Miami Marlins 2016 Offseason Discussion Thread

[fish16]

The Chapman thing wasn't gonna happen. The only reason was Jeff wanted him. It was a done deal he was headed back to NYY

As for today,I think the FO was so busy yesterday they forgot the Rule 5 Draft was today and didn't protect anyone

Lost
Jose Adames
Sean Donatello
Matt Ramsey

Picked
OF Cal Towey
LHP Nick Maronde

Ramsey actually had a major league future before he got hurt. I forgot which rays deal he was involved in but i remember him coming from the rays and putting up solid MILB numbers for us before getting hurt.

[Erick]

I completely agree, and i'm not sitting here arguing that Jansen is not worth the money he is going to get, i'm saying that relievers are the easiest thing to find in baseball, and even lesser relievers were traded at this past years deadline for good prospects, if that is the route we want to go.

My opinion would be completely different if he didnt cost a first round pick or if this team was a contender or a piece away from being a contender. But with Jose's death, we should not be focusing on trying to do what we can to piece together a .500 team this year. Every move should be with the future in mind and with the focus of trying to acquire as much good young talent as possible and rebulding the farm system, especially as a small market team.

The 1st round pick doesn't bother me, and I think this team has a shot to make the playoffs by beefing up the bullpen. Our window to be good is actually closing. I think it's a good time to go all-in. There's no farm system anyway. The future is already in the big leagues so lets try our best to surround them with good talent.

[fish16]

The 1st round pick doesn't bother me, and I think this team has a shot to make the playoffs by beefing up the bullpen. Our window to be good is actually closing. I think it's a good time to go all-in. There's no farm system anyway. The future is already in the big leagues so lets try our best to surround them with good talent.

Then we just have a difference of opinion on how good the current team is. If i thought we were anywhere close to being a playoff team, i'm all for it, first round picks are a shot in the dark. But i just dont think we are all that close. IF jose were still here, my opinion would be completely different, but I just dont think we are anywhere close rotation wise to be anywhere close to the playoffs. Not saying we are Braves bad, but we are closer to that then the playoffs IMO, and i guess that is why our opinion on the Jansen differs.

I'd just like to see a consistent plan and stick to it for years rather than consistent changing plans due to Lorias whims.

[tjfla]

Ramsey actually had a major league future before he got hurt. I forgot which rays deal he was involved in but i remember him coming from the rays and putting up solid MILB numbers for us before getting hurt.

Ya hurt his back and was never the same. Was a classic Fish deal-we sent them IFA cash

All 3 arms we lost were bad at all. Adames is wild but throws 100 and Donatello was the AA Closer

[Erick]

Then we just have a difference of opinion on how good the current team is. If i thought we were anywhere close to being a playoff team, i'm all for it, first round picks are a shot in the dark. But i just dont think we are all that close. IF jose were still here, my opinion would be completely different, but I just dont think we are anywhere close rotation wise to be anywhere close to the playoffs. Not saying we are Braves bad, but we are closer to that then the playoffs IMO, and i guess that is why our opinion on the Jansen differs.

I'd just like to see a consistent plan and stick to it for years rather than consistent changing plans due to Lorias whims.

I feel like they definitely need some things to go right.
However, I think we'd be more optimistic about the team if Volquez and Chen weren't coming off terrible years. Those two guys have also had good years. Conley seems like a solid SP.

Hopefully it turns out to be an average rotation and an elite bullpen would help out with that. Mattingly should also get creative with his pen usage if Jansen signs imo.

I also agree with the front office in that I think this offense should be better than 27th in runs scored. Pending relatively good health, I think it could be a league average offense at least.

[tjfla]

Then we just have a difference of opinion on how good the current team is. If i thought we were anywhere close to being a playoff team, i'm all for it, first round picks are a shot in the dark. But i just dont think we are all that close. IF jose were still here, my opinion would be completely different, but I just dont think we are anywhere close rotation wise to be anywhere close to the playoffs. Not saying we are Braves bad, but we are closer to that then the playoffs IMO, and i guess that is why our opinion on the Jansen differs.

I'd just like to see a consistent plan and stick to it for years rather than consistent changing plans due to Lorias whims.

People forget we are likely getting a Comp Pick which means we will lose #13 now and get like #35. 1st Rd picks are crap shoots-we are the best example of that

As for Jansen I would prefer the Ziegler and Uehara/Tazawa then sign a bat plan myself BUT I dont understand how people can complain about them trying to improve the team and spend cash by signing Jansen???

So your plan is keep the current team and just cry all season on how they don't spend money??

[rmc523]

Well he got $17 mil. I'm sure the Marlins asked about him. Probably weren't willing to spend that much. But we are a front runner for Jansen. Ergh

I don't understand what you're getting at. The Marlins didn't have a chance at him. He was a Phillie once he accepted the qualifying offer.

Actually, we werent in the wild card race very late in the year. We were under .500 on September 3. IF you want to continue to hold out false hope that that is somehow a contender, be my guest. But because of the advent of the 2nd wild card, every one is "very much in" the wild card race unless youre flat out awful.

Also, i'm not sure if you heard, but this under .500 team in early september that was very much in the wild card race lost a top 5 player in the sport at a position that was not a strength for us in the first place. This team is nowhere near a contender, like I said.

And if we were bottom 5 in OPS, you realize we are currently looking at going into this year with the exact same lineup, correct?

Yeah, and we also lost Bour for 2+ months and Stanton for a while.....if they were able to remain in the lineup (even one of them), we probably don't fall off when we did and end up making the playoffs.

That is such bad logic. The move is not to throw away first round picks because we havent been good at drafting, the move is to draft better and get better cheap young talent. IF the purpose of signing a big time closer was to trade him to rebuild the farm system, the move was to go as hard as possible after Chapman, not give up your first round pick, and then trade him and have the best of both worlds. Now that that is off the table, sign lesser relievers that don't require giving up draft picks, try to sign a few quality starters like Hammel and Fister, and continue to rebuild. There are no moves this team is making this offseason because of Jose's death that make us a contender, sorry to be realistic, but it's true, unless we get multiple breakouts from unlikely sources.

We did go after Chapman. We had the better offer. We were the runners-up for him. He wanted to be a Yankee. Not much you can do about that.

And i'm saying, there are ways of making the good bullpen great without giving up a first round pick on a team with the worst farm system in the league (or at least close) because there are other relievers available, and there is no telling if Jansen blows up here or gets injured, in which case youre left with no first round pick to help rebuild the farm system and an injured closer on a bad team. Uehara and Ziegler both fulfill the same type of thing you are saying would be good without having to give up a first round pick. Relievers are the easiest to find and most volatile position in baseball.

This is off topic somewhat, but part of the reason the marlins havent been to the playoffs in a long time is that single injuries kill this team more than any other team in the league. The marlins lose stanton for long periods of time, and while no team is able to sustain huge injuries consistently like that, the best teams have great depth to at the very least counter act some of those injuries. For example, the cardinals lost Wainwright and Carpenter for entire years a few different times and still made the playoffs, and even won the world series, despite losing one of their best pitchers. They were able to do this because they have an organizational philosophy of great drafting and scouting and because of this have great, young, cheap, quality depth consistently to be able to overcome injuries like that. On the flip side, the marlins draft terribly, trade terribly, and scout terribly (both their own players and other teams players), and are consistently fucked whenever they have injuries because we have crappy 30-somthing veterans as replacements rather than good young cheap players.

I'm not saying this one first round pick is going to be the end of the world if we give it up, it's the consistent organizational philosophy of not valuing good, young, cheap talent through the draft that continually leads to lost seasons due to injuries. Stanton is a huge piece of our team, and any team will be hurt badly losing him in the lineup, but the best teams have years of organizational moves that lead to better depth that allow them to lose players but not completely tank seasons. That is my biggest complaint, not this one individual move. It is this individual move in the scope of the entire organizational philosophy of not sticking to a plan due to Loria's impatience.

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Another example is the cubs were just like us in a lot of ways a few years ago when Theo took over. But years of patience, sticking to a plan and not deviating from it based on the impatience of an owner, and good drafting and scouting through trades led them to be able to quickly acquire great young talent, and because they didnt deviate from the plan, when they were finally a great team, they had the pieces to make trades to acquire talent to put them over the top.

Now obviously they are a bigger market team than us and made a few free agency signings, but they won the world series this year based on the patience of their front office and ownership as well as great drafting and scouting for years at a time, something this front office and ownership have proven they can not do.

You're preaching to the choir here. We all know Loria sucks as an owner and constantly does this "go for it, dump everyone" cycle with largely no consistent plan in between that would result in sustained success. It all comes back to money as always. He's clearly not going to spend on the draft , etc. in order to build a good all around team as the Cubs have, and who knows if he'd be spending this money if we don't sign Jansen (meaning your alternative scenario might not be realistic anyway), so why complain when he finally does spend money?

Worst case scenario, Jansen is his usual great self, the team sucks, and we trade him. Closers have a ton of value in the middle of a race....we'd be able to get multiple top prospects for him, outweighing a single top draft pick.

[fish16]

I feel like they definitely need some things to go right.
However, I think we'd be more optimistic about the team if Volquez and Chen weren't coming off terrible years. Those two guys have also had good years. Conley seems like a solid SP.

Hopefully it turns out to be an average rotation and an elite bullpen would help out with that. Mattingly should also get creative with his pen usage if Jansen signs imo.

I also agree with the front office in that I think this offense should be better than 27th in runs scored. Pending relatively good health, I think it could be a league average offense at least.

I somewhat agree then. I actually am very optimistic about Chen for some reason. No idea what happened with him last year but he is a much better pitcher than that. Volquez i also think can be a solid starter. And i've said this before but i'm very high on Conley and have been since he and Jose were in Greensboro and Jupiter together.

I dont think the offense is as good as people think though. I think we are one more power bat away offensively. Aside from Stanton and hopefully Yelich as he continues to get stronger, I think we just consistently need way to many things to be strung together to ever score runs. Dee coming back to form would help somewhat (obviously not from a power perspective), but I get the feeling Realmuto and Prado, while I love both of them as players, are due for a little bit of a regression. I really hope we sign a power hitting platoon bat for Bour though. That would be something that would make me feel a lot more comfortable about the lineup. I also am tired of these retread benches we put together, but that's not going to change any time soon.

I could totally see people thinking im pessimistic about the team and i completely understand that rationale, i'm just not hopeful about this teams chances due to a complete lack of depth and Jose's death being an absolute killer for this franchise's future (That is horrible word choice, but i didnt know what other word I could use there).

[rmc523]

I'd just like to see a consistent plan and stick to it for years rather than consistent changing plans due to Lorias whims.

It's pretty clear this will never happen with Loria as the owner.

I feel like they definitely need some things to go right.
However, I think we'd be more optimistic about the team if Volquez and Chen weren't coming off terrible years. Those two guys have also had good years. Conley seems like a solid SP.

Hopefully it turns out to be an average rotation and an elite bullpen would help out with that. Mattingly should also get creative with his pen usage if Jansen signs imo.

I also agree with the front office in that I think this offense should be better than 27th in runs scored. Pending relatively good health, I think it could be a league average offense at least.

I don't know about Volquez (hopefully Benedict works his magic), but I think Chen will be significantly improved from last year.

[lou]

People forget we are likely getting a Comp Pick which means we will lose #13 now and get like #35. 1st Rd picks are crap shoots-we are the best example of that

As for Jansen I would prefer the Ziegler and Uehara/Tazawa then sign a bat plan myself BUT I dont understand how people can complain about them trying to improve the team and spend cash by signing Jansen???

I would say, because it shouldn't be an either or. It should be do all of it. Act like a team.

Sign Jansen.
Sign Hammel or Fister
Sign a good 1B/LF who can hit lefties
Get a SS upgrade somehow
Buy out Ozuna for 4-5 years
Spend at least league average on international signings to replenish farm
Draft talent in draft, not based on paying lower than slot like Naylor

Not starting a rant, just saying, it's great they are throwing around signing some real guys - I'd LOVE Kenley - but the frustration is if you're going to do things like that, don't put one foot in the pool. Kenley says you're going for it, Jeff Locke targeted for 30 starts doesn't inspire confidence (I like the deal for the record, but he needs more competition than Nicolino/Urena for a rotation spot, etc.).

[rmc523]

I somewhat agree then. I actually am very optimistic about Chen for some reason. No idea what happened with him last year but he is a much better pitcher than that. Volquez i also think can be a solid starter. And i've said this before but i'm very high on Conley and have been since he and Jose were in Greensboro and Jupiter together.

I dont think the offense is as good as people think though. I think we are one more power bat away offensively. Aside from Stanton and hopefully Yelich as he continues to get stronger, I think we just consistently need way to many things to be strung together to ever score runs. Dee coming back to form would help somewhat (obviously not from a power perspective), but I get the feeling Realmuto and Prado, while I love both of them as players, are due for a little bit of a regression. I really hope we sign a power hitting platoon bat for Bour though. That would be something that would make me feel a lot more comfortable about the lineup. I also am tired of these retread benches we put together, but that's not going to change any time soon.

I could totally see people thinking im pessimistic about the team and i completely understand that rationale, i'm just not hopeful about this teams chances due to a complete lack of depth and Jose's death being an absolute killer for this franchise's future (That is horrible word choice, but i didnt know what other word I could use there).

I agree in that I'd like another bat (could we do something crazy and offer Encarnacion a Cespedes-esque big short term contract with an opt out?), and that Jensen alone should not be their only remaining move....other moves should (and I think will) come after that. Loria spends when the spotlight is on him, and Mattingly said yesterday that we were working on a few things starting pitching-wise after the Locke signing, so I won't be surprised to see one of the guys we're talking about sign with us.

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Agreed completely, lou. At least the first 3 need to happen for this year.

[Erick]

It shouldn't be hard to add a right-handed bat that's better than Chris Johnson. This team has a lot of trouble making moves like that for some reason, but it really shouldn't be that hard. Steve Pearce would've been perfect.

[fish16]

I agree in that I'd like another bat (could we do something crazy and offer Encarnacion a Cespedes-esque big short term contract with an opt out?), and that Jensen alone should not be their only remaining move....other moves should (and I think will) come after that. Loria spends when the spotlight is on him, and Mattingly said yesterday that we were working on a few things starting pitching-wise after the Locke signing, so I won't be surprised to see one of the guys we're talking about sign with us.

I think Encarnacion would be a fantastic signing, but he doesnt really have a position with us. I think he is a pure DH because he has been a fairly bad fielder all over. I think if we are going to sign a huge addition, i'd rather it be a huge bat rather than a closer. But i'm also just very anti-tradtional baseball in that I think finding a good closer is one of the easiest things in baseball, and if it's not going to put you over the top, spending the money elsewhere is the better move to me.

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I would say, because it shouldn't be an either or. It should be do all of it. Act like a team.

Sign Jansen.
Sign Hammel or Fister
Sign a good 1B/LF who can hit lefties
Get a SS upgrade somehow
Buy out Ozuna for 4-5 years
Spend at least league average on international signings to replenish farm
Draft talent in draft, not based on paying lower than slot like Naylor

Not starting a rant, just saying, it's great they are throwing around signing some real guys - I'd LOVE Kenley - but the frustration is if you're going to do things like that, don't put one foot in the pool. Kenley says you're going for it, Jeff Locke targeted for 30 starts doesn't inspire confidence (I like the deal for the record, but he needs more competition than Nicolino/Urena for a rotation spot, etc.).

EXACTLY. if Jansen is accompanied by a bunch of other moves that make us into something that could be considered a contender, fuck that first round pick, lets do it. But Loria is not going to do that, and i dont trust his or the front offices instincts in signing the "other" pieces to make that happen. I could see us signing Jansen and then a bunch of other guys who the front office would act as if are big pieces, but are really just re-wrapped poop.

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Also, I have no idea what we can do to get rid of Hech, but for god sakes get him out of my life. He just can not be an everyday starter in the NL. Maybe in the AL where there also isnt a P hitting, but to me the bottom of our lineup is continuously a trainwreck due to 1 injury, Hech being in the lineup, and the pitcher hitting.

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I'm in law school so i've had finals so i havent paid attention to the lesser free agent signings, but who is still available who would be a good platoon partner at 1b?

[Erick]

If we sign Jansen, I kind of hope that they trade Ramos for assets and replace Ramos with Koji (assuming they want another reliever, which isn't necessary).

[fish16]

Also, if we had the foresight that we wanted to build a super bullpen, why the fuck did we give Carter Capps away for nothing, or if we were going to trade him, why not the year before when the yankees were thinking about giving us judge for him? Again, foresight and having a plan. Just have a consistent organizational philosophy and you would hear 0 complaints from me (that is a complete lie, i'll always find something to complain about, but just have a plan for once).

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Sign Uehara, Chris Carter, Fister, and Hammel. Then sign another bench bat and i'm very ok with that.

Vazquez
Chen
Conley
Fister
Hammell
Thats about as good as you will be able to do after Jose's death, a free agency with no star pitchers, and 0 in your farm system to try and improve that.