 RBI, in 4,000 more PA than Dunn)

3 - No one is arguing against trading Realmuto for a beneficial package, but at the same time, he's really good and if they opt to sign him, it's not a bad idea if the price is right. The only ways they fuck this up is if they trade him for non-top prospects or sign him to a silly $30 million/year price or something that would never happen. We're all on team "let's get better" (besides tanking the rest of this year for a draft pick, but that can be argued "lets get better" too).

4- And that swings back to Buster Posey is not replaceable and you're a moron if you think he is

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Suggestion: talk about the Marlins. This is a baseball forum/

So answers the questions/statements about Schoop, Dunn, and Posey and stop deflecting.

We want you to be the best Lee Stone you can be and right now, you are not.

[Lee Stone]

1 - Did Schoop suck in 2017. Lower than a 1/4 BB/K rate, which by your standard, no player has ever been productive at such a level. So Schoop's 3.8 WAR sucks?

2 - Do you think home runs and RBI are the only thing that matters in baseball? Was Adam Dunn (462 HR/1168 RBI) better in baseball than Omar Vizquel (80 HR/951 RBI, in 4,000 more PA than Dunn)

3 - No one is arguing against trading Realmuto for a beneficial package, but at the same time, he's really good and if they opt to sign him, it's not a bad idea if the price is right. The only ways they fuck this up is if they trade him for non-top prospects or sign him to a silly $30 million/year price or something that would never happen. We're all on team "let's get better" (besides tanking the rest of this year for a draft pick, but that can be argued "lets get better" too).

4- And that swings back to Buster Posey is not replaceable and you're a moron if you think he is

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So answers the questions/statements about Schoop, Dunn, and Posey and stop deflecting.

We want you to be the best Lee Stone you can be and right now, you are not.

We? Who the heck is we? Is there someone out there who shares your omniscience? Thank you to the poster who puts up the daily minor league summary. I enjoyed it.

[lou]

We? Who the heck is we? Is there someone out there who shares your omniscience? Thank you to the poster who puts up the daily minor league summary. I enjoyed it.

Pretty sure everyone wants you to stop saying absolutely ridiculous things

Still waiting for the answers.

1 - Did Schoop suck in 2017. Lower than a 1/4 BB/K rate, which by your standard, no player has ever been productive at such a level. So Schoop's 3.8 WAR sucks?

2 - Do you think home runs and RBI are the only thing that matters in baseball? Was Adam Dunn (462 HR/1168 RBI) better in baseball than Omar Vizquel (80 HR/951 RBI, in 4,000 more PA than Dunn)

[Finsanity]

Soto is great, everyone loves him. He may in fact have more value than Realmuto based on years of control and while Realmuto is amazing, if Soto was offered (a big if), and they turned it down, that may backfire if this season is for real (same with Robles if he becomes a cost-controlled juggernaut). But this isn't about Soto or anyone else.

That's the point I made to begin with. I said "If the rumors that Soto was offered for Realmuto were true, that was a mistake to turn down." Catchers are the equivalent of an NFL running back. It's nice to have a great one, but far from essential.

This team is pretty much completely devoid of talent. Or, if talented, like say Brinson... they can't hit. Soto would have been the better building block, imho.

[lou]

That's the point I made to begin with. I said "If the rumors that Soto was offered for Realmuto were true, that was a mistake to turn down." Catchers are the equivalent of an NFL running back. It's nice to have a great one, but far from essential.

This team is pretty much completely devoid of talent. Or, if talented, like say Brinson... they can't hit. Soto would have been the better building block, imho.

This is the problem. You take whatever production you can get, however you get it. You can make the argument no one is essential in MLB at any position as long as you get production somewhere else, in any way. I really want you guys to get this. If you have 8 Mike Trouts (at their respective position, hell maybe even not), you don't need a pitching staff. You're winning the world series with a AAA replacement level staff, bullpen, and bench. You're going to win 130 games and outscore people relentlessly even if you do everything else wrong and you sign current Heath Bell to be your current ace. 8 Andrelton Simmons (2017-2018 version) at their respective positions is a team that wins 100 games. You got to understand that. Home runs are not essential if you're demolishing people with defense. 8 1985-1989 Ozzie Smiths at their respective positions win the pennant.

Swinging back to catchers, if you have an awesome catcher producing, that isn't replaceable just because they are (1) a catcher or (2) because of low RBI totals. That's insane. Then, it's doubly scary to move them in their prime, because getting another catcher is like getting a good QB. Sure, you can win with Nick Foles (i.e. non essential) but it's a lot fucking easier to win with Tom Brady and finding cheaper guys, at more plentiful positions, around him (i.e. 1B/OF).

This is not a hard black and white line about catchers, and you need to accept that Buster Posey the last few years is not replaceable. There is a reason they won 3 world series.

[Nick]

So in conclusion:

Soto is very good. Better than Realmuto. This is true.

Soto was definitely never on the table after his meteoric rise at the beginning of the season. If he was offered it would have been back in the Winter and we have no indication one way or another if that was the case.

