Marlins trade Justin Bour to Phillies

[Finsanity]

I think you have serious hindsight bias based on how good Soto has been so far too - of course a young 4+ WAR player is better than an older 4+ WAR player with 2 years of control - but we also don't know how good Soto will be. He's definitely a centerpiece for Realmuto though, who is a 3 year proven commodity at a position where it's tough to get production from so you can really become great loading up on 1B/LF types for cheap who are much more common and productive. You would never bet landing Suzuki/Flowers versus common 1B/LF types.

No one also argues catchers aren't more injury prone so you're also creating your own hysteria. You said, Buster Posey is replaceable which is just fucking stupid at what he has done.

Does Realmuto strike you as a middle of the order guy? Me neither. When he hits 3/4th in the lineup, that gives the Marlins arguably the worst "clean-up" 3/4 hitter in baseball (I get that "clean-up" is an archaic term these days, but you see my point). He's a terrific athlete for any position - so it's a great luxury to have that athleticism behind the plate. But he doesn't strike me as a run producer long-term. He's a very nice complimentary offensive player, throws well and if he ever learns to put his chest on a ball in the dirt, will be a plus defensively.

Soto is that middle of the order guy. Small sample size, sure... But he's got a great eye/patience at the plate. That's not going to get worse in time. His power will increase. He's the building block this team desperately needs. And before you say it's much easier to come by OF than C... that certainly hasn't been the case with the Marlins. You see the rabble we've put in the OF. It's so bad, that Ortega steps in, with no pedigree... and is immediately our best OF. Those are the positions you need production from to win games.

[Nick]

I don't think we've ever been given any indication that Soto was on the table for Realmuto. Robles yes, but not until the last couple of days before the Trade Deadline.

[Lee Stone]

I don't think we've ever been given any indication that Soto was on the table for Realmuto. Robles yes, but not until the last couple of days before the Trade Deadline.

Even then it was only third party rumors as far as I know. I don't believe that Robles or Soto were ever on the Nats trade table. Curiously, Robles barely has a hit since the deadline. He's 5 for his last 33 with one rbi. The other mentioned name, Carter Kieboom, showed some Acuna-like results last night in AA. 4-5, 2 HR. I'd love a SS who could hit.

Agree with Finsanity's lukewarm assessment of JT. There was no mad scramble to acquire him. Also agree on Ortega. His every movement on the field shouts "Ballplayer!"

[fish16]

Lee you mean well, but your method of evaluating players is 1980's-esque and absolutely infuriating given the ease in which you can get caught up to speed with how to more accurately evaluate players with the information at your disposal on the internet.

[dim]

I don't think we've ever been given any indication that Soto was on the table for Realmuto. Robles yes, but not until the last couple of days before the Trade Deadline.

Based on conversations it did seem like Soto was originally on the table because Robles was the higher rated prospect. That said the whole trade conversation has been held up because the Nats REALLY didn't want to give up either guy, but they REALLY wanted Realmuto as well.

And as lou said, nobody in the world saw Soto being the way he's been this year. The expectation is Robles would've been the guy to come in and do something like that. Soto is 19 years old for fucks sakes. If he was putting these numbers up in Greensboro for us I'd be calling him a future star. Stanton was doing that in Jupiter/Jacksonville at that age for us. Soto is a freak of nature.

[Lee Stone]

Lee you mean well, but your method of evaluating players is 1980's-esque and absolutely infuriating given the ease in which you can get caught up to speed with how to more accurately evaluate players with the information at your disposal on the internet.

You can't be infuriated by what you don't read, so don't read anything I post. Simple solution. P.S. 80's-esque would be modern to me. I was born in 1950.

[dim]

And Realmuto is a player you build a franchise around. Think Jose Altuve with the Astros when the team was bad. If you don't have to trade a guy like Realmuto then you really shouldn't. Him being a catcher just makes it all that much sweeter.

EDIT: Also should be brought up Realmuto wasn't as good as he has become when the original rumors of talks happened this offseason. Soto was an 18 year old, high potential minor leaguer and Realmuto was coming off just his 2nd consecutive above average season. This season is the one that turned him from possible top 10 catcher in baseball to legitimate discussion for best catcher in baseball. Both players for the Marlins and Nats worked themselves out of this possible trade.

[Lee Stone]

And Realmuto is a player you build a franchise around. Think Jose Altuve with the Astros when the team was bad. If you don't have to trade a guy like Realmuto then you really shouldn't. Him being a catcher just makes it all that much sweeter.

EDIT: Also should be brought up Realmuto wasn't as good as he has become when the original rumors of talks happened this offseason. Soto was an 18 year old, high potential minor leaguer and Realmuto was coming off just his 2nd consecutive above average season. This season is the one that turned him from possible top 10 catcher in baseball to legitimate discussion for best catcher in baseball. Both players for the Marlins and Nats worked themselves out of this possible trade.

Appreciate your optimism, but I can't think of any successful franchises that were built around a catcher. Not ever.

