Marlins trade Justin Bour to Phillies

[lou]

Appreciate your optimism, but I can't think of any successful franchises that were built around a catcher. Not ever.

San Francisco Giants certainly have sucked with Buster.

You can't think of a lot of things - like when you said no good baseball player has ever posted a 1/4 BB/K rate at any level, and then ignored me when 4 Orioles did it in 2017, including Schoop. Never forget.

[fish16]

Definitely. Marlins saw it as "Why keep Yelich for 3 more years of not competing when we can start building our future pieces now?". I get that point of view as well. This year could end up being a positive learning experience for Brinson. Getting the #13 overall prospect in baseball was not a bad value in any way.

Ya, I still have very high hopes for Brinson. Hopefully he can continue to improve on what he was doing before he got hurt and hopefully we stop with this nonsense of batting him 8th. The rest of the year (and next year for that matter as well) needs to be all about doing the best we can to help develop these players, not rushing them to the big leagues for no reason and then putting them in positions to fail.

[Nick]

I mean, it's pretty established Lee's memory only goes back about a month, so it's understandable that he'd forget about the Giants 3 World Series' in the past decade. How about the Big Red Machine, a team that dominated an entire decade. Who was their best player?

[Lee Stone]

San Francisco Giants certainly have sucked with Buster.

You can't think of a lot of things - like when you said no good baseball player has ever posted a 1/4 BB/K rate at any level, and then ignored me when 4 Orioles did it in 2017, including Schoop. Never forget.

Posey is a great example. He was great, certainly better than Realmuto, through age 29. How do you think the Giants are going to feel about paying him over $20M a year through his age 34 year? Piss poor. That's the entire point.

[Nick]

Posey is a great example. He was great, certainly better than Realmuto, through age 29. How do you think the Giants are going to feel about paying him over $20M a year through his age 34 year? Piss poor. That's the entire point.

I think they're feeling pretty good about it.

Also, I don't think it's necessary to give Realmuto an 8-year contract.

[rmc523]

Marlins succumbed to Yelich and his agent being unhappy and wanting out. Marlins did sell quick on Yelich and even if Brinson pans out probably sold too fast.

Oh I know why. It'll just be interesting to see how that one turns out.

[Lee Stone]

I mean, it's pretty established Lee's memory only goes back about a month, so it's understandable that he'd forget about the Giants 3 World Series' in the past decade. How about the Big Red Machine, a team that dominated an entire decade. Who was their best player?

As I recall, Bench hit almost 400 HR, most by the time he was 29. JT has knocked out what ... fifty or so?

[lou]

Posey is a great example. He was great, certainly better than Realmuto, through age 29. How do you think the Giants are going to feel about paying him over $20M a year through his age 34 year? Piss poor. That's the entire point.

1 - Did Schoop suck in 2017. Lower than a 1/4 BB/K rate, which by your standard, no player has ever been productive at such a level. So Schoop's 3.8 WAR sucks right?

2 - The Giants won 3 world series and have profited +$250 million with Buster so far. I think they are QUITE content with Buster Posey. Who has also produced around 11 WAR 2016-2018 (extrapolating ROS) for around $62 million which is no where near bad value. He's pretty safe moving forward and the Giants will be thrilled when he is wearing their gap in Cooperstown.

3 - Are you advocating to never sign a player for their prime years, because the last year or two in a longterm deal might be a little lower in production? So the Giants should have traded Buster Posey at 28 and gotten prospects for him who are cheaper because Buster might be a burden for the last year in his deal? You don't put any weight on player's actually producing and creating a contending window for a team, and you are solely looking for only cheap labor and maximizing every single year of a player's career?

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I think they're feeling pretty good about it.

Also, I don't think it's necessary to give Realmuto an 8-year contract.

Nope 5 years max. Which he should take 2 years from FA, assuming numbers right.

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As I recall, Bench hit almost 400 HR, most by the time he was 29. JT has knocked out what ... fifty or so?

So it's OK to sign the best catcher of baseball longterm because he hits HR, but not Buster Posey because he doesn't get to 100 RBI routinely. Is that accurate?

[dim]

As I recall, Bench hit almost 400 HR, most by the time he was 29. JT has knocked out what ... fifty or so?

TROOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Not cool you got lou suckered in. Dude just wants you informed and doesn't see it.

[Nick]

As I recall, Bench hit almost 400 HR, most by the time he was 29. JT has knocked out what ... fifty or so?

Appreciate your optimism, but I can't think of any successful franchises that were built around a catcher. Not ever.

I'll let you work out how these two statements are related.

[Lee Stone]

1 - Did Schoop suck in 2017. Lower than a 1/4 BB/K rate, which by your standard, no player has ever been productive at such a level. So Schoop's 3.8 WAR sucks right?

2 - The Giants won 3 world series and have profited +$250 million with Buster so far. I think they are QUITE content with Buster Posey. Who has also produced around 11 WAR 2016-2018 (extrapolating ROS) for around $62 million which is no where near bad value. He's pretty safe moving forward and the Giants will be thrilled when he is wearing their gap in Cooperstown.

3 - Are you advocating to never sign a player for their prime years, because the last year or two in a longterm deal might be a little lower in production? So the Giants should have traded Buster Posey at 28 and gotten prospects for him who are cheaper because Buster might be a burden for the last year in his deal? You don't put any weight on player's actually producing and creating a contending window for a team, and you are solely looking for only cheap labor and maximizing every single year of a player's career?

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Nope 5 years max. Which he should take 2 years from FA, assuming numbers right.

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So it's OK to sign the best catcher of baseball longterm because he hits HR, but not Buster Posey because he doesn't get to 100 RBI routinely. Is that accurate?

Realmuto projects to what, 20 HR and 80 RBI this season? Something like the Dodger Grandal? You'd evidently give him five years and $100M (close?) That's 20-25% of team payroll over that period I surmise. I wouldn't do that. That pretty much sums up the debate.

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I'll let you work out how these two statements are related.

I think Perez and Morgan and Foster and Rose had some input.

[fish16]

Realmuto projects to what, 20 HR and 80 RBI this season? Something like the Dodger Grandal? You'd evidently give him five years and $100M (close?) That's 20-25% of team payroll over that period I surmise. I wouldn't do that. That pretty much sums up the debate.

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I think Perez and Morgan and Foster and Rose had some input.

That is exactly what I said you would do. When called out about how wrong you are, you would go to the argument of "oh well there are other good players on his team" as if there isnt more than 1 great player on every championship level team.

[lou]

Realmuto projects to what, 20 HR and 80 RBI this season? Something like the Dodger Grandal? You'd evidently give him five years and $100M (close?) That's 20-25% of team payroll over that period I surmise. I wouldn't do that. That pretty much sums up the debate.

1 - Did Schoop suck in 2017. Lower than a 1/4 BB/K rate, which by your standard, no player has ever been productive at such a level. So Schoop's 3.8 WAR sucks?

2: Realmuto 16-18 WAR (using FG ROS to extrapolate): 11.9 WAR, age 25-27 seasons
Grandal 16-18 WAR (same): 8.9 WAR, his age 27-29 seasons

So, Grandal does not get the same deal. He is older, not as good, and all three of Realmuto's seasons are better than any single season of Grandal. Grandal is good though. He's worth a 3-4 year deal.

BTW, I would say 5/$84+ for Realmuto, and maybe commit to a 6th to get it over $100. That's something like $7-$11-$22-$22-$22 and very fair considering comps. If Realmuto is a $2+ WAR player moving forward, the Marlins would break even, let alone if he keeps at this 3.5+ rate and even better 4.5+ from this year.

3 - Do you think home runs and RBI are the only thing that matters in baseball? Was Adam Dunn (462 HR/1168 RBI) better in baseball than Omar Vizquel (80 HR/951 RBI, in 4,000 more PA than Dunn)

[Finsanity]

Lee you mean well, but your method of evaluating players is 1980's-esque and absolutely infuriating given the ease in which you can get caught up to speed with how to more accurately evaluate players with the information at your disposal on the internet.

Yeah... even the guys who publish WAR don't put the credence into it that you seem to.

[Lee Stone]

Lee, considering that you've previously said on this message board that you're from Alaska, and that your real name is Lee Stoops, and given that Finsanity's IP address traces to Kotzebue, AK, and the internet says that Lee Stoops has addresses in Delray Beach and Kotzebue, AK, I'm going to let you explain how there are two Marlins fans in Kotzebue, Alaska, a city of 3,200 people.

Then let me know which account you'd like to keep going forward.

Answered in another post. Finsanity is my son Jake, a school teacher. For years he has spent summers with his boys with me in Delray Beach. He LOVES the Marlins and is far more knowledeable about the game than I.

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1 - Did Schoop suck in 2017. Lower than a 1/4 BB/K rate, which by your standard, no player has ever been productive at such a level. So Schoop's 3.8 WAR sucks?

2: Realmuto 16-18 WAR (using FG ROS to extrapolate): 11.9 WAR, age 25-27 seasons
Grandal 16-18 WAR (same): 8.9 WAR, his age 27-29 seasons

So, Grandal does not get the same deal. He is older, not as good, and all three of Realmuto's seasons are better than any single season of Grandal. Grandal is good though. He's worth a 3-4 year deal.

BTW, I would say 5/$84+ for Realmuto, and maybe commit to a 6th to get it over $100. That's something like $7-$11-$22-$22-$22 and very fair considering comps. If Realmuto is a $2+ WAR player moving forward, the Marlins would break even, let alone if he keeps at this 3.5+ rate and even better 4.5+ from this year.

3 - Do you think home runs and RBI are the only thing that matters in baseball? Was Adam Dunn (462 HR/1168 RBI) better in baseball than Omar Vizquel (80 HR/951 RBI, in 4,000 more PA than Dunn)

I would like to think that the Marlins could get multiple contributors in a trade for Realmuto while his stock is up. Cumulatively, they might offer higher WAR at a bargain rate. Lord knows, the team needs help at almost every position.

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That is exactly what I said you would do. When called out about how wrong you are, you would go to the argument of "oh well there are other good players on his team" as if there isnt more than 1 great player on every championship level team.

Suggestion: talk about the Marlins. This is a baseball forum/