So now that that's off the table, we can maybe hear some different talking points.

[gustavopim]

Appreciate your optimism, but I can't think of any successful franchises that were built around a catcher. Not ever.

Yogi Berra and the Yankees in the 40s/50s. For most of the years he was the veteran

[Nick]

I think Perez and Morgan and Foster and Rose had some input.

So what's your argument? That there has never been a successful franchise built around a catcher? Because that is clearly wrong. Or is your argument that there's never been a successful franchise where your only decent player is a catcher, which is pretty much what the Marlins are now. I don't think you're going to get any argument from anybody that Realmuto can't be your only star and be successful, but I think what I and others are arguing is that he can be a huge piece of the puzzle and fill a hole that's particularly hard to fill in today's game. If you're supremely confident you can fill 2-3 key holes in a Realmuto trade, then you make that trade. I'm just not sure that trade is out there. So re-signing J.T. may be the best way of maximizing value.

[Finsanity]

So in conclusion:

Soto is very good. Better than Realmuto. This is true.

Soto was definitely never on the table after his meteoric rise at the beginning of the season. If he was offered it would have been back in the Winter and we have no indication one way or another if that was the case.

So now that that's off the table, we can maybe hear some different talking points.

Summed up nicely. I did preface my original by saying "if" he was offered. Heck, Michael Hill probably doesn't even know if he were offered... he was probably too busy seeing what the Twins wanted for Rodney.

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So what's your argument? That there has never been a successful franchise built around a catcher? Because that is clearly wrong. Or is your argument that there's never been a successful franchise where your only decent player is a catcher, which is pretty much what the Marlins are now.

I believe the argument is given the injury-risk to catcher, and by the nature of the position, the general wear that hurts bottom line offensive statistics... is that franchises aren't built around the position with the same confidence you can with other positions.

[lou]

I believe the argument is given the injury-risk to catcher, and by the nature of the position, the general wear that hurts bottom line offensive statistics... is that franchises aren't built around the position with the same confidence you can with other positions.

This is a reasonable comment and no one will generally disagree with you. Just compare this to saying a 4-5+ WAR catcher like Buster who has given his franchise $250+ million in surplus value is replaceable. These things are not exclusive.

That being said, if you think catcher wear and tear hurts Realmuto's long term appeal, cool. I get it. I would say he is not a prototypical catcher given his build and should age well for who he is for a 5 year deal (ages 28-32), but I get cashing out may be more valuable. So does everyone, which is why I see the general consensus of, sign him to a reasonable deal (5/$80-90) or trade him for the motherload, are both options everyone wouldn't disapprove of. It's the blanket statements of "catchers are non-essential" which is crazy. Hope this ends this loop because everyone is on the same page if this is your comment and not an insane Buster is replaceable, no team is built around a catcher, etc. narrative. Those are clearly fake news.

[Erick]

Appreciate your optimism, but I can't think of any successful franchises that were built around a catcher. Not ever.

You’ve been bringing up Buster Posey all thread, but you can’t think of one. You’re the best.

[tjfla]

So in conclusion:

Soto is very good. Better than Realmuto. This is true.

Soto was definitely never on the table after his meteoric rise at the beginning of the season. If he was offered it would have been back in the Winter and we have no indication one way or another if that was the case.

So now that that's off the table, we can maybe hear some different talking points.

Soto was NEVER offered. Washington called asked what we wanted for JT in Dec(when he made trade request)-we said Robles they said NO. Then said how about Soto(They said NO) and this board and the other 100 Marlins fans said Hell NO Soto sucks and we need to see him first because he was hurt LY and all. The Marlins FO thought he was a Top 5 Prospect in baseball

Washington's best offer before July was Kieboom and others. In July they offered Robles and more which we said NO. Robles was actually offered 2 times in July and we said NO 2 times

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Next step in JT/Marlins saga is Oct/Nov when we offer an extension. If he says YES then he is here for next 5/6 years. If he says NO then Winter Meetings it will be Wash/Hou/Col/Ariz/Oak and few others fighting for him

[Nick]

and this board and the other 100 Marlins fans said Hell NO Soto sucks and we need to see him first because he was hurt LY and all. The Marlins FO thought he was a Top 5 Prospect in baseball

I don't understand why you do this, no one said he sucks. We've been ripping on Lee Stone for his love for small sample size. Soto had 86 ABs above Short-Season ball. That's pretty much the definition of a small sample size. So anyone with skepticism over Soto in the Winter I would say is completely justified.

[Finsanity]

You’ve been bringing up Buster Posey all thread, but you can’t think of one. You’re the best.

No he didn't, I did. If you think Posey is worth $22M this year and the next three, that's your bad.

[fish16]

I don't understand why you do this, no one said he sucks. We've been ripping on Lee Stone for his love for small sample size. Soto had 86 ABs above Short-Season ball. That's pretty much the definition of a small sample size. So anyone with skepticism over Soto in the Winter I would say is completely justified.

I was probably the biggest advocate for getting Soto over the winter based on his limited stats and even i can recognize how limited those stats truly were prior to this year.