[fish16]

Appreciate your optimism, but I can't think of any successful franchises that were built around a catcher. Not ever.

The giants won 3 world series in 6 years with buster posey as the building block. Youre now gonna proceed to say that Bumgarner was the building block, to which I will tell you that no individual player is ever the sole reason for his teams success, and you should aim to find great players at every position, but specifically at catcher where the ability of a great player is even more magnified by the sheer lack of great catchers in the game.

[rmc523]

And Realmuto is a player you build a franchise around. Think Jose Altuve with the Astros when the team was bad. If you don't have to trade a guy like Realmuto then you really shouldn't. Him being a catcher just makes it all that much sweeter.

EDIT: Also should be brought up Realmuto wasn't as good as he has become when the original rumors of talks happened this offseason. Soto was an 18 year old, high potential minor leaguer and Realmuto was coming off just his 2nd consecutive above average season. This season is the one that turned him from possible top 10 catcher in baseball to legitimate discussion for best catcher in baseball. Both players for the Marlins and Nats worked themselves out of this possible trade.

Same goes for Yelich.....hopefully that deal works out.

[dim]

Not to mention Piazza took the Mets to the World Series in '00 and Gary Carter in '86. Fuck the Marlins were led by Pudge in '03 lol (not a long term build but he was clearly the lead in '03).

[lou]

Does Realmuto strike you as a middle of the order guy? Me neither. When he hits 3/4th in the lineup, that gives the Marlins arguably the worst "clean-up" 3/4 hitter in baseball (I get that "clean-up" is an archaic term these days, but you see my point). He's a terrific athlete for any position - so it's a great luxury to have that athleticism behind the plate. But he doesn't strike me as a run producer long-term. He's a very nice complimentary offensive player, throws well and if he ever learns to put his chest on a ball in the dirt, will be a plus defensively.

Soto is that middle of the order guy. Small sample size, sure... But he's got a great eye/patience at the plate. That's not going to get worse in time. His power will increase. He's the building block this team desperately needs. And before you say it's much easier to come by OF than C... that certainly hasn't been the case with the Marlins. You see the rabble we've put in the OF. It's so bad, that Ortega steps in, with no pedigree... and is immediately our best OF. Those are the positions you need production from to win games.

I see your point in that the concept of a clean up hitter is archaic and you shouldn't be trying to make points like that. Valuing players by lineup position is atrocious.

How you should frame this question is, do I think Realmuto is a top 3 player on a contending ball club. Considering he is about 30th in overall production this year among all players, the answer is YES. Yes Realmuto is a centerpiece player you build around and I don't practically care where he hits or how many RBIs he has. He wins games. You're having a major problem here in what a run-producer is. Knocking in runs is only part of what a player brings to the table. What about OBP? What about defense? What about base running? What about your positional scarcity versus teams throwing out literally awful catchers? The overall profile of Realmuto is "superstar in his prime" and there really isn't an argument against that based on a now 3 year baseline, a spike this year, his position, and he's 27. He is "complimentary" as a ball player in the same way Stanton is "complimentary" to Judge and Bauer is "complimentary" to Kluber. That's who Realmuto is - a star baseball player who gets limited press because he is in Miami. He'd be the second coming if in Boston this year.

Also, there is no "position" you need to win games. You get productive players however they are productive. If the Marlins had 8 Chapmans and Millers in the bullpen, they would be a great team no matter what they are throwing in the rotation. I would LOVE a 15+ WAR bullpen. That team would be awesome.

Soto is great, everyone loves him. He may in fact have more value than Realmuto based on years of control and while Realmuto is amazing, if Soto was offered (a big if), and they turned it down, that may backfire if this season is for real (same with Robles if he becomes a cost-controlled juggernaut). But this isn't about Soto or anyone else.

This is about you saying Buster and Y. Molina are replaceable because they are catchers and/or have low RBIs, when they have given their franchises over $250 million in surplus value based on their production and contracts. They are the opposite of replaceable and you need to understand that, or you can continue to believe Jorge Cantu and his 195 RBI were special in 08-09.

[dim]

Same goes for Yelich.....hopefully that deal works out.

Marlins succumbed to Yelich and his agent being unhappy and wanting out. Marlins did sell quick on Yelich and even if Brinson pans out probably sold too fast.

[fish16]

Marlins succumbed to Yelich and his agent being unhappy and wanting out. Marlins did sell quick on Yelich and even if Brinson pans out probably sold too fast.

looking back, yes, but I think if 3/4 players for us work out long term then it was worth it given the lack of depth we have in our system. We're still a few years away from being able to judge the trade, but I think it is one of the few major trades that has the potential to look great on both sides long term.

[dim]

Definitely. Marlins saw it as "Why keep Yelich for 3 more years of not competing when we can start building our future pieces now?". I get that point of view as well. This year could end up being a positive learning experience for Brinson. Getting the #13 overall prospect in baseball was not a bad value in any